VikingSkull posted:

I'm not entirely sure Fords designers have thought this through and it's entirely possibly they did this with no testing whatsoever. What idiots.

Powershift posted:

No. not at all. The Z28 has $5000 carbon ceramic brakes and an engine that's $17,000 in crate form.

The aluminum pannels over carbon fiber and steel brakes over carbon ceramic suggest they've kept the cost in check.

D C posted:

$100,000 for the first few months then down to like 55-60k im guessing.

fknlo posted:

Yeah, except the whole flat plane v8 found in nothing else probably isn't much cheaper than an LS7. Points outside of that taken though.

fknlo posted:

Yeah, except the whole flat plane v8 found in nothing else probably isn't much cheaper than an LS7. Points outside of that taken though.

Throatwarbler posted:

8200rpm redline.

Powershift posted:

The ford GT is supposed to be coming back for the 50th anniversary of the original wins, which could help recoup the engineering cost.

Throatwarbler posted:

Fun Fact: Passat W8s were flat plane(with balance shafts like an I4), and nothing ever goes wrong with tho

KozmoNaut posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_krCKECpzrU

Mat_Drinks posted:

I've never wanted a raise so badly.

It's like when I look two year old M3s and try to lie to myself about maintenance costs and how I could totally afford it if I wasn't putting as much away in the kiddo's college fund

Kenshin posted:

Dumb question then: if it's flat-plane why is it called a V8 and not an I8 or flat-8 or something?

Kenshin posted:

Dumb question then: if it's flat-plane why is it called a V8 and not an I8 or flat-8 or something?

Fucknag posted:

The crank is flat, but the cylinders themselves are still arranged in a V configuration. Here's a good image from Jalopnik:


The block/heads/etc aren't any different; they make drop-in flat-plane cranks for engines like the Chevy small block.

Augmented Dickey posted:

Possibly a retarded question, but does the crankshaft need to rotate twice as fast with the flat plane setup?

Guinness posted:

Either we won't get it in the states, or it will cost 50k and no one will buy it because that's <insert luxury brand> money.

Twerk from Home posted:

Well, if Cadillac had such a hard time selling a 556hp wagon with a stick available at $65k, I don't see VW moving many 300hp wagons for $50k without a stick.

Spatule posted:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/volkswagen-golf-r-sportwagen-los-angeles-motor-show-2014-11-18

SEXY.

OFFICER 13 INCH posted:

Thought you guys were talking about the new Lada concept my friend showed me at work the other day.

Powershift posted:

You mean the 2016 lada 1200?

Fucknag posted:

Crossplane vs Flatplane V8s: What the gently caress is actually going on?

Let's do a quick rundown of firing order, and what it means for engine operation, specifically exhaust scavenging.

This is a cylinder number diagram (Chevy/most manufacturers in the cylinders, Ford [obviously] in parentheses):



Odd numbers on the left bank (as viewed from the driver's seat, cylinder 1 is at the front of the engine), evens on the right.

The classic Chevy small block uses the firing order:

1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2

and the LS1 and newer engines use:

1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3.

You see in both firing orders that on each cycle, there's a point where 2 cylinders in a row fire on the same bank; 8-4 and 5-7 on the classic, 2-6 and 3-1 on the newer. On a typical exhaust manifold of any length, the pulses of exhaust gas from these two adjacent firings, since they're spaced closer together, reduce engine performance; specifically, the first of the pair arrives at the collector immediately before the second, meaning there's high pressure at the collector when the second arrives. Basically instead of seeing an even cycle of high-low-high-low, etc, like a 4-cylinder manifold would, it sees (for each cylinder in the firing order) a pressure pattern like this (this is based on the classic firing order, the newer is similar, just phased differently):

-__-_--_

This reduces the velocity of the exhaust stream, meaning the engine has to work harder to pump it through, which reduces power output. Longer headers can mitigate this somewhat on their own, but it's still there. Wider header tubes can mitigate the effect, but that reduces an effect called scavenging, where the inertia of each exhaust pulse kind of helps "pull" the next one through, negating the pressure spikes and helping the engine breathe better. Narrower tubes increase the velocity of the gas to increase this effect, so having the pipes too big, while improving individual flow, can reduce overall engine performance (this also applies to the exhaust as a whole, which is why having too big an exhaust is not just annoying, it can also hurt engine performance even compared to stock).

You can also see that, after entering the main exhaust tube, the two adjacent high and low pressure zones kind of merge together to create one big pulse; this is what creates the deep, low-pitch rumble of classic American V8s that you don't get from a Ferrari. A similar effect is what causes the "Boxer rumble" that Subarus are known for; they use unequal-length manifolds, so at various engine speeds the 4 exhaust pulses merge into 2 big ones, which is the entire cause of the distinctive Subaru exhaust sound; replace the stock manifolds with aftermarket, equal-length headers, and it sounds like any other 4-cylinders. They use them from the factory because they're cheaper to make than performance headers, but it's fairly easy to make equal-length ones.



On a V8, it's not so simple. As I mentioned, even if the runners on all 8 cylinders are the same length, those adjacent exhaust pulses still crop up, no matter if it's a short- or long-tube header. The "perfect" solution is the crossover header, the "bundle of snakes" that IOC posted. It crosses either the outer or inner cylinder pairs (depending mostly on packaging) from one side to the other, to even out the exhaust pulses and improve flow, which improves scavenging on its own, and lets you run smaller runners which does the same. The engine has to do a lot less work to push its own exhaust out the tailpipe, which means that much more horsepower left to drive the wheels. The disadvantage is, as is obvious from that picture, packaging; obviously to tie both sides together like that, either the collectors have to be close together like in the picture, or if they're spaced wider out the runners from the same side will have to be looped to get to the same runner length as the inner ones that had to cross over (or under) the engine (because if you're going to the effort of doing headers like that, you'd be insane not to make them equal length).



All this is an inevitable consequence of the geometry of the crankshaft; the orientation of the crank journals, and the consequent timing of the piston arriving at the top of the cylinder, means that any workable firing order will have those 2 pairs of same-bank cylinder firings. There's no getting around it.

A flat-plane crank doesn't have these issues; it's the same geometry as a 4-cylinder crank, just with 2 pistons on each journal instead of 1. Ferrari uses the Ford-style numbering; its firing order is:

1-5-3-7-4-8-2-6

Each opposed pair fires together, 90 degrees apart, in the same 1-3-4-2 as a 4-banger. Avoids all the weird timing issues caused by the crossplane crank, and you can run a simple equal-length header manifold on each bank (tuned to whatever RPM you want) and join them later. Piss easy.

So why do we bother with this crossplane nonsense at all? The answer's already been posted in the thread (vibrations), but there's a bit more to it; I'll do another effortpost later on why the various vibrations happen and what the consequences are.

Powershift posted:

You mean the 2016 lada 1200?

El Scotch posted:

If it would actually be allowed on Canadian roads (and I had more than one parking spot) I'd be seriously tempted to get a Lada for shits and giggles.

El Scotch posted:

All you have to do to fix a broken Lada is hit it in the right spot with a mallet.

Guinness posted:

Either we won't get it in the states, or it will cost 50k and no one will buy it because that's <insert luxury brand> money.

Powershift posted:

You mean the 2016 lada 1200?

OFFICER 13 INCH posted:

Nah there was some obviously not production ready hypercar thing that looked like they thought that if Mclaren can drop right back in with a catfish on wheels then clearly as long as they made it provide even more catfish per dollar the buyers would come.

KillHour posted:

KillHour posted:

Which one? There were two.

KillHour posted:

The only reason I'm going to say yes is that's the only way I can imagine the wing mirrors working.