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It's the densest Morrison book I've read since Superman Beyond, no question.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:01
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Here are my scattered thoughts so far: - The comic is about the (im)possibility of regaining innocence, once lost. Can comics go back to before Watchmen, and the subsequent trends of grim and gritty styles, moral ambiguity, anti-heroes, pessimism, and so on? Can America go back to the way it was pre-9/11, or back to its mythic golden age "when it all made sense"? Can Nix Uotan be turned back from the evil Judge of Worlds to the good Super-Judge? In this comic undoing Watchmen is as simple as having it's analogue story presented backwards, but even then it leads us to the same place: A young boy loses his innocence, the man on the radio is pining for how America used to be. And when we see the early days of Question and Beetle's dynamic duo the end of their friendship is already looming. - Characters talk about the miracle that's supposed to be performed by Adam Allen: President Harley coming back to life from the dead. Does he, though? Read the second page again. - There's the recurring infinity (/figure eight) symbol, but there's also a recurring symbol that could be traced as multiple figure-eights (or infinities) splitting off from one another. And in the end the infinity symbol with a bullet hole, combining the two. - I'm still having trouble with understanding how Sergeant Lane and his metal hand(s?) fit into the story or meta-references. I also don't see how Harley, as a boy, covered up killing his father ("An intruder killed his father, open and shut case apparently") - Again, I think the whole story ties into the larger Multiversity story because of how its themes relate to Uotan's own loss of innocence. Remember he also killed his own father in Final Crisis, though in a very different context. There's also the echo of the landlord knocking on Uotan's door again. Also, it keeps being teased that YOU (the reader) is the main villain of the story. Perhaps thats because, as this issue makes clear, we control the diegetic passage of time. We cause each terrible event by turning each page. Or because we've helped corrupt superhero comics by supporting the grim and pessimistic over the innocently heroic and optimistic? Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 21:51
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drat, Quitely. drat. That staircase page... the park bridge page... the assassination-in-reverse... drat.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:05
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I don't know if they were going to bring the president back to life; I read it more as using the president's death to unite and galvanize the country. Like a more narrowly focused version of Ozymandias' plan, and not one designed to benefit the whole world.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:17
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Lord Krangdar posted:- There's the recurring infinity (/figure eight) symbol, but there's also a recurring symbol that could be traced as multiple figure-eights (or infinities) splitting off from one another. And in the end the infinity symbol with a bullet hole, combining the two. The panel with young Harley and his Dad's mask made it look like a strand of DNA too. Random thoughts: The president sacrificing himself in order to bring back Captain Atom works as a sort of inversion of Ozymandias' actions in Watchmen. Lots of nice bits of Watchmen reversals, I particularly liked the perfume going from Watchmen's "Nostalgia" to "Future Bomb". Interesting that they have Morrison and Quitely comics in their universe. Not sure myself about Lane's role. Has he already been corrupted by the Gentry? Is he their agent in this chapter? Atom in the park with the dog makes me think along similar lines to Nix in the first issue where he was "dissecting"the comic. Saying stuff along the lines of "I thought if I took it apart I could better understand the whole"... It seems like Morrison is criticising those who look for meaning instead of enjoying the story but for someone whose work is so dense it doesn't quite ring true. Kind of regret getting this digitally to be honest. Would have been easier to navigate the physical thing.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:31
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Evil Mastermind posted:I don't know if they were going to bring the president back to life; I read it more as using the president's death to unite and galvanize the country. Like a more narrowly focused version of Ozymandias' plan, and not one designed to benefit the whole world. Well Harley specifically mentiones being brought back to life in the garden chat with Adam. But from the story we see he only is because of the reversed way the panels and pages are ordered.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:33
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... I don't understand this issue. 
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Nov 19, 2014 22:34
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Shameless posted:Atom in the park with the dog makes me think along similar lines to Nix in the first issue where he was "dissecting"the comic. Saying stuff along the lines of "I thought if I took it apart I could better understand the whole"... It seems like Morrison is criticising those who look for meaning instead of enjoying the story but for someone whose work is so dense it doesn't quite ring true. I think he wishes we could all enjoy comics innocently, without the post-modern tricks designed for meta-analysis, or the pesky realism and pessimism and grim-dark grit. But this issue tries to reverse all that and ends leading right back to the same point. Even if the last section had been panel-for-panel backwards, so that the boy seemed to un-shoot his father, we the readers would still interpret the story the same forwards way. Which is maybe why the foreshadowing keeps implying that we are the true villains of the whole saga. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 22:37
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Evil Mastermind posted:... Grant Morrison says gently caress you to Millar, Moore and the comics culture in general.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:40
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How long does it usually take for Uzumeri to put up his annotations?
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Nov 19, 2014 22:43
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Waterhaul posted:Grant Morrison says gently caress you to Millar, Moore and the comics culture in general. Well, the Moore hate is always assumed. What parts were targeted at Millar? I'm not really super-familiar with his work.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:47
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It's not so much a "gently caress you" as just saying he can't undo what has been done to superhero comics, by them or us.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:48
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Evil Mastermind posted:Well, the Moore hate is always assumed. What parts were targeted at Millar? I'm not really super-familiar with his work. Post 9/11 govenment-funded superheroes are Millar's bread and butter; Beetle/Question banter, especially the sickburn comeback, is painfully Millar as well.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:51
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Evil Mastermind posted:... Read it backwards after reading it forwards. e: Ah, and I just realised the figure 8 is a mobius strip. vegetables fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 22:51
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Senor Candle posted:How long does it usually take for Uzumeri to put up his annotations? He's too busy playing Dragon Age.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:54
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vegetables posted:Read it backwards after reading it forwards. I'm trying. It's not easy in digital format, plus as near as I can tell the sections, not the pages need to be read in reverse. I did just notice that when Atom's in the chamber on page 14, he's floating in front of the panel gutters, though.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:09
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Lord Krangdar posted:I think he wishes we could all enjoy comics innocently, without the post-modern tricks designed for meta-analysis, or the pesky realism and pessimism and grim-dark grit. But this issue tries to reverse all that and ends leading right back to the same point. Yeah, for some reason I was reading it as the reader taking things apart but, having just read that section again, it seems much more likely to be Moore he's talking about. Having done the superhero dissection so thoroughly on Watchmen and started the whole trend.... You can't put the genie back in the bottle. By trying to understand the individual bits, to make superheroes real, the intangible wonder has gone. Is it also a criticism of Moore's absence from superhero comics and saying that if he only came back he could fix it again? Reminded of "Come back to us Allen" from Superman Beyond where he was very clearly a stand-in for Moore. I don't think it's a "gently caress you" to Moore, Morrison has been quite complimentary about his work last time he spoke about him. Edit: the "my daughter loved that dog as much as you" line is pretty much saying, look what you've taken away from children by making your superheroes all realistic. Shameless fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 23:09
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I was just thinking I want to get the .cbr file for this issue so I can pull it apart and put it together in "chronological order". Then I realized that I'd not only be taking the dog apart to see if the pieces explained the whole, I was also going to be dissecting a comic book. Goddammit.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:19
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Lord Krangdar posted:Even if the last section had been panel-for-panel backwards, so that the boy seemed to un-shoot his father, we the readers would still interpret the story the same forwards way. Which is maybe why the foreshadowing keeps implying that we are the true villains of the whole saga. So maybe the sideways 8 isn't an infinity symbol but a Möbius strip?
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Nov 19, 2014 23:21
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Shameless posted:So maybe the sideways 8 isn't an infinity symbol but a Möbius strip? I'm willing to bet that's exactly the case. Lord Krangdar posted:Even if the last section had been panel-for-panel backwards, so that the boy seemed to un-shoot his father, we the readers would still interpret the story the same forwards way. Which is maybe why the foreshadowing keeps implying that we are the true villains of the whole saga. The page of Ultra Comics that reveals the villain is just going to be a mirror.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:24
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Evil Mastermind posted:I'm trying. It's not easy in digital format, plus as near as I can tell the sections, not the pages need to be read in reverse.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:29
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Shameless posted:Is it also a criticism of Moore's absence from superhero comics and saying that if he only came back he could fix it again? Reminded of "Come back to us Allen" from Superman Beyond where he was very clearly a stand-in for Moore. Moore can't put the genie back in the bottle either. Just like Dark Knight Strikes Again turned in on its predecessor's legacy, but didn't undo it. I think the next issue with Captain Marvel might be Morrison seeing if an innocent, unambiguous hero story can still be told and fit in with the rest. Evil Mastermind posted:The page of Ultra Comics that reveals the villain is just going to be a mirror. That would be cool, but what would they do for the digital edition? I'm guessing the whole comic will be first person instead. Or both together. Shameless posted:So maybe the sideways 8 isn't an infinity symbol but a Möbius strip? Isn't the symbol for infinity always a Mobius strip? Like that's why that symbol is used for infinity in the first place, I thought. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 23:30
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Is there any significance to the times on the clock-tower when Harley is sitting on the bench? Besides a general reference to Watchmen's clock motif.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:35
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Lord Krangdar posted:Isn't the symbol for infinity always a Mobius strip? Like that's why that symbol is used for infinity in the first place, I thought. I guess so but, maybe it's just me, I see them as very different things. Infinity being... well, infinity as in something going on forever and a Möbius strip being a repeating cycle without beginning or end. Something that isn't actually infinite but repeating. I am often very thick though. Edit. Ooh, one thing I do know for sure is that the hunchback and the soldier are a question mark and an exclamation mark. A question and an answer. It's a Crowley thing. Shameless fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 23:39
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Okay, so young Harley accidentally shoots his superhero father (Yellowjacket) in the head, thus prefiguring his own assassination by his superhero "son". Yellowjacket is the Major Comics artist who drew Janus the Everyway Man. So why the hell is the dialogue on panel 1 of page 19 ("The solution's right here"...) coming from Captain Atom? That's a printing error, right?
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Nov 19, 2014 23:40
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Lord Krangdar posted:Is there any significance to the times on the clock-tower when Harley is sitting on the bench? Besides a general reference to Watchmen's clock motif. They form a peace sign.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:42
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Pay attention to the layout in this issue Watchmen famously adheres to the strict nine-panel grid, Pax Americana mostly uses the eight, sixteen and 32-panel pages, playing into the magical thematic number. The even number of panels obviously helps building the symmetry, as the issue is an attempt to one-up the Fearful Symmetry issue of Watchmen. The implied 16-panel grid, with most of the panels and even the whole rows merged, is a template of Dark Knight Returns. But where Miller prefers horizontal and panoramic merges to make space for lavish art, Morrison and Quitely mostly merge vertically to echo the uncommon 4X2 grid set in the first pages, sacrificing the spectacle and emphasizing characters and details in clamped spaces. drat, I wish they would make a special edition of this issue, the backmatter must be amazing. fatherboxx fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 23:49
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fatherboxx posted:drat, I wish they would make a special edition of this issue, the backmatter must be amazing. I'm surprised they aren't doing that for every issue.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:50
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I think I understand the whole plot now, except who the Sergeant with the metal gloves is who kills Nora and the scientists. Is the answer to that actually in the comic?
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Nov 19, 2014 23:53
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vegetables posted:I think I understand the whole plot now, except who the Sergeant with the metal gloves is who kills Nora and the scientists. Is the answer to that actually in the comic? I think it's the guy Question lectures about colors? He's a hitman working for Eden. Would fit.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:56
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ElNarez posted:I think it's the guy Question lectures about colors? He's a hitman working for Eden. Would fit. I'm not sure; he mentions a "Sarge" as he dies who his orders come from, and the scientists refer to the man who kills them as "Sergeant". And that Sergeant's jaw looks nothing like the hitman's jaw.
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Nov 20, 2014 00:02
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It's Sarge Steel http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarge_Steel
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Nov 20, 2014 00:20
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Shameless posted:It's Sarge Steel Good heavens; that's obscure. I'm glad I asked the thread. So the plot as I understand it is that, to prevent the cyclical nature of history from ending the Pax Americana and causing another war, the President engineers things so that the passage of time itself becomes cyclical, looping back and forth forever between the events at the end of the comic and the events at the start. Is that right? I have a feeling it's completely wrong. vegetables fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 00:29
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I still don't understand what Harley's plan actually was, leaving aside all the reading-order fuckery and meta commentary stuff. He accidentally kills his own father, the first vigilante superhero. Then years later he is shown the secret algorithm underlying everything by a time-travelling Atom, and becomes able to predict trends and future events. He uses that knowledge to rise through the political ranks, and eventually becomes a popular president. Concerned about a new dark ages he foresees in the future, he meets again with Captain Atom. But this is where I get lost. He says "to secure world peace [he] has to be sacrificed". He implies that Atom's role will then be to bring him back to life. But elsewhere its implied that he wants to actually die ("I deserve it, let the punishment fit the crime"), seemingly as punishment for his father's death. He creates a government sponsored super-team called Pax Americana (directly against the speech at the end against genuine peace in contrast to "a Pax Americana enforced on the world through American weapons of war"). But he also puts into motion a plan seemingly designed to discredit them, and to end the whole notion of the American government sponsoring superheroes. So in the end, speaking linearly, he is assasinated by Peacemaker like he planned. But we don't see him come back to life (except in reverse). Its not clear if Atom really did survive the attempt to kill him. And Peacemaker does not get away with Nora, who is also murdered, though that seems to have been part of the plan at one point. Did he foresee the advent of state sponsored super-agents eventually leading to the dark future end of humanity, and blame himself for putting that into motion when he killed his father? Since killing his father meant both the end of the first genuine superhero and the end of his super-hero comics which could have inspired more to follow in his foot-steps. If so, then it makes sense that he sacrificed himself to try and reverse what he had done, by popularizing unheroic superheroes and then turning everyone against them. He sees how all trends work, with rising popularity followed by an even swifter and stronger back-lash. Where would the coming back to life part fit into that, though? Maybe the meta elements can't be separated out fully. When they're interrogating Peacemaker and he's asked who he was trying to save the world from, does he then point at us (the readers)? Was Harley's profound discovery that he lived in a story structure, making his goal to make a story structured backwards so that it could no longer lead to the terrible fate he foresaw? And so since Atom can flip the pages the world like a comic-book, he is responsible for the reading order that the story presents to us. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 01:31
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I need the annotation page up, like, yesterday.
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Nov 20, 2014 01:36
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I thought Harley meant that he would live again but this time as a legend. I kind of saw the death as the same thing as the Manhattan scene in Watchmen. I figured he created the superteam to be the scapegoats that would unite people in the end.
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Nov 20, 2014 01:38
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Lord Krangdar posted:So in the end, speaking linearly, he is assasinated by Peacemaker like he planned. But we don't see him come back to life (except in reverse). I'd say Atom's realisation is that he doesn't need to bring him back to life (and as shown with the dog may not be able to). Like us he can interact with the world from a higher perspective and to bring him back to life all you have to do is change to the page he's on. Morrison has always had a bit of a fascination with the consideration of the comic as a universe that we're looking at from a higher dimensional plane and where we can view different points in time with the flick of the wrist. And by always I mean since the time he went to some temple on a mountain in Asia after taking some hashish and had an experience with angels/aliens who told him the secret of reality, gifting him with 4D vision.
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Nov 20, 2014 01:39
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Evil Mastermind posted:I was just thinking I want to get the .cbr file for this issue so I can pull it apart and put it together in "chronological order". Someone did this on /co/.
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Nov 20, 2014 01:46
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team overhead smash posted:I'd say Atom's realisation is that he doesn't need to bring him back to life (and as shown with the dog may not be able to). Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at earlier. But the part I don't understand is whether that was part of how Harley intended the plan to go, or not. Madkal posted:I thought Harley meant that he would live again but this time as a legend. I kind of saw the death as the same thing as the Manhattan scene in Watchmen. I figured he created the superteam to be the scapegoats that would unite people in the end. So he wanted his assasination to unite the world against the jingoistic, self-aggrandizing type of heroes that he popularized? Like, he created them only to have America turn against them, thereby teaching the world a lesson before it was too late? Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 01:47
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Lord Krangdar posted:I'm still having trouble with understanding how Sergeant Lane and his metal hand(s?) fit into the story or meta-references. As stated, that was a Sarge Steel riff; Sarge Steel was a Charlton character too. First comic book 'private eye' to be a Vietnam veteran, interestingly enough.
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Nov 20, 2014 01:47
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