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To be fair Clegg is the MP for Sheffield Hallem so it is very much within his remit to comment on a big news story about the city.Ninpo posted:He's also contributed to the misery of more individuals than Ched Evans has so he can gently caress off. jesus WEP fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Nov 15, 2014 |
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Nov 14, 2014 22:43
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St Evan Echoes posted:To be fair Clegg is the MP for Sheffield Hallem so it is very much within his remit to comment on a big news story about the city. He's also contributed to the misery of more individuals than Ched Evans has so he can gently caress off.
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Nov 14, 2014 23:53
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Mickolution posted:I'm not defending him for a second or saying he should be let play again automatically, but I don't buy this whole "players as role models" thing. He was a professional footballer because he was good enough to be, not because of any moral character he may or may not have. it's not about moral character, nobody expects footballers to be outstanding paragons of virtue. it's about how, as a footballer playing for a fairly reputable team (yeah yeah they're league one, but sheffield is a fairly big city), he has a certain obligation to act responsibly and you know, not rape women when they are passed out, just because he is a public figure. tough, but that's what you get for being a footballer.
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Nov 15, 2014 00:55
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As a poster on a fairly respectable forum you have a certain obligation to act responsibly and you know, use capital letters.
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Nov 15, 2014 01:02
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Suarez has committed Assault 2nd on three separate televised occasions and starts for Barcelona. Evan's only barrier to play is that he's not good enough for a first-tier team to want his services.
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Nov 15, 2014 01:03
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Reprisal posted:Suarez has committed Assault 2nd on three separate televised occasions and starts for Barcelona. Evan's only barrier to play is that he's not good enough for a first-tier team to want his services. Suarez got punished inside the bounds of acts happening during a football match and eventually got chased out of leagues with standards and into a tin pot second tier league. The long and short of the Ched Evans saga is if he admitted fault, showed remorse and moved on this wouldn't be an issue.
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Nov 15, 2014 03:28
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Byolante posted:Suarez got punished inside the bounds of acts happening during a football match and eventually got chased out of leagues with standards and into a tin pot second tier league. The long and short of the Ched Evans saga is if he admitted fault, showed remorse and moved on this wouldn't be an issue. Yes it would, the only difference would be some athlete and sponsors would be pissy over a self confessed rapist being involved with Sheffield United.
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Nov 15, 2014 04:41
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Byolante posted:Suarez got punished inside the bounds of acts happening during a football match and eventually got chased out of leagues with standards and into a tin pot second tier league. The long and short of the Ched Evans saga is if he admitted fault, showed remorse and moved on this wouldn't be an issue. It is illegal for an admission of guilt to be considered a condition of a prisoner's release and reintegration in this country for reasons that should be obvious. He is under no obligation to admit or apologise for anything.
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Nov 15, 2014 09:38
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Reprisal posted:Suarez has committed Assault 2nd on three separate televised occasions and starts for Barcelona. Evan's only barrier to play is that he's not good enough for a first-tier team to want his services. I was wondering when I'd see the "Luis Suarez is worse than Ched Evans" post.
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Nov 15, 2014 11:37
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sassassin posted:It is illegal for an admission of guilt to be considered a condition of a prisoner's release and reintegration in this country for reasons that should be obvious. I'm not disagreeing with this, but at the same time his initial response when he came out in doing the video with his wife was about as ill judged as you can get.
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Nov 15, 2014 11:58
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Chocolate Teapot posted:I was wondering when I'd see the "Luis Suarez is worse than Ched Evans" post. That's not what was said though. If Ched Evans was as good as Luis Suarez he probably wouldn't be struggling to find a club and to be perfectly honest, with all the extra money he'd have from being much better than he is, may not even have been convicted at all.
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Nov 15, 2014 14:19
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AFAR
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Nov 15, 2014 15:38
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the post so nice he made it twice
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Nov 15, 2014 15:39
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I haven't been properly rehabilitated and I'll post again.
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Nov 15, 2014 15:43
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Can I suggest anyone here thinking Ched Evans should be allowed back in the game go and find a friend or family member who has been raped and ask them how about their experience? That's if you have anyone that would trust you enough to share that with you. Because you might change your tune.
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Nov 15, 2014 16:52
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What jobs do you think it is appropriate for Ched Evans to have then?
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Nov 15, 2014 16:57
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Jobs outside the public eye?
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Nov 15, 2014 16:57
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CareyB posted:Can I suggest anyone here thinking Ched Evans should be allowed back in the game go and find a friend or family member who has been raped and ask them how about their experience? That's if you have anyone that would trust you enough to share that with you. There are currently players playing professional football who have caused the deaths of people, in one case children. Why is ched Evans worse than those players?
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Nov 15, 2014 16:57
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I don't see how the whole world is getting on Ched Evans back about how he's "scum" and "shouldn't play football ever again" but Lee Hughes - who killed somebody while drink driving and then fled the scene is allowed back into football post-prison having served his time and had his punishment without any real fuss?
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Nov 15, 2014 16:58
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CareyB posted:Jobs outside the public eye? Like what, a PE Teacher?
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Nov 15, 2014 16:59
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CareyB posted:Jobs outside the public eye? What jobs do you think he's qualified for that pay the same as a professional footballer?
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Nov 15, 2014 17:01
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stickyfngrdboy posted:There are currently players playing professional football who have caused the deaths of people, in one case children. Why is ched Evans worse than those players? I didn't say this? I would agree that a murderer drink driver should not be allowed to play football either. I also think people shouldn't buy Chris Browns music cos he beats up women but they do. What I'm saying is people should understood the effect that things like rape have on people, and not just the victims, but their families, friends and future children and so on. Eau de MacGowan posted:Like what, a PE Teacher? he cant be a PE teacher you moron.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:03
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Total Meatlove posted:What jobs do you think he's qualified for that pay the same as a professional footballer? Probably none as he trained all his life to a professional footballer?
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Nov 15, 2014 17:04
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CareyB posted:Probably none as he trained all his life to a professional footballer? Why do you think he should not be allowed to play professional football? What's the actual reason I mean, other than 'rape is bad...'
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Nov 15, 2014 17:15
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Essentially what you're arguing for is reduced liberties for ex-felons. What Ched Evans did was terrible. Consequently, Ched Evans went to jail for it. This was his punishment. Now he's out of jail, he must assume the exact same liberties he had before - as galling as that seems - or we should just admit the fundaments of our society are fraudulent and execute him.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:16
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don't think anyone is arguing that he should be legally barred from playing professional football again but the public have the right to lobby clubs looking at signing him to reconsider
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Nov 15, 2014 17:25
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I get the feeling the main argument against having a convicted rapist playing in a football team is the impact they have in their communities, and it's a sensible point to make. However, it is also irresponsible of people to expect footballers to set moral standards as they, the footballers, are undereducated manchildren who trained for their whole life to excel at the sport while putting all other things aside. But what do you make of that?
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Nov 15, 2014 17:26
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Eau de MacGowan posted:Essentially what you're arguing for is reduced liberties for ex-felons. Part of his punishment is to be put on the sex offenders registry for life and have to notify authorities if he ever wants to leave the country or go near a school or playground, but strangely enough it says nothing about being 'in the public eye' however we choose to define that.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:27
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advanced statsman posted:I get the feeling the main argument against having a convicted rapist playing in a football team is the impact they have in their communities, and it's a sensible point to make. However, it is also irresponsible of people to expect footballers to set moral standards as they, the footballers, are undereducated manchildren who trained for their whole life to excel at the sport while putting all other things aside. But what do you make of that? Yeah that's the problem really, most footballers just aren't socially aware. I dunno what you can do about that apart from using schools to instill from a young age (in everybody) that your actions have consequences, knowing about consent etc.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:32
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stickyfngrdboy posted:Why do you think he should not be allowed to play professional football? What's the actual reason I mean, other than 'rape is bad...' 1: The victim will have to see this person in local media week in week out, on the back of football shirts, maybe any time she hears the words "Sheffield United" she will be reminded on some level about this experience. Why is that fair for her? 2: The message it sends out to people is the wrong message. Numpty's on Twitter saying they hope Ched Evans rapes Jessica Ennis is a fine example. People don't understand that these things are wrong, they think they are innocuous comments that are just pixels on a screen, but they do actually effect people, they do actually lead to decisions, and ways of thinking, that ultimately compartmentalise rape as something that is ok. And that is all because they don't understand the effect it has on these people, because they've never experienced it in any way. If Ennis now has to walk around Sheffield thinking "I got hundreds of abusive messages on twitter threatening to rape me... what if one of them carries it out?" is that fair?! I'll go a bit off track here but I feel it's relevant. People are inspired to do things in ways that are difficult to understand. One day at school I asked a guy who got right into nicking cars what was it that got him started on that and he said, quite bluntly, that it was the film Gone in 60 seconds. He said he'd never even considered it before that, but after watching the film thought it looked like harmless fun, and just started doing it. Now I'm not saying we should ban films that show vehicle theft, what I'm saying is people do absorb everything that is fed to them in their own way, which inspires their future decision making process. How this is dealt with will effect people in their own way. I watched an interesting TED talk the other day from a guy who fought infectious disease in Africa, and came back to the USA and ended up basically solving violent crime in cities by essentially removing the "essence" of violent crime from the system. Theory being if there is no violent crime to begin with, none will be carried out in future. Because as humans we make decisions based on our past experiences, doing what we feel at any given moment is the right thing to do. If we don't know of, or experience rape, then we would not know to do it. Allowing this saga to carry on basically keeps the conversation of rape flowing, leading to more rape. Are you happy with that? Here's an infographic from the TED site showing this, with the interesting quote "The greatest predictor of violence is a preceding case of violence" http://tedideas.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/superinteressante_slutkin.jpg?w=770&h=1052 For the record I'm a huge believer in reform and rehab over long prison sentences and punishment because I believe everything can be explained by a persons prior experiences (like I would not be cool about finding a pissed bird in the street, taking her to my already booked hotel room and inviting my mate to come and join me in smashing her - but I can understand that in someone else's mind it's been imparted in them that this is a.o.k (that doesn't make it ok though as we all know..)) but as things stand we live in a society that really hasn't woken up to the effects of actions on the victims, or the possibility of future crime being commited due to some esoteric thinking of well he got away with it (ie can go on living his life as planned, girlfriend, cushy job and all) so it must all be fine at the end of the day, no harm no foul. I am way too hung over for all this typing so if anything needs clarification please ask.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:43
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CareyB posted:For the record I'm a huge believer in reform and rehab over long prison sentences and punishment It really doesn't sound like you are.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:47
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sassassin posted:It really doesn't sound like you are. I believe in education. Unfortunately you can't reach out to every single person and get them to see things differently all at once. You have to deal with things as you best can, which, for me, as things stand, is removing the whole idea of rapists being allowed to continue living life in a privileged position like there's no long term effects, because for other people, there will be.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:51
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If anyone thinks Ched Evans playing football is going to lead to an increase in children raping people theyre a literal moron. The only reasons he wouldn't be allowed back into football are punitive in nature.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:52
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CareyB posted:I believe in education. Unfortunately you can't reach out to every single person and get them to see things differently all at once. You have to deal with things as you best can, which, for me, as things stand, is removing the whole idea of rapists being allowed to continue living life in a privileged position like there's no long term effects, because for other people, there will be. You're arguing that criminals should never be allowed to be successful or happy again, which is the opposite of rehabilitation and reintegration.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:55
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blue footed boobie posted:If anyone thinks Ched Evans playing football is going to lead to an increase in children raping people theyre a literal moron. The only reasons he wouldn't be allowed back into football are punitive in nature. How do you know, or how can you say, what the effects of Ched Evans continuing to play football are? You say I'm a literal moron but you might want to look into how the brain works, how humans operate according to fundamental laws of nature and survival. The proof is literally there, I posted it, if you bother to investigate yourself instead of essentially saying well this would not effect ME in this way how could it effect anyone else in this way. It does mate, sorry for this blast of reality. People vote UKIP because they have a problem with immigrants. Ask anyone what an immigrant has done to sleight them personally and they never have an answer, ever. They are just told over and over and over again that immigrants are bad, the burka is bad, be scared of these people cos theyre different, and low and behold people start to believe it and build a reality around it.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:58
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Ched Evans has to play football in order to be happy or successful? What's he going to do when he turns 35 and he can't play anymore?blue footed boobie posted:If anyone thinks Ched Evans playing football is going to lead to an increase in children raping people theyre a literal moron. The only reasons he wouldn't be allowed back into football are punitive in nature. Or maybe a football organization just doesn't want to lose money by being associated with a rapist?
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Nov 15, 2014 17:58
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Where do you draw the line exactly between a 'privileged position' and a suitably 'mundane' lifestyle? Should he be forbidden from anything above minimum wage?
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Nov 15, 2014 17:59
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sassassin posted:You're arguing that criminals should never be allowed to be successful or happy again, which is the opposite of rehabilitation and reintegration. No I'm not. I'm saying that convicted rapists and murders who have not atoned or been rehabilitated should not be in positions of power and influence.
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Nov 15, 2014 17:59
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Eau de MacGowan posted:Where do you draw the line exactly between a 'privileged position' and a suitably 'mundane' lifestyle? Should he be forbidden from anything above minimum wage? I wish people would stop talking about this from a money perspective. Money has nothing to do with this at all. Edit: by privilegded position of power and/or influence it's based on that persons connection with the general public. Footballers have quite a lot of that. Teachers have a lot of that too, as do doctors, and as has been said, he can no longer do either of those jobs.
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Nov 15, 2014 18:03
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CareyB posted:No I'm not. I'm saying that convicted rapists and murders who have not atoned or been rehabilitated should not be in positions of power and influence. Who defines what these positions are? The law has already decided which professions are unsuitable for convicted rapists but you've apparently got some different standards in mind.
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Nov 15, 2014 18:04
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