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Lampsacus posted:Hey theists/christians of this thread. What would it take for you to stop believing?
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Nov 17, 2014 08:56
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Lampsacus posted:Hey theists/christians of this thread. What would it take for you to stop believing? Vulgar scientism, and lots of it!
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Nov 17, 2014 09:24
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Kyrie eleison posted:I can tell you the real answer, but you probably won't like it. God regularly condemns entire peoples and uses other peoples to wipe them out. This scenario effectively plays out in reverse later when the Kingdom of Israel is totally destroyed by neighboring kingdoms, who are believed to be acting as agents of God to punish Israel. There's methods people use to hand-wave this stuff, but it's there and it's a recurring theme throughout the OT, so I'll just tell you the truth about it. That's all well and good, but you are interpreting this as a descriptive statement, which evades the fact that it is a prescriptive command. God is not saying this is how civilizations behave, He is telling His chosen people to act this way even if they are inclined towards peace and mercy. Do you not insult God by denying that rape and genocide are His explicit will, not as an artifact of the fallen world but of His people acting according to his stated laws?
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Nov 17, 2014 09:30
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Nessus posted:If I can make a Tolkien analogy, the God you are outlining here sounds a lot more like Melkor than Iluvatar. He is cruel and beyond questioning, uncaring about the fate of the smaller ones - or worse, saying that great horror is justified by some long-off future positive benefit, which certainly seems like a wonderful excuse for whatever genocides, purges, social abuses and other horrible things a particular ruler or kingdom might care to inflict. Are you sure that you're backing the right horse? I agree it might appear that way since we are talking about religious justification of genocide, rape, and slavery, after all. But it is a part of all ancient religions, including Christianity, the other Abrahamic branches, and yes, even Buddhism. It is complementary to the act of war, that it be holy war, that it be total and full and put the enemy "under the ban." But an interesting thing one observes as xhe reads the Bible is the way the tone becomes increasingly moderated and self-critical. By the time you're in the "wisdom books" of the later portion of the OT, such as Proverbs or Ecclesiastes or Job, one finds a different idea of the faith than one had in the time of Moses and Joshua. And Christianity is, of course, a major self-criticism of Judaism, trying to elevate these higher values of the "wisdom books" into being the central values of the faith, in place of the strict legalism of the Pharisees. Essentially, the idea that "hey, maybe this stuff is kind of bad" was not lost on many (any?) of the descendants of the religion, even in the time of the Kingdom of Israel, where the religion starts to fall apart and multicultural values seep in, the false prophets and evil kings and traitors run rampant, institutions are no longer observed, resulting in their eventual routing. One finds it a theological problem to work around, but one can never truly deny, not if he wishes to stay consistent, that God did command his people to slaughter and enslave other societies. It is one of many puzzles as we try to understand the people of the past and their divine inspiration when doing acts that seem barbaric to us, but they saw as civilizing the world. Tolkien was Catholic, by the way. Lots of Catholic themes in LOTR. quote:As for your theory of religious belief and its values, despite your cruel words of Islam - did not the Muslims conquer huge swaths of territory within several generations, while it took the Spanish hundreds of years to merely, just, take back Spain? If religious values equal military and cultural strength, this would imply that Islam, at least, can match Christianity in its cultural effect; even if you're going to say that Spain was impious and therefore was occupied by Muslims for centuries, the opposite case could probably be made, i.e. Islamic kingdoms were founded and eventually collapsed. Islam was strong at that time, and conquering Christian lands, but Christianity renewed its strength and fought back. Today, Christianity is weak in Europe, and Islam seeps in; but, Islam is actually in decay internally. Like the rest of the world, it is succumbing to modernist fantasies that religion can be forgotten, and is not with us forever, embedded in our cultural DNA. Things like ISIS are a reaction to this spiritual decay, not a sign of strength. They are a last gasp. quote:Alternately, you're boiling down an incredibly complex socioeconomic and cultural factor into a single overall trait, which only makes sense if it's supposed to be your reputation score with God. In which case I would ask, what determines the outcome of conflicts between other civilizations, in the areas which had the severe misfortune to not be ancient Israel? A correction, and an apology for being confusing earlier: God does not directly command, say, the Babylonians to overrun Israel, rather, he withdraws his divine protection from Israel. The barbarians are always seen to be at the gates, ready to destroy everything. Only the holy war of the Israelites was truly holy, in a biblical sense. All the rest of it is just viewed as heathens killing one another for their false idols of wood and stone. War between barbarians does not appear to have any religious significance. quote:On Islam, why is this offensive? I can say as a non-Christian that the focus on the torture and death of your central figure is kind of creepy. I understand why it's important, but it seems as if Jesus's life and teachings are less important than his agonizing death. Islam does not, I gather, question Jesus's moral teachings, and in fact I believe in their apocalyptic scenarios, Jesus has a starring role - larger than Muhammad! It is offensive to the sufferings of Christ to claim they never occurred, an insulting attempt to write Our Lord's crucifixion out of history. And the justification used for it -- that God would never hurt one of his prophets -- is absurd, considering so many of the other prophets suffered as well, to the point Jesus gave parables, such as that of the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, which is an allegory for the Israelites' mistreatment and murdering of the prophets, and a prophecy of his own death at their hands. Oh, but sure, Islam supposedly respects his teachings! *rolleyes* Except it doesn't, just take all of the words of Jesus and replace them with words of Muhammad (spoken as a baby in a cradle at times), change everything else fundamental to the story, and that's Isa. quote:On Judaism, what do you think about the historical treatment of the Jews by Christians? Not significantly different than Judaism's historical treatment of "resident aliens" in their society, judging by the Bible, despite plenty of kind words about how they should be treated. *shrug* People are people and culture is a real concept and generally speaking Christians prefer to live with Christians and I imagine Jews prefer to live with Jews. Having two contradictory religions in the same space will inevitably cause conflict. Just look at India and Pakistan. Lampsacus posted:Hey theists/christians of this thread. What would it take for you to stop believing? I might doubt again if the Creator of the universe revealed Himself to us and said, "uhh I have nothing to do with that Bible stuff"
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Nov 17, 2014 10:46
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Kyrie eleison posted:I agree it might appear that way since we are talking about religious justification of genocide, rape, and slavery, after all. But it is a part of all ancient religions, including Christianity, the other Abrahamic branches, and yes, even Buddhism. It is complementary to the act of war, that it be holy war, that it be total and full and put the enemy "under the ban." But an interesting thing one observes as xhe reads the Bible is the way the tone becomes increasingly moderated and self-critical. By the time you're in the "wisdom books" of the later portion of the OT, such as Proverbs or Ecclesiastes or Job, one finds a different idea of the faith than one had in the time of Moses and Joshua. And Christianity is, of course, a major self-criticism of Judaism, trying to elevate these higher values of the "wisdom books" into being the central values of the faith, in place of the strict legalism of the Pharisees. Essentially, the idea that "hey, maybe this stuff is kind of bad" was not lost on many (any?) of the descendants of the religion, even in the time of the Kingdom of Israel, where the religion starts to fall apart and multicultural values seep in, the false prophets and evil kings and traitors run rampant, institutions are no longer observed, resulting in their eventual routing. One finds it a theological problem to work around, but one can never truly deny, not if he wishes to stay consistent, that God did command his people to slaughter and enslave other societies. It is one of many puzzles as we try to understand the people of the past and their divine inspiration when doing acts that seem barbaric to us, but they saw as civilizing the world. I mean it sounds like you're saying "any civilization that stops murdering and enslaving its neighbors wantonly will inevitably decay and collapse." You're even kind of drawing a connection between 'when the religion's adherents start going "hm, maybe we should consider not just slaughtering and enslaving our neighbors"' and 'multicultural bad thing decay'. This seems very close to the celebration of militarism and violent action for its own sake in certain 20th century political movements. Have you considered that? Is God, in your view and your theology, a fascist?
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Nov 17, 2014 10:59
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Kyrie eleison posted:
Yeah, I thought as much, just circular logic. Also the theory about religiosity predicting poo poo is poo poo, but you know that.
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Nov 17, 2014 12:43
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Kyrie eleison posted:I will give you three sentences in response to your three sentences: (1) The Catholic church is human and not without corruption, but on the whole does believe in forgiveness. (2) Suffering is considered a spiritual pursuit and people willingly went to Blessed Teresa's hospices for a spiritual death, not medical assistance. (3) The Church views sexually depraved culture as the source of STDs (and other consequences) and so does not wish to encourage it. 1.Soooo....in other words, not as superior as you make it out to be. 2. No, they didn't, her clinics were supposed to be TREATING the patients, not 'bringing them closer to god'. I'd also point out that the clinics were setup in places where people hardly had other choices. If the church is going to back those who cause suffering in the name of God, its hardly a group worth support. 3. Man, if only there was something that helped fight the spread of STDs....like encouraging safe sex. Because telling people NOT to have sex has worked so well. I'm starting to see what Obdicut is talking about, a LOT of circular logic. Also: Supremacy of the Catholic Theology? Yeah, no bias or anything. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 13:38
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Kyrie eleison posted:There is no proof aside for the testimony of early Christians, the success of Christianity itself, and any subsequent miracles. We believe that miracles occur at every Mass, as the bread and wine is transubstantiated to the Body and Blood of Christ before our very eyes. Any scientific analysis will reveal it to have all of the properties of bread and wine, but in a similar way, we have Dr. Manhattan giving his opinion on the materially inobservable nature of life itself: That's a fallacy, though. A placebo can have a substantial medical effect on a believer, even though it has no actual medical effect whatsoever. For many people, believing something will have an effect literally makes it so - completely independent of the existence of any deity. How do you measure the spiritual effect of a consecrated Eucharist versus a plain cracker served during a mass? How would that compare to a humanistic control act, say some kind of community service that builds a similar emotional connection? In a sense religion is actually a rather selfish system since it's tying the "feel-good community bonding" experience to meaningless rituals rather than things that actually effect positive change in people's lives. Humanity would be better off with people giving an hour of community service every week instead of sitting in gilded buildings and jerking themselves off about how great they are. In terms of helping the needy and the poor - some of the core tenents of christiantiy - going to church is effectively and morally equivalent to sitting at home playing nintendo, or taking MDMA. It pushes your brain's buttons, but it's ultimately false and self-indulgent. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 14:00
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How come none of the many "lost tribes" still being discovered today, ever walk out or the jungle and say "Hi, have you guys heard about Jesus?" Why is every single person that "finds" God at the very least exposed to it daily their whole life?
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Nov 17, 2014 14:19
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edit: nm
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Nov 17, 2014 14:24
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I think we owe it to our species and life in general to continue to strive for growth in our brains and try to lift out heads out of the muck we found ourselves born in. Religion, especially in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, and especially the sort that says, "Dave isn't the messiah, Mike is," (or just the kind that says there's a messiah at all) is so much regression.
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Nov 17, 2014 14:32
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Kyrie eleison posted:This corroborates it? The priest gives him food which, according to the levitical law, only the priests are supposed to be able to eat (Leviticus 24:9). This violates the letter of the law for a higher purpose. Jesus was very well educated in scripture and cited it often.. That's bread in the tabernacle itself, not just consecrated bread. Like I said, making poo poo up
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Nov 17, 2014 15:01
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Is this a troll thread? I honestly can't tell.
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Nov 17, 2014 15:28
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Ninjasaurus posted:Is this a troll thread? I honestly can't tell. I'm hoping it is.
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Nov 17, 2014 15:29
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CommieGIR posted:I'm hoping it is. There's really only one motivation for creating a thread designed to attract all of the extreme left hardcore atheists in D&D.
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Nov 17, 2014 15:32
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Ugh, a Catholic. You, who in truth cast down god and worship the devil, represented by your human "father", are actually willing to start a thread about how Catholicism is the way to Christ? You truly think your idolatry, your usurping of the divine by those who advocated that god's love could be bought with a suitable donation, is the way to Christ? It's disgusting. The Bible teaches that only Jesus is the source of salvation, and yet your Church argues that Jesus is not enough. It plants itself firmly between man and god. How do you reconcile the blasphemy of your "pope", who holds himself up as the equal of Jesus Christ? quote:Colossians 1:18 "And Christ is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Jesus is the head of his church, even in death. Why would you deny this in favour of a human being? In favour of an institution that has shown itself to be in service, yes, but clearly in service to a being other than the one true god. Do you even realize that you are serving the Devil in building his kingdom here on earth, though the Catholic Church? Perhaps you should consider it. Salvation is still possible, but you must stop doing his work and renounce your faith in him. Turn instead to the true god - read the Bible, and obey it's rules, and be satisfied that you will receive your reward after death. Fight against those like the Church who would raise false idols. The Bible says "There is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2:5,6), and yet your Church as replaced him yet again, as it replaced him as the head of the Church, has peddled the blatant blasphemies that "in Mary is effected the reconciliation of God with humanity" (On Reconciliation and Penance. St. Paul Editions, p. 139). It has risen up the Saints, mere humans, as divine agents, and it's aim has always been the same. It's the aim of transubstantiation, where the powers of the church claim to be able to command and control the Lord our Creator, it's the aim of claiming that only the Catholic Church can save your soul, their tithing is collected to insure their domination here on earth as the servant of the one who was given power here on Earth, to lead souls astray. The aim of the Catholic Church is turn people away from the one true god, and into service of their true lord and saviour Satan. I am begging you, if you value your soul, renounce them. It is not too late. quote:Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
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Nov 17, 2014 16:01
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Hey guys, what going on in this thread here ...GlyphGryph posted:Ugh, a Catholic. You, who in truth cast down god and worship the devil, represented by your human "father", are actually willing to start a thread about how Catholicism is the way to Christ? You truly think your idolatry, your usurping of the divine by those who advocated that god's love could be bought with a suitable donation, is the way to Christ? 
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Nov 17, 2014 16:12
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Paul MaudDib posted:That's a fallacy, though. A placebo can have a substantial medical effect on a believer, even though it has no actual medical effect whatsoever. For many people, believing something will have an effect literally makes it so - completely independent of the existence of any deity. Miltank fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 16:12
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Have you seen someone cast a spell
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Nov 17, 2014 16:16
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I assume you quoted the wrong thingMiltank posted:
Fixed Edit: VVVVV 
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Nov 17, 2014 16:35
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Ninjasaurus posted:There's really only one motivation for creating a thread designed to attract all of the extreme left hardcore atheists in D&D. At least he's arguing in his own words, instead of being like "here's a link to the Bible, I think you'll find it is true a priori." 
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Nov 17, 2014 16:35
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Has anyone considered the possibility that I am god and this thread is my ultimate and final plan, and, after you finish reading this divine revelation, the world will end? Problem of evil spoilers: I'm a racist, classist rear end in a top hat
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Nov 17, 2014 16:42
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ikanreed posted:Has anyone considered the possibility that I am god and this thread is my ultimate and final plan, and, after you finish reading this divine revelation, the world will end? Sure, I mean I already have faith the sun will come up tomorrow and made plans depending on it, so at this point I'm logically compelled to believe whatever.
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Nov 17, 2014 16:45
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ikanreed posted:Has anyone considered the possibility that I am god and this thread is my ultimate and final plan, and, after you finish reading this divine revelation, the world will end? You forgot misogynistic and genocidal
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Nov 17, 2014 17:05
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CommieGIR posted:2. No, they didn't, her clinics were supposed to be TREATING the patients, not 'bringing them closer to god'. I'd also point out that the clinics were setup in places where people hardly had other choices. If the church is going to back those who cause suffering in the name of God, its hardly a group worth support. Hospices aren't clinics where people receive treatment for an illness in order to get better. They are places for the chronically / terminally ill who don't have anyone to take care of them. The first hospice she opened was even called 'Kalighat Home for the Dying', so the intent of these places was pretty clear. Running a completely free hospice that doesn't have all the advantages of palliative care like you'd receive in a Western hospital isn't a malicious act to cause suffering in the name of God. If the Indian government, or Christopher Hitchens, or anyone else wants to provide better care they're certainly welcome to do so.
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Nov 17, 2014 17:26
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So here's something that always stumped me. Evidently, a lot of Christians believe that Jesus did the 'harrowing of hell' thing where he freed every good person that had died before he'd been crucified. Not really mentioned at all in the Bible and more a later invention, but whatever. What about the people that were, say, born in an area of the world right after Jesus died (say, the Amazon rainforest) where they never heard of Christianity, and indeed never could have had the opportunity to learn about it? "Man, looks like God gave you the short end of the stick there. Sorry, I don't make the rules. Eternal hellfire for you!  "
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Nov 17, 2014 18:03
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itsnice2bnice posted:Hospices aren't clinics where people receive treatment for an illness in order to get better. They are places for the chronically / terminally ill who don't have anyone to take care of them. The first hospice she opened was even called 'Kalighat Home for the Dying', so the intent of these places was pretty clear. I think you and I have different definitions of 'taking care of' people.
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Nov 17, 2014 18:05
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Do you even know what a hospice is?
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Nov 17, 2014 18:08
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Blarghalt posted:So here's something that always stumped me. does that take into account the fact that information can only travel at the speed of light?
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Nov 17, 2014 18:09
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Miltank posted:Do you even know what a hospice is? NORMAL Hospice involves pain relief and treatment regardless of end-of-life status. Telling your patients that their suffering is 'bringing them closer to god' does not a hospice make. Failing to provide pain relief basically makes you less a hospice, more a bed and breakfast for the dying. Massages do not count as relief.
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Nov 17, 2014 18:13
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Blarghalt posted:So here's something that always stumped me. God doesn't give a poo poo about the sufferings of savages though, this was already established earlier in the thread. Kyrie eleison posted:A correction, and an apology for being confusing earlier: God does not directly command, say, the Babylonians to overrun Israel, rather, he withdraws his divine protection from Israel. The barbarians are always seen to be at the gates, ready to destroy everything. Only the holy war of the Israelites was truly holy, in a biblical sense. All the rest of it is just viewed as heathens killing one another for their false idols of wood and stone. War between barbarians does not appear to have any religious significance. Also keep in mind that all religious people including your Amazonians are stupid idiots worshiping dumb idols of wood except for my religion of course which is so obviously correct.
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Nov 17, 2014 18:13
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CommieGIR posted:NORMAL Hospice involves pain relief and treatment regardless of end-of-life status. hmmmm, nope. ripping on mother teresa still making you look like a dipshit.
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Nov 17, 2014 18:19
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Miltank posted:hmmmm, nope. ripping on mother teresa still making you look like a dipshit. Thats some excellent logic there  Being a saint does not excuse you from valid criticism, nor does carrying out what you interpret as acts of kindness make those acts free from criticism either.And to be fair: I have not read Hitchen's books on her, I read doctors reviews who volunteered there and were appalled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa#Quality_of_medical_care CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 18:22
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welcome to /r/atheism everybody
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Nov 17, 2014 18:27
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down with slavery posted:welcome to /r/atheism everybody Oh please.
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Nov 17, 2014 18:27
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down with slavery posted:welcome to /r/atheism everybody Mother Teresa was a typical catholic BITCH who ran underfunded hospices for the underclass of the world e: look at this quote from a doctor who says that her Calcutta hospice had unsanitary conditions!!! Miltank fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 18:34
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Miltank posted:Mother Teresa was a typical catholic BITCH who ran underfunded hospices for the underclass of the world. Yeah, because that's what I said. Nothing blown out of context there. Miltank posted:e: look at this quote from a doctor who says that her Calcutta hospice had unsanitary conditions!!! And nuns with no medical training treating patients who needed pain relief more than massages. But hey, keep going all out on the context issue. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 18:35
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down with slavery posted:welcome to /r/atheism everybody I mean that started in the OP. The unbelievable smuglording about how Catholics are the only true orthodox Christians, (oh and all civilizations that aren't christian are dirty savages) pretty much threw down the gauntlet to any challenger willing to enter the smug-off. Anyway it's obvious that the Third Baptist 1793 Reformation of West Clarksville Kentucky Church of The Pentacostal Right are the only ones who really saw through Satan's tricks to become the only genuine Christians. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 18:35
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VitalSigns posted:I mean that started in the OP. The unbelievable smuglording about how Catholics are the only true orthodox Christians, (oh and all civilizations that aren't christian are dirty savages) pretty much threw down the gauntlet to any challenger willing to enter the smug-off. Seriously, I don't know what they are expecting in this thread. Obviously everyone is beyond reproach. Silly me
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Nov 17, 2014 18:39
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Whenever my friend says he is going to "church" he means he's actually going to a rave to get high on drugs and dance around. OP, could Jesus drop a bassline so sick that not even he himself could rinse out to it? Makes you think. people rinsing out to Jesus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUDTq7cAqR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1uZj7OujvU Edgar Quintero fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 18:41
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