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fart simpson posted:Not yet. I'm waiting to hear My Imaginary GF weigh in on this issue. It would be of great benefit to future generations of Chinese were Beijing to adopt a latin script.
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Nov 13, 2014 03:33
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My Imaginary GF posted:It would be of great benefit to future generations of Chinese were Beijing to adopt a latin script. Why?
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Nov 13, 2014 03:44
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fart simpson posted:Why? The use of logosyllabic scripts for administrative purposes in China has had a cultural impact due to the systems that have developed in order to educate populations on its use. Oversimplifying, there aren't enough patterns in logograms for writing to reflect evolution of pronunciation in a timely and scalable manner.
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Nov 13, 2014 03:58
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English hasn't had a spelling reform in like 600 years. It doesn't matter how you write, just that you do.
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Nov 13, 2014 04:43
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My Imaginary GF posted:The use of logosyllabic scripts for administrative purposes in China has had a cultural impact due to the systems that have developed in order to educate populations on its use. So?
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Nov 13, 2014 04:59
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Bloodnose posted:English hasn't had a spelling reform in like 600 years. It doesn't matter how you write, just that you do. bollocks
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Nov 13, 2014 05:02
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A British person with bad opinions on English, shocking.
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Nov 13, 2014 05:22
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Bloodnose posted:English hasn't had a spelling reform in like 600 years. It doesn't matter how you write, just that you do. If that fo?
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Nov 13, 2014 13:20
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Peeple r dum english is ez tu rite
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Nov 13, 2014 13:37
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Chinese (all the dialects really) is also really hard to understand with all the tones and homophones, so while they're adopting Latin script maybe they should also replace the whole spoken language with English.
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Nov 13, 2014 13:49
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ugh why don't these people just speak ENGLISH!!!!
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Nov 13, 2014 14:23
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Supplanter posted:Chinese (all the dialects really) is also really hard to understand with all the tones and homophones, so while they're adopting Latin script maybe they should also replace the whole spoken language with English. unironically agreed
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Nov 13, 2014 14:41
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Chinese sentence structure at least is not that bad, imo. Vocab is kind of messy still though. Also on a side note: I think it's interesting how Chinese/East Asian migrants to the US commonly adopt an "English" name whereas (e.g.) Indians do not.
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Nov 13, 2014 14:49
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Only if they want to get ahead in politics. Say hello to Piyush Jindal!
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Nov 13, 2014 15:46
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The biggest hurdle in Chinese education is the fact that from like 5 years old they teach students nothing but how to pass the Gaokao. I think the time students in English-speaking countries spend learning to spell is roughly equivalent to the time Chinese students spend drilling characters. Do you remember how much loving time was spent at school on spelling/writing alone? It was a lot. The big waste of time and inefficiency in China is teaching solely for standardized tests with no real concern for real life skills, critical thinking, or anything else Chinese people are really awful at due to their hosed up school system.
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Nov 13, 2014 15:46
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Bloodnose posted:English hasn't had a spelling reform in like 600 years. It doesn't matter how you write, just that you do. It could probably use one. gently caress silent letters.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:17
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Bloodnose posted:English hasn't had a spelling reform in like 600 years. It doesn't matter how you write, just that you do. Only true in countries with terrible school systems. (Hi USA!) systran posted:
Sounds like nothing changed since the times of Confucius.
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Nov 13, 2014 17:50
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You guys should just move on to the LAN thread and be done with it, might as well make your own memes and circle jerk each other http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3549109&pagenumber=674#lastpost Some content about Occupy HK, FSU leader Alex Chow is heading to Beijing this Saturday: http://news.mingpao.com/ins/%E5%AD%...1/1415889086664 quote:學聯暫定，將於周六按原定計劃上京，要求與北京領導人會面，將派出3至4人，當中包括秘書長周永康，而副秘書長岑敖暉則會留港。 My attempt to translate The Federation Student Union have decided to act on their plan of going to Beijing this Saturday, requesting a meeting with the leaders in Beijing. 3 or 4 people will be there including secretary Alex Chow, but vice secretary Alex Shum will stay in Hong Kong. FSU vice secretary Alex shum claimed that, the trip on Saturday will be 3 or 4 people heading to Beijing and everyone will be a FSU member. The list is not complete but Alex Chow will definitely be on the plane. Lester Shums claims that some people still haven't sorted their Home Return Permits (literally get back to your village card), but will deal with it later on
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Nov 13, 2014 18:13
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ReindeerF posted:Yeah, it's gotta be one of those words that doesn't translate well literally, but makes perfect sense figuratively. I was just curious if any of the Chinese experts here could decipher it. The J-31 is called Gyrfalcon in english according to wiki (that or Falcon Hawk, but Gyrfalcon is a pretty rad name). http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/j-21.htm <--Snowy Owl is pretty funny though. Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Nov 13, 2014 |
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Nov 13, 2014 19:08
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Riso posted:Only true in countries with terrible school systems. (Hi USA!) Is that all the English speaking ones? Or did you hide a Secret Country from America where the written form of the English language was massively overhauled? In fact, American English has had a few really small and basically meaningless spelling reforms like colour to color and centre to center but the written language still fundamentally represents a spoken form that hasn't existed for centuries. Much like Chinese! Supplanter posted:Chinese (all the dialects really) is also really hard to understand with all the tones and homophones
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Nov 13, 2014 19:10
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Bloodnose posted:In fact, American English has had a few really small and basically meaningless spelling reforms like colour to color and centre to center but the written language still fundamentally represents a spoken form that hasn't existed for centuries. How so?
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Nov 13, 2014 19:16
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computer parts posted:Chinese sentence structure at least is not that bad, imo. I notice that phenomena too. I don't know what the reason is. I am guessing its easier to pronoun Hindu name correctly in English spelling than with Chinese names in English spelling? Indian is a bad example since their official language is English. Some body should compare the rate of adopting English first name between Chinese immigrants to other East Asian immigrants. My cousin just had her second baby. She and her husband name their kids Bradley and Teresa. I really don't care these uber uber generic English names. I might name my kid a English sounding Chinese name, if and when I have a kid. Actually I have been entertaining the idea of naming my future son after me, like XX Chen, junior. This is something Chinese parent don't do. caberham posted:You guys should just move on to the LAN thread and be done with it, might as well make your own memes and circle jerk each other They are going to get ignored. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Nov 13, 2014 |
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Nov 13, 2014 19:36
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whatever7 posted:I notice that phenomena too. I don't know what the reason is. I am guessing its easier to pronoun Hindu name correctly in English spelling than with Chinese names in English spelling? If me and my girlfriend have kids we're going to alternate the first name being English and the middle name being Chinese and vice versa. That's not exactly what I meant though, like people who are just studying in the US adopt an English name. I have a friend who's from Hong Kong and intends to return once she graduates and she still adopted an English name. I guess that's still an English heritage thing but I noticed a similar thing with mainlanders too.
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Nov 13, 2014 19:42
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computer parts posted:If me and my girlfriend have kids we're going to alternate the first name being English and the middle name being Chinese and vice versa. I think that trend is slowing down. Before Chow-Yun Fat, every Chinese person who learn to speak English get themselves a English name. Recently I have seem more Chinese immigrants who just go by their Chinese name.
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Nov 13, 2014 19:47
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I figured it was just the Chinese being comfortable with having several names as it was, your baby name, your childhood nickname, your friends' nicknames for you, etc. What's one more? Plus English is trendy and cool.
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Nov 13, 2014 19:49
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blinkyzero posted:How so? Any word that has the 'gh' grapheme and most that have 'oo' represent sounds gone from modern English. It's evident in how words that are spelled this way are now often pronounced in very different ways, despite having the same sounds when the spellings were widely adopted. Though, enough, thigh, thought, tough. Blood, book, boor, moon. Those are examples off the top of my head at 3AM, but it shouldn't be controversial that written English is no less dumb and non-indicative-of-spoken-language than Chinese. Especially when mainland China had a writing reform just sixty years ago. computer parts posted:If me and my girlfriend have kids we're going to alternate the first name being English and the middle name being Chinese and vice versa. Oracle posted:I figured it was just the Chinese being comfortable with having several names as it was, your baby name, your childhood nickname, your friends' nicknames for you, etc. What's one more? Plus English is trendy and cool. This hasn't been a thing since the Xinhai Revolution though. Deep State of Mind fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Nov 13, 2014 |
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Nov 13, 2014 20:02
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Could it be that because of the common usage of English names in Hong Kong which until relatively recently was the Hollywood of Asia made it popular and cool to have an English nickname just like the movie stars?
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Nov 13, 2014 20:09
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Oracle posted:Could it be that because of the common usage of English names in Hong Kong which until relatively recently was the Hollywood of Asia made it popular and cool to have an English nickname just like the movie stars? No because public figures like movie stars are actually known by their Chinese names. It's pretty confusing.
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Nov 13, 2014 20:14
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Bloodnose posted:Any word that has the 'gh' grapheme and most that have 'oo' represent sounds gone from modern English. It's evident in how words that are spelled this way are now often pronounced in very different ways, despite having the same sounds when the spellings were widely adopted. Though, enough, thigh, thought, tough. Blood, book, boor, moon. Those are examples off the top of my head at 3AM, but it shouldn't be controversial that written English is no less dumb and non-indicative-of-spoken-language than Chinese. Especially when mainland China had a writing reform just sixty years ago. Ohhhh yeah, okay. I thought you were talking about sentence structure for some reason. Chinese orthography works just fine and I don't really buy the arguments that say it's exerted undue influence on the culture or whatever. 
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Nov 13, 2014 20:15
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Bloodnose posted:Any word that has the 'gh' grapheme and most that have 'oo' represent sounds gone from modern English. It's evident in how words that are spelled this way are now often pronounced in very different ways, despite having the same sounds when the spellings were widely adopted. Though, enough, thigh, thought, tough. Blood, book, boor, moon. Those are examples off the top of my head at 3AM, but it shouldn't be controversial that written English is no less dumb and non-indicative-of-spoken-language than Chinese. Especially when mainland China had a writing reform just sixty years ago. How would you spell "boor" and "moon" that wouldn't conflict with other phonemes/grapheme combinations?
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Nov 13, 2014 20:25
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VideoTapir posted:How would you spell "boor" and "moon" that wouldn't conflict with other phonemes/grapheme combinations? You would have to radically reform the spelling of the entire English language. For example, in IPA, based on my accent, those would be rendered /bʊɹ/ and /muːn/ respectively. Now because there are a gajillion different accents and dialects, you can't just use IPA to render everything, but it's a starting point from which to work on a reform. But my point is not that English should have a spelling reform. My point is that it doesn't need one and neither does Chinese need a change to its writing system. Repeating myself, it doesn't matter how you write, just that you do.
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Nov 13, 2014 21:07
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systran posted:The biggest hurdle in Chinese education is the fact that from like 5 years old they teach students nothing but how to pass the Gaokao. Actually this isn't true and the time spent to become literate in English is larger than most western languages due to our messed up spelling but still reasonable while the time for Chinese people to become literate in their own language is something like 2 years of 8 hour days of school work learning nothing but writing characters. This is something I never hear factored into discussions of how much 'more' Asians study than Western kids, well, subtract a good two years from their accomplishments because they wasted it on hieroglyphics. They did a study where they had a model school that taught only in pinyin and the kids who studied there blew away the normal Chinese kids in terms of test taking because they were just able to spend so much more time on other subjects. In terms of the competition of the west we should actually probably hope that they KEEP Chinese characters or we would really be hosed. Also related to the Chinese naming conventions, I believe it's related to self-confidence in their relationship to other cultures. Japanese people also generally don't adopt western names and their names are far more complex than Chinese ones, but they are generally pretty self-confident about the status of their culture. I think if you look at the experience of Chinese people in western nations, they're remarkably adept at abandoning Chinese culture, religion, language, and generally unconcerned about intermixing with the 'higher class' whites, but if you look at places where Chinese people felt themselves to be superior, they kept up a lot of their language, culture and endogamous practices like in a lot of Southeast Asia. Not to say they didn't mix but you're right to note that every Chinese kid I know takes a western name even today, but no one does it from other cultures. A kid from Slovakia whose name is Dushan won't say 'Call me Donny'. Barack Obama as the young biracial kid seeking acceptance was 'Barry' but older Barack Hussein doesn't seem to mind. This is just my own bullshit theory mind you, but I have thought about it.
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Nov 14, 2014 05:58
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Fall Sick and Die posted:Actually this isn't true and the time spent to become literate in English is larger than most western languages due to our messed up spelling but still reasonable while the time for Chinese people to become literate in their own language is something like 2 years of 8 hour days of school work learning nothing but writing characters. This is something I never hear factored into discussions of how much 'more' Asians study than Western kids, well, subtract a good two years from their accomplishments because they wasted it on hieroglyphics. They did a study where they had a model school that taught only in pinyin and the kids who studied there blew away the normal Chinese kids in terms of test taking because they were just able to spend so much more time on other subjects. In terms of the competition of the west we should actually probably hope that they KEEP Chinese characters or we would really be hosed. I have both a Chinese and an English name. I was born in the United States, but my parents were immigrants from the mainland. Most of my relatives who were not born in the US (even those who crossed over before they were 10) continue to go by the transliterations of their Chinese name. I think it's more complex than "higher class" or social status especially since so many Chinese Americans outperform white Americans regarding occupational status, household income, or whatever. Furthermore, regardless if they are rich or poor, the vast majority of my unassimilated family members continue to be blatantly racist and to look down on white people as lazy, selfish, uncultured, etc. Personally, I go by my English name since that's what all of the people my generation know me as. I mostly just don't want to go through the bullshit of trying to teach someone how to not butcher my name, especially since I speak a dialect of Chinese that few people would recognize anyways. On that note, I completely agree with you that Chinese is ridiculously complex and difficult, but I suppose this is at least partly due to the fact that I didn't learn Mandarin until starting college.
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Nov 14, 2014 06:17
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computer parts posted:Chinese sentence structure at least is not that bad, imo. My guess is it's to do with language class pedagogical practice. In most language classes you're given a name in the language being taught (so in Spanish, French and German class "John" would be "Juan", "Jean" and "Hans" respectively). It's good practice because it allows students to practice saying names correctly, and creates more of a second-language environment. In India English isn't taught as a second language. In China, English is taught as a foreign language, in India as a second or first language.
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Nov 14, 2014 06:58
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Fall Sick and Die posted:Actually this isn't true and the time spent to become literate in English is larger than most western languages due to our messed up spelling but still reasonable while the time for Chinese people to become literate in their own language is something like 2 years of 8 hour days of school work learning nothing but writing characters. This is something I never hear factored into discussions of how much 'more' Asians study than Western kids, well, subtract a good two years from their accomplishments because they wasted it on hieroglyphics. They did a study where they had a model school that taught only in pinyin and the kids who studied there blew away the normal Chinese kids in terms of test taking because they were just able to spend so much more time on other subjects. In terms of the competition of the west we should actually probably hope that they KEEP Chinese characters or we would really be hosed. Are characters commonly glossed with pinyin like kana in Japanese, or are you poo poo out of luck if you're a kid reading a book and don't know how to read some character?
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Nov 14, 2014 07:07
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computer parts posted:Also on a side note: I think it's interesting how Chinese/East Asian migrants to the US commonly adopt an "English" name whereas (e.g.) Indians do not. this isn't universally true, and the Indians that don't will often at least take on shortened versions of their names, in my experience at least. see: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7sr3t_jonathan_shortfilms Fall Sick and Die posted:Japanese people also generally don't adopt western names and their names are far more complex than Chinese ones, but they are generally pretty self-confident about the status of their culture. i'd always heard that phonetically Japanese was a lot easier for English speakers to pronounce than Chinese though and again anecdotal, but in my experience most of the Japanese people i know take English or shortened names too. which might not be the norm, but i'd like to actually see? does anyone know somewhere with a list of a whole bunch of Chinese/Japanese/Indian Americans or whatever for a comparison, to see if there is actually a difference
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Nov 14, 2014 07:22
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icantfindaname posted:Are characters commonly glossed with pinyin like kana in Japanese, or are you poo poo out of luck if you're a kid reading a book and don't know how to read some character? Chinese children's books have pinyin over the characters. Once you're a grown up you check your dictionary.
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Nov 14, 2014 07:31
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What do they do in HK and Taiwan?
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Nov 14, 2014 07:36
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Snipee posted:
Agreed. Hospitals, DMV, graduation ceremony, whatever it is, it's a hassle. VideoTapir posted:What do they do in HK and Taiwan? It's hosed up. People buy books from Taiwan and it's full of symbols which nobody understands. Or they use cheaper books from mainland China full of pinyin. But yeah, it's poo poo out of luck if you can't read it 
caberham fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Nov 14, 2014 |
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Nov 14, 2014 07:37
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VideoTapir posted:What do they do in HK and Taiwan? A lot of Taiwanese books, especially kids books, have bopomofo subs.
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Nov 14, 2014 07:39
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