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peak debt posted:It is an internationally "accepted" practice though. No, it is the USA refusing to conform to international law. It gets away with it because no-one can prosecute it, not because no law has been broken. This is not to say it is right, it is standard practice or that it allows others to do the same. Tu quoque is not an effective arguement.
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Nov 20, 2014 13:56
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I don't understand why everyone is assuming that the attackers did this out of some Machiavellian scheme rather than the same process which drives random outbursts of violence like workplace shootings. Most of the discussion revolves around this as a tactic, rather than as a spontaneous horror. Why are we accepting the Israeli framing so uncritically?
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Nov 20, 2014 14:09
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Kim Jong Il posted:It's not relevant that Hamas is regularly firing rockets, intentionally maximizes Palestinian civilian deaths, and has a long history of suicide bombings? Relevant to what? Does it justify the continued military occupation of the West Bank, the blockade of Gaza and in general the collective punishment of the Palestinian citizenry? Otherwise no, it ain't relevant. Hamas's unfortunate choice of a cynical military strategy is hardly relevant as Israeli collective punishment policies have been in place long before Hamas existed as a militant organization. Ex post facto justifications or whatever. quote:Sure. The Palestinian Authority has already agreed in negotiations with Barak and Olmert that 1967 borders will have to be adjusted at multiple points. They weren't able to resolve conflicts over Jerusalem and refugees however. That a collaborationist government agreed to territorial exchanges pending good faith negotiations is indeed great, however, this hardly makes it permissible for Israel to unilaterally annex certain territories which it desires and on top of that, no compensation was ever provided. To paraphrase Fink again "It's like debating how to divide a Pizza between two parties while one of them is gobbling down slices". quote:Do keep in mind that BDS, which Finkelstein speaks for in that video, isn't about settlements and the West Bank. BDS is for boycotting the entire state of Israel, a one state solution, and the immediate return of all descendants of 1948 refugees. Which video? Finkelstein brings this up in several different lectures, including his debate with Ben-Ami where BDS isn't discussed. Finkelstein is actually not a part of the BDS movement on account of what he views as their hypocrisy concerning Israel's rights as an internationally recognized state. As for his position in regards to the rights of return, he is simply citing UNSEC resolution 49, this actually has nothing to do with one state or two state or whatever, Ethnic Cleansing is not permissible according to international law and the rights of the refugees are individual and non-negotiable. Even if some Palestinian leader agreed to waive the RoR it will not be legally binding as every refugee is entitled to his basic rights. quote:No, I think it's due to making blanket collective justifications like this. If you get to say that Likud speaks for all of Israel, then it's a lot easier to argue that Hamas speaks for all of Palestinians. I hardly know what this refers to, I am not a republican absolutist that believes that every individual is enthralled to the will of their government, I do believe though that there is a stronger correlation between 'The will of the populos' to 'the will of the government' in countries with due democratic processes. What I meant to say in that paragraph is that TIC and MIGF make these threads terrible, there are also terrible posters in the other camp but they generally don't spend hours upon hours trying to intentionally derail the thread and are thus not worthy of calling out at the moment.
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Nov 20, 2014 14:22
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Pauline Kael posted:To be fair, 'correct thought' is enforced pretty hard around here. It's not really debate so much as a circular back pat. Yup.
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Nov 20, 2014 14:30
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Effectronica posted:I don't understand why everyone is assuming that the attackers did this out of some Machiavellian scheme rather than the same process which drives random outbursts of violence like workplace shootings. Most of the discussion revolves around this as a tactic, rather than as a spontaneous horror. Why are we accepting the Israeli framing so uncritically? To be fair I find this unlikely but it is a possibility and why in one of my earlier posts I said they would be either criminals or war criminals depending on the nature of their attack. Also the framing would in no way justify Israel collectively punishing Palestinians in return, which is probably the most significant thing at the moment.
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Nov 20, 2014 14:37
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Baloogan posted:Yup. Did ever even bring up a talking point in any of these threads that wasn't just a grumpy dismissal of everyone else's opinions on account of bullshit hivemind and antisemitism accusations? And btw, Pauline, weren't you banned from these threads for calling all europeans animals or whatever? It's weird that this hivemind bullshit always comes from guys whose modus operandi is making poo poo and run inflammatory posts. If you disagree with 'the hivemind' make reasoned arguments and try to convince people, otherwise if you insist upon thinking that we all lust for the blood of the jew just report this thread to the ADL and spare yourself the bother of reading our Goebbels-esque propaganda.
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Nov 20, 2014 14:42
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Effectronica posted:I don't understand why everyone is assuming that the attackers did this out of some Machiavellian scheme rather than the same process which drives random outbursts of violence like workplace shootings. Most of the discussion revolves around this as a tactic, rather than as a spontaneous horror. Why are we accepting the Israeli framing so uncritically? Seconding this. Why is every act of violence by Palestinians in accord with a sinister master plan to slowly make Israel judenfrei, but when the IDF repeatedly shells kids playing football on the beach, bombs UN shelters with children and western aid workers still inside, and all the other horrid poo poo they do, all that's said is "regrettable, but necessary"? That is, if they even say "regrettable" and not just "good riddance haji scum". Why is this line accepted so uncritically? People do stupid poo poo when they're enraged/depressed/without hope, and guess what many Palestinians are. There's no "they live" style master plan.
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Nov 20, 2014 14:47
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murphyslaw posted:Seconding this. Why is every act of violence by Palestinians in accord with a sinister master plan to slowly make Israel judenfrei, but when the IDF repeatedly shells kids playing football on the beach, bombs UN shelters with children and western aid workers still inside, and all the other horrid poo poo they do, all that's said is "regrettable, but necessary"? That is, if they even say "regrettable" and not just "good riddance haji scum". For the same reason hate crimes are usually motivated by racist ideologies etc, for the same reason we consider the Abu Khdeir murder to be a hate crime with nationalist motivations. No one is saying that there is an orchestrated plan or any of that stuff, People in Palestine are fed up and angry and some of them choose to commit violent crimes against those whom they consider to be their oppressors. I don't really get what point you guys are trying to make, do you think that the recent wave of attacks is not politically motivated? These are not people who woke up one day and randomly decided to go postal at their co-workers, there is an obvious ideological motivation here.
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Nov 20, 2014 14:56
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Did ever even bring up a talking point in any of these threads that wasn't just a grumpy dismissal of everyone else's opinions on account of bullshit hivemind and antisemitism accusations? My response was less about your lust for jew blood and more about D&D being a place with a narrow range of acceptable opinion. Sorry for interrupting your fair and balanced review of I/P.
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Nov 20, 2014 14:58
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Maybe try and make arguments against that opinion rather than whining if you don't like it.
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Nov 20, 2014 15:01
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Pauline Kael posted:My response was less about your lust for jew blood and more about D&D being a place with a narrow range of acceptable opinion. Sorry for interrupting your fair and balanced review of I/P. Yes, we really need a wider variety of opinions on whether or not apartheid is acceptable. Other things we need more diversity of opinions on: women's suffrage, the civil rights movement, whether the Holocaust is real or fake.
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Nov 20, 2014 15:10
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Demanding that Palestinians continually submit to Israeli demands and not ever aggress against Israel, when it is the Palestinian's land, family and dignity that is continually taken from them, is asking them to act like sheep. No one making that demand of them would ever themselves simply accept the same oppression. They would, of course, lash out.
rudatron fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 15:22
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I don't really get what point you guys are trying to make, do you think that the recent wave of attacks is not politically motivated? These are not people who woke up one day and randomly decided to go postal at their co-workers, there is an obvious ideological motivation here. You are right of course. Not expressing myself well here. I meant, Palestinian violence is not categorically motivated by a master plan, like it sometimes appears that people believe. Of course, ideology, racism, hatred, and religious bigotry are motivators as well. Just like when the IDF do their thing, but they are also motivated, as an army, by more or less legitimate military concerns. I suppose I am just peeved at the flippancy displayed towards the quite frankly staggering suffering the Palestinians have had to endure for decades. Of course the Israelis have endured their fair share, then as now, but there's no "israeliwood" equivalent that gets touted whenever smoldering israeli corpses are on TV vs. the outcry of fakery that comes whenever footage leaks out of the strip, for instance. Except for by neo-nazis, I suppose.
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Nov 20, 2014 15:24
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emanresu tnuocca posted:For the same reason hate crimes are usually motivated by racist ideologies etc, for the same reason we consider the Abu Khdeir murder to be a hate crime with nationalist motivations. Workplace shootings almost always have a motivation too. Most 'random' violence is done for a reason. However, that doesn't mean that the attackers sat down and deliberated over how they could best support the liberation of Palestine before deciding on attacking a synagogue. That is where most of the discussion seems to be coming from, and it's eerily similar to the justifications Israel is making for collective punishment.
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Nov 20, 2014 15:37
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Yeah maybe these are the same disaffected youth who in another country would commit random violence against a perceived enemy, like women or their teachers or boss or what have you. It's just that as Palestinians they have a really clear, obvious enemy who is trying to wipe them out at all times, so if they get unbalanced and develop a personal persecution narrative we can make a good guess what it's going to form around. Israeli politics is designed to make young Palestinian men snap.
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Nov 20, 2014 15:40
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And lest we forget while everytime a Palestinian does something bad, collective punishment is doled out in a quick response. Settlers attack a Palestinian? You'll be lucky if the cops even show up.
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Nov 20, 2014 15:58
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Pauline Kael posted:My response was less about your lust for jew blood and more about D&D being a place with a narrow range of acceptable opinion. Sorry for interrupting your fair and balanced review of I/P. Narrow opinion is better then poo poo-and-run posting, which is all that your side is able to contribute. Put up or shut up.
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Nov 20, 2014 16:12
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The Apartheid is justified in order to prevent the desperation fueled violent outbursts and orchestrated attacks it causes.
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Nov 20, 2014 16:24
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DarkCrawler posted:Narrow opinion is better then poo poo-and-run posting, which is all that your side is able to contribute. Put up or shut up. As usual, "enforcement of correct thought" is "saying things and arguing." American right wing Israel apologists get confused because people on the internet don't just nod their heads agreeably like their terrified employees.
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Nov 20, 2014 16:26
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ReV VAdAUL posted:The Apartheid is justified in order to prevent the desperation fueled violent outbursts and orchestrated attacks it causes. Yes, that's an example of a wrong opinion. However the opinion that the murders of civilians are justified by apartheid is also wrong.
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Nov 20, 2014 16:41
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You are right, nothing justifies the apartheid.
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Nov 20, 2014 16:44
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team overhead smash posted:Yes, that's an example of a wrong opinion. Of course they are not justified, but the idea that their root cause is certainly tied back to those policies is valid.
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Nov 20, 2014 16:44
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team overhead smash posted:Yes, that's an example of a wrong opinion. These murders are wrong. Therefore, extending policies which encourage the motivation and the opportunity for them, say expanding settlements by displacing Palestinians and invading Muslim places of worship, is also wrong. Guess what Israeli response has been recently, though? By the way, anybody hear about the city of Ashkelon, inside the Green Line, now barring Israeli Arabs from building bomb shelters at kindergartens, supposedly as a response to the attack in Jerusalem?
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Nov 20, 2014 16:50
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CommieGIR posted:Of course they are not justified, but the idea that their root cause is certainly tied back to those policies is valid. Yes, I accept that. The problem was posters on the last page refusing to accept that point and trying to rationalise these murders.
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Nov 20, 2014 16:56
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team overhead smash posted:Yes, I accept that. The problem was posters on the last page refusing to accept that point and trying to rationalise these murders. Ah, fair enough. Absurd Alhazred posted:By the way, anybody hear about the city of Ashkelon, inside the Green Line, now barring Israeli Arabs from building bomb shelters at kindergartens, supposedly as a response to the attack in Jerusalem? Probably more because the IDF views 'shelters' as 'possible rocket launch sites'
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Nov 20, 2014 16:56
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SedanChair posted:As usual, "enforcement of correct thought" is "saying things and arguing." American right wing Israel apologists get confused because people on the internet don't just nod their heads agreeably like their terrified employees. The thing is, no matter how much pro-Israelis post about echo chambers, only one side is making effortposts with citations and historical context and replying in detail when their opinions are challenged. If this was an unfounded echo chamber, why would anyone bother? MIGF is literally the only honest poster among them because at least he loving acknowledges a reply when it's directed to him, and that's loving sad. Pro-Israelis are just cowards who can't stick with their principles when they are called upon it. There's more then enough shitposters to make it a rough 50/50 debate if they weren't too much of a bitch to stand by their support of apartheid and colonialism.
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Nov 20, 2014 18:22
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CommieGIR posted:Probably more because the IDF views 'shelters' as 'possible rocket launch sites' I wouldn't even give the thought process that much credit. The collective punishment policies are so far past making any sort of sense on an ethical level. You have Naftali Bennett on facebook outright proudly admitting that his main goal is to restrict the rights of Palestinians. Also, I agree with TOS that attacking civilians should never be considered legitimate. Even if we can understand why people would do it, it's not an excuse.
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Nov 20, 2014 18:30
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I doubt that the IDF is overly concerned about the possibility that bomb shelters within Israeli kindergartens in Ashqelon will be used as possible rocket launch sites. They fear that Arab constructions workers working at kindergartens wouldn't be able to help themselves and start butchering Jewish toddlers. No apartheid here, move along please.
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Nov 20, 2014 19:00
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DarkCrawler posted:The thing is, no matter how much pro-Israelis post about echo chambers, only one side is making effortposts with citations and historical context and replying in detail when their opinions are challenged. If this was an unfounded echo chamber, why would anyone bother? MIGF is literally the only honest poster among them because at least he loving acknowledges a reply when it's directed to him, and that's loving sad. Pro-Israelis are just cowards who can't stick with their principles when they are called upon it. There's more then enough shitposters to make it a rough 50/50 debate if they weren't too much of a bitch to stand by their support of apartheid and colonialism. There is no common ground, no point in having a discussion with yourself and others like yourself. Which, in its own way, is very scary. Your government most likely supports Israel. Deal with that before getting your torches lit for a witchhunt. Write your congressman/political representation and watch it be ignored like your other lovely opinions.
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Nov 20, 2014 19:24
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You like talking to people whom you don't disagree with? What are you some kind of freak? Personally I prefer all my conversations, electronic or otherwise, to be argumentative and inflammatory.
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Nov 20, 2014 19:28
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DarkCrawler posted:The thing is, no matter how much pro-Israelis post about echo chambers, only one side is making effortposts with citations and historical context and replying in detail when their opinions are challenged. If this was an unfounded echo chamber, why would anyone bother? MIGF is literally the only honest poster among them because at least he loving acknowledges a reply when it's directed to him, and that's loving sad. Pro-Israelis are just cowards who can't stick with their principles when they are called upon it. There's more then enough shitposters to make it a rough 50/50 debate if they weren't too much of a bitch to stand by their support of apartheid and colonialism. If by 'apartheid and colonialism' you mean 'development of state institutions,' then yes, I stand by Israeli policy. Not only is it easier to do so in America, its very popular, and extremely profitable to do so. Yeah, I won't respond to the shittiest posters, because there is nothing to respond to that will influence them or allow others to gain a finer understanding of the political realities. Its great and all that so many folks make a moral argument against Israel. Morals don't belong in politics, especially not on a state policy level, and until you can make an economic argument against Israel you won't get anywhere or sway anyone. All you'll get is lip service with no substantive change. E: Some context, I was at a UN conference on global education recently and the Palestinian observing representative reported that Gazan attainment of the educational goals was completely halted and not expected to resume until 2017 at the earliest. Pretty obvious this would happen w/r/t Hamas' rocket policy, and now non-Turkish member states are less willing to fund education in Gaza than they are new rockets. poo poo happens, you can anticipate it to occur and mitigate it from a policy standpoint. UN school programs refused to do so, and now they're SOL. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 19:32
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My Imaginary GF posted:Morals don't belong in politics lmao you sociopath
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Nov 20, 2014 19:50
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My Imaginary GF posted:Morals don't belong in politics You're just jealous that other people have them and you don't.
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Nov 20, 2014 19:53
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My Imaginary GF posted:Morals don't belong in politics I'll quote that the next time you say its so horrible that a Palestinian killed some innocent Israeli.
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Nov 20, 2014 20:00
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List of countries with a history of moral politics:
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Nov 20, 2014 20:02
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Baloogan posted:List of countries with a history of moral politics: All of them, because you cannot divorce politics and morality "Morals don't belong in politics" is codespeak for "I support some really hosed up poo poo and know it"
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Nov 20, 2014 20:03
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My Imaginary GF posted:If by 'apartheid and colonialism' you mean 'development of state institutions,' then yes, I stand by Israeli policy. Not only is it easier to do so in America, its very popular, and extremely profitable to do so. Yeah, I won't respond to the shittiest posters, because there is nothing to respond to that will influence them or allow others to gain a finer understanding of the political realities. loving dumbass teachers trying to live
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Nov 20, 2014 20:06
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Morals have nothing to do do with my policitics *calls for forced segregation*
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Nov 20, 2014 20:06
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So yeah, it's nice to observe that indeed politicians often don't care about morality and that government policy is often immoral, I'd say it's a little extreme to divorce morality from politics entirely but whatever, the question is whether this really invalidates critique that is itself borne of moral concerns. Basically, we're saying "that's some evil poo poo dude" and your response is "yup! politicians sure do some evil stuff sometimes, that's the system man", so yeah you see, we're not politicians ourselves and some of us might think that wrong things are wrong or whatever.
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Nov 20, 2014 20:14
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Baloogan posted:List of countries with a history of moral politics: My point. Morality is constantly in flux and is used as an ex post facto justification of policy implementation. Morality helps your policy after its implemented; it does little towards getting it implemented in the first place. emanresu tnuocca posted:So yeah, it's nice to observe that indeed politicians often don't care about morality and that government policy is often immoral, I'd say it's a little extreme to divorce morality from politics entirely but whatever, the question is whether this really invalidates critique that is itself borne of moral concerns. They're better than the wrongs which come without an amoral political system.
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Nov 20, 2014 20:14
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