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my cat is norris posted:I don't see a Piccolo pants smiley, do you? that was about the dumbest SA meme in the history of SA
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Nov 11, 2014 17:50
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Mordaedil posted:That is actually SSJ4. The meme's not even canon dammit
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Nov 11, 2014 18:54
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facebook jihad posted:that was about the dumbest SA meme in the history of SA Every SA meme is the dumbest SA meme in the history of SA so it all evens out
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Nov 12, 2014 00:00
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MeccaPrime posted:Every SA meme is the dumbest SA meme in the history of SA so it all evens out Agreed. Goku pants was dumb, but on a cosmic scale, is it really dumber than say,  ?
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Nov 12, 2014 11:26
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Nov 12, 2014 12:51
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At least you weren't so narcissistic and terrible you named the emoticon after yourself 
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Nov 12, 2014 16:48
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Think I saw Revan and Asuka in the crowd in today's DBM. Cameos are fun.
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Nov 12, 2014 20:02
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Yeah, that's definitely Asuka.
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Nov 12, 2014 20:15
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Spiritus Nox posted:Think I saw Revan and Asuka in the crowd in today's DBM. Cameos are fun. I don't think Revan is there. I definitely see Malak and Nihilus.
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Nov 12, 2014 21:10
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I don't think Revan is there. I definitely see Malak and Nihilus. Ah, right - I got Nihilus' mask confused with Revan's. Been ages since I played those games.
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Nov 12, 2014 21:29
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So, I have a few questions about the Androids Arc, because it always confused the hell out of me. 1. Was there any reason that the Androids were stronger than Frieza? I mean, Cell incorporated Frieza's DNA and he was weaker than 17 and 18 when he was birthed. For that matter, the power scaling of the Androids was weird in general. 19 and 20 =< Imperfect Cell (w/o Absorption) < 17 and 18 < Imperfect Cell (w/ Absorption) = Android 16 < Other Cell Forms I guess that's because Toriyama's editor made him change the main villain a few times, but I dunno for sure. 2. Why did Gero even lock up 16, anyway? He was completely loyal and devoted to the idea of killing Goku. 3. Why do 17 and 18 want to kill Goku after they wake up anyway? I mean, killing Goku was Gero's thing. Why would they want to follow his orders? 4. Why would Gero make Cell weaker than his "defective" Android 16 and the traitorous 17 and 18? Really, it just seems like Gero was really stupid.
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Nov 12, 2014 22:38
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:So, I have a few questions about the Androids Arc, because it always confused the hell out of me. quote:2. Why did Gero even lock up 16, anyway? He was completely loyal and devoted to the idea of killing Goku. quote:3. Why do 17 and 18 want to kill Goku after they wake up anyway? I mean, killing Goku was Gero's thing. Why would they want to follow his orders? quote:Really, it just seems like Gero was really stupid.
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Nov 12, 2014 22:47
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:So, I have a few questions about the Androids Arc, because it always confused the hell out of me. 1. The Androids were created based on some sort of data from Freeza and Cold's visit to Earth. Maybe they're based on Freeza's cyborg enhancements? 2. To protect him, I think. 3. Because they're bored and can't think of a constructive goal, basically. They care a lot less about fighting Goku specifically than 16 does. 4. I don't think Gero made him weaker on purpose. Cell was purely organic rather than a cyborg, which gave him greater capacity for growth, even if he didn't start out as strong.
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Nov 12, 2014 22:53
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I don't think there's a straight answer for any of that questions, so this is just speculation: 1. No reason at all, at least with #19 and #20 you could justify it with their ki absortion gimmick. Apparently Gero was able to grab two random teenagers and make them stronger than space emperors feared even by deities like it's nothing. One wonders what would happen if people like Krillin or Tien were to go through the same process. 2. Yes, but just that. He didn't think twice about trying (and almost succeeding) to kill Cell when he saw how dangerous he was for the world, so as an evil scientist he probably didn't feel safe with such a robot around. 3. Darn those teenagers, you never know what they're thinking! Well, #17 at least enjoyed fighting so it makes sense for him to go after that super powerful warrior everyone was talking about and the reason he was made like that in the first place. It was him who proposed going after Goku, right? 4. It was an entirely new technology so I think that's a good reason for him to be that... inefficient, I guess. So he had all the biological advantages of the saiyans/namekians/freeza's clan but required to absorb people and the cores of #17 and #18 to pump up the raw power.
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Nov 12, 2014 23:03
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Hearing other people's ideas on it cleared it up for me a bit. Thanks guys.
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Nov 12, 2014 23:07
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:So, I have a few questions about the Androids Arc, because it always confused the hell out of me. The Android/Cell saga wasn't really all about power/strength. It goes out of its way to focus on a lot of other aspects that make a fighter a fighter. Stealth, speed, technique, endurance are all important plot points given throughout the arc. 1) You could argue that the Androids weren't necessarily stronger than Freeza. They had the advantage of limitless endurance, outstanding power detection and no one being able to sense them whatsoever. Way back in the Saiyan Arc Piccolo explains to Gohan the only way it is really remotely possible to fight/watch fights that are happening so quick is because they can sense energy. Being unable to sense energy is kind of like fighting blindfolded for the Z crew. Freeza may have been able to keep up with Goku at 100%, but he couldn't keep his power up that high for very long. Androids didn't have that problem and could take down everyone pretty easily without ever losing their maximum stamina/speed/strength. 2) 16 was probably too freaky strong. He probably could have killed Goku easily, but the question is what do you do with him after he fulfills his only purpose? He seemed a little too easy going. He pretty much has sentience and Gero might not have trusted him to actually listen to him afterwards. He knows from Android 8 that his creations won't always do what they are told. It also apparently was designed to look like his son. It may have been too difficult for Gero to follow through on basically barking orders to his deceased son as a murder machine. 3) They are programmed that they always have a constant itch. The itch is Goku. They need to get rid of the itch. 4) Gero didn't make Cell technically. Gero thought it was a waste of time and gave up on it. Gero's computer did all the work to finish up/cultivate Cell. The computer probably didn't want to make the same mistake Gero did and create something more powerful than Gero. Instead it went back to the old energy absorption model that 19 and 20 were so they could have the potential to get stronger but couldn't immediately kill Gero when Cell was born. And this is talking about the Cell embryo that Krillen destroyed from the main timeline. We have no idea really how strong it would have become had Krillen not destroyed it. Also to make another point, the Cell that fights the Z warriors is from a timeline where 17 and 18 are significantly weaker than the mainline timeline Androids. So actually Cell wasn't necessarily weaker than his universe's 17 and 18 when he was created. Cell and Trunks going back in time screwed up the mainline time-stream and it led to the events that screwed up Trunk's predictions such as: they were fighting the wrong Androids; Goku got his heart disease much later; 17 and 18 being much stronger; 16 even existing at all. Edit:  beaten by like everyone ^^^
nonrev fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 23:21
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nonrev posted:Also to make another point, the Cell that fights the Z warriors is from a timeline where 17 and 18 are significantly weaker than the mainline timeline Androids. So actually Cell wasn't necessarily weaker than his universe's 17 and 18 when he was created. Cell and Trunks going back in time screwed up the mainline time-stream and it led to the events that screwed up Trunk's predictions such as: they were fighting the wrong Androids; Goku got his heart disease much later; 17 and 18 being much stronger; 16 even existing at all. Oh yeah, I forgot there were three Cells.
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Nov 12, 2014 23:29
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I can only think of two; the one from the "main" timeline that Krillin killed and the one from Trunks' time that jumped him and stole the time machine after he returns and kills 17 and 18. What's the third?
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Nov 12, 2014 23:49
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The Cell of Future Trunks' future. At the end of the Androids arc, he goes back home and kills 17, 18, and Imperfect Cell with his SSJ Ultra form. The main Cell of the Androids arc was from another Future Trunks' future.
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Nov 12, 2014 23:54
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Imagine four Cells on the edge of a cliff...
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Nov 12, 2014 23:56
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There's actually three timelines: the main one, the one Future Trunks came from and the one Perfect Cell came from.
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Nov 12, 2014 23:56
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Dragonatrix posted:I can only think of two; the one from the "main" timeline that Krillin killed and the one from Trunks' time that jumped him and stole the time machine after he returns and kills 17 and 18. What's the third? I thought the one that stole the time machine laid an egg in the time machine and wasn't actually the one that went back in time (this is me as a kid reading korean translations and not always understanding everything going on)
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Nov 12, 2014 23:58
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Shadowhand00 posted:I thought the one that stole the time machine laid an egg in the time machine and wasn't actually the one that went back in time. No no, it's like this. Goku's timeline had a Cell that never evolved past an embryo because Krillin killed it. Future Trunks them comes back in time before the Androids become active because 17 and 18 kill everyone in his future. He later returns and helps them out at which point he notices that another version of his time machine showed up. This is because a Cell (the main one) from another future used his time machine when Trunks killed the Androids so that he could go back in time and absorb them. Future Trunks then goes back to his timeline at the end of the series and kills 17 and 18, and the Imperfect Cell in that future tries to pull the same thing the main Cell did to the alternate Trunks. It doesn't end well for Cell.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:01
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Shadowhand00 posted:I thought the one that stole the time machine laid an egg in the time machine and wasn't actually the one that went back in time (this is me as a kid reading korean translations and not always understanding everything going on) No, he/it regressed back to egg form in order to fit in the time machine.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:02
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Some Numbers posted:There's actually three timelines: the main one, the one Future Trunks came from and the one Perfect Cell came from. From my understanding there were four timelines: 1) Dragonball Z's main timeline where Trunks kills Frieza, Cell Saga happens etc. 2) DBZ where Trunks shows up, the Androids are all killed off by the Z-fighters, and Trunks returns to his own timeline (#3) to be killed by Cell. 3) DBZ but without Trunks showing up, Goku dies of heart failure, Androids go rampaging. Trunks is born and goes back in time, returns after beating the Androids, and is killed by Cell. 4) Same as 3, but this time Trunks (from timeline #1) returns after the Cell Saga and prevents his timeline's Cell from going back in time.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:04
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Dragonatrix posted:I can only think of two; the one from the "main" timeline that Krillin killed and the one from Trunks' time that jumped him and stole the time machine after he returns and kills 17 and 18. What's the third? The one in the surviving Trunk's timeline.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:05
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But that would leave an unaccounted for Cell, since there would be two Cells with access to time machines.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:06
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EDIT: Nevermind, misread.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:06
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The Ninth Layer posted:From my understanding there were four timelines: That is correct but since we never see number 2 not even in flashbacks it usually goes unmentioned. Hobgoblin2099 posted:But that would leave an unaccounted for Cell, since there would be two Cells with access to time machines. Krillin kills timeline 1's Cell. Gohan kills timeline 3's Cell. Trunks kills timeline 4's Cell. Since Trunks shows up in 2 to tell everyone about the androids two things could have happened: 1) It's destroyed with Gero's lab. 2) Actually gets developed but since everyone is alive and kicking and a lot stronger plus no androids to absorb plus no time machine he can't really do anything dangerous. Petiso fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Nov 13, 2014 |
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Nov 13, 2014 00:14
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The Ninth Layer posted:From my understanding there were four timelines: Timeline 2 raises more questions than it answers though. How did the Androids get killed and where did that Cell go? I think if you remove Timeline 2, you get a much cleaner description that still covers everything. 1) Goku kills Freeza, the Cyborgs kill everyone, Gohan trains Trunks, Trunks goes back in time. Trunks returns here and kills 17, 18 and Cell. 2) Same as above, Cyborgs vanish, Cell kills Trunks and goes back in time. 3) Trunks comes back and kill Freeza, Cell comes back and hibernates. These events causes a "time boom," which creates 19, 20 and 16 and makes 17 and 18 stronger.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:18
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Ohhh, now I understand. You're accounting for the timeline that the other Future Trunks (killed by Perfect Cell) went to.Some Numbers posted:Timeline 2 raises more questions than it answers though. How did the Androids get killed and where did that Cell go? This is how I understood it.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:18
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Petiso posted:2) Actually gets developed but since everyone is alive and kicking and a lot stronger plus no androids to absorb plus no time machine he can't really do anything dangerous.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:20
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:The Cell of Future Trunks' future. At the end of the Androids arc, he goes back home and kills 17, 18, and Imperfect Cell with his SSJ Ultra form. In trunk's future there should be another cell who showed up from the future a year before frieza arrived on earth so it's four. nonrev posted:
There's no actual proof of this considering the only source is a guy who can't actually sense how strong they are.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:25
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gently caress trophy 2k14 posted:In trunk's future there should be another cell who showed up from the future a year before frieza arrived on earth so it's four. If that were the case, shouldn't that Cell have eaten 17 and 18 and become perfect?
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Nov 13, 2014 00:30
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Some Numbers posted:Timeline 2 raises more questions than it answers though. How did the Androids get killed and where did that Cell go? Ehh, look at timeline 2 and assume everything is the same except no Cell. Assuming Goku recovers, he alone could be powerful enough to defeat Androids 17 and 18. Trunks from the future certainly believed that Goku would be a tide-turner. Piccolo himself is strong enough to fight to a draw with 17 after fusing with Kami, and Vegeta/Trunks after the Hyperbolic Time Chamber could probably match 16 too. I don't think it's shown whether the chump Trunks that Cell kills ever reached USSJ because he gets caught off guard but it could have still happened. gently caress trophy 2k14 posted:There's no actual proof of this considering the only source is a guy who can't actually sense how strong they are. Future Trunks fought the Androids more than a few times so I'd think his opinion on their strength would be pretty reliable.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:34
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The Ninth Layer posted:Ehh, look at timeline 2 and assume everything is the same except no Cell. Assuming Goku recovers, he alone could be powerful enough to defeat Androids 17 and 18. Trunks from the future certainly believed that Goku would be a tide-turner. Piccolo himself is strong enough to fight to a draw with 17 after fusing with Kami, and Vegeta/Trunks after the Hyperbolic Time Chamber could probably match 16 too. I don't think it's shown whether the chump Trunks that Cell kills ever reached USSJ because he gets caught off guard but it could have still happened. But that raises the question of "if there's no Cell (ever) here, why does he exist in every other timeline?" What motivates the lack of Cell?
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Nov 13, 2014 00:40
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Some Numbers posted:But that raises the question of "if there's no Cell (ever) here, why does he exist in every other timeline?" What motivates the lack of Cell? For all we know there was only one Cell who ever successfully went back in time... and it's a Cell that came from a different universe than DBZ's Future Trunks. It could be possible that the Cell who was meant to return to that universe got killed before he made it, for example.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:43
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The Ninth Layer posted:Future Trunks fought the Androids more than a few times so I'd think his opinion on their strength would be pretty reliable. There's nothing stopping them from holding back to prolong the amusement.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:54
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Some Numbers posted:But that raises the question of "if there's no Cell (ever) here, why does he exist in every other timeline?" What motivates the lack of Cell? The DBZ wiki says that the unmentioned timeline 4 probably used the deactivation switch (that Krillin destroyed in the main timeline) to get rid of the androids. We can assume that everything up to that point is similar, including Krillin destroying Cell when he destroys Gero's lab. That would explain how Trunks is too weak to fight off Cell, since they used technical means to kill the androids.
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Nov 13, 2014 02:25
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Okay, fair enough, but I'm still confused as to why we're trying to kludge in a fourth timeline. What does the four timeline model account for that the three timeline model doesn't?
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Nov 13, 2014 02:38
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