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Habibi posted:That's not how things play out among real life slaves. And in the books, he's hardly the only one living in those conditions, some have been enduring them even longer, and he's just about unique in his evolved apathy. I know that. The history of slaves is if anything rather complex, and can not be simply reduced to simple servants/cottonpickers. As for Udinaas, he goes from Indebted to slavery, but still remains Indebted, and then becomes a slave to the Emperor, whom he abandons due to possession. He is also raped by an Ascendant, gets a half-dragon son in a another dimension and is then dragged around on a wild goose chase by a couple of less-than-happy Tiste. Edit:  He is in other words, pretty much a victim of fate and Eriksons version of Jonah, and I imagine during these rather specific circumstances saying "gently caress it" to the whole thing is not far away.
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Nov 14, 2014 11:02
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I didn't really see Udinaas as apathetic. He's the only one that treats Rhulad as a person rather than a concept. Rhulad's entire family, understandably, flat out gives up on him as a human (edur) being. His level of compassion throughout the series is nearly unparalleled. edit: For content, I'm on my second reading of the series (on Bonehunters) and I really think it is even more satisfying the second time through. Knowing what the end result is really puts the series into perspective. Also, I get to realize that almost all of the concepts that I thought came out of nowhere later in the series were actually referenced early on but I was just in too much of a rush (and didn't see the bigger picture) to notice. It took a second reading to remember that the Crimson Guard are actually introduced in the first book and not Midnight Tides. On that topic, Iron Bars I wondered what the gently caress happened with him after the end of the series and then read ICE's books and was disappointed that a cool character was abandoned to ICE and barely used. Must have been Erickson's character? imagine dungeons fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Nov 15, 2014 |
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Nov 15, 2014 01:28
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ZombieLenin posted:Well you become an immortal and one of the most powerful beings in existence. So sudden douchbaggary isn't a shock.  wardrobe and immortality deal.
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Nov 15, 2014 03:56
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coyo7e posted:That's because he started out as the biggest douche in the bag. I can't think of many characters who're less mature and more arrogant, outside of maybe the Tiste Edur emporer dude who ended up with the lovely In all fairness, he chills the gently caress out after the first book though. I guess dying will do that for you.
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Nov 15, 2014 04:31
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Well there was a  phase that lasted a while after he came back.Then again, I can't really remember any character that becomes overjoyed at their ascendancy.
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Nov 16, 2014 21:12
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i read orb sceptre throne last week, and forge of darkness over the weekend. OST was the first & only esslemont book i've read. drat esslemont loves happy endings/refuses to killoff viewpoint characters like erikson. a few things in OST felt off, but overall i'm happy with it. i don't think i'll be picking up another esslemont book, and am looking forward to the next Kharkanas book.
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Nov 17, 2014 17:24
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Both are genre fantasy authors but Erikson is way better at plotting, structure, and can write some really good prose. Esslemont isn't any better than most other genre authors. He's not terrible, but looks bad in comparison to Erikson.
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Nov 17, 2014 19:04
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tuluk posted:i read orb sceptre throne last week, and forge of darkness over the weekend. For all of Esselmont's faults, I'm not sure this is one of them. His other books are better examples, but even in OST it's not exactly the case - the Second dies, and he's a pretty major POV character; while the main bad guy is defeated, there's a ton of collateral damage caused all over the continent; etc. e: wasn't FoD loving good though?
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Nov 17, 2014 19:15
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Habibi posted:e: wasn't FoD loving good though? I'm think I'm most interested in meeting Tiam because it still doesn't rally make a great deal of sense in any way. I'm also hoping that Osserc gets punched in the face in Fall of Light
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Nov 17, 2014 23:06
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Jose posted:I'm think I'm most interested in meeting Tiam because it still doesn't rally make a great deal of sense in any way. I'm also hoping that Osserc gets punched in the face in Fall of Light Yeah, hopefully we get to witness that. I also hope Osserc gets punched in the face in every book. Even books in which he's otherwise unmentioned should just have a single chapter that reads nothing but, "Osserc reeled from a backhanded blow across his face, a guttural cry escaping the ruin of his mouth."
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Nov 18, 2014 00:54
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Habibi posted:For all of Esselmont's faults, I'm not sure this is one of them. His other books are better examples, but even in OST it's not exactly the case - the Second dies, and he's a pretty major POV character; while the main bad guy is defeated, there's a ton of collateral damage caused all over the continent; etc. the dude you mentioned was so bland his death-to-save-his-people was 1000% assured by his 2nd in-story appearance in OST(for me). FoD was pretty good. all those tiste names bouncing around and changing over time into what they are in the main malazan books will be cool. silchas ruin + his buddy from the urusander legions will be interesting to follow, and i really want to see more vitr stuff happen in the kharkanas series. quantumfoam fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 18, 2014 02:38
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Just finished Deadhouse Gates after putting it down midway through a few months ago and jumped right in to MoI. Just got to Toc the Younger, as of this point, what's his deal? Can't remember who he is/ what happened to him in the first two books. Don't want to Google it and get spoiled.
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Nov 19, 2014 01:12
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himajinga posted:Just finished Deadhouse Gates after putting it down midway through a few months ago and jumped right in to MoI. Just got to Toc the Younger, as of this point, what's his deal? Can't remember who he is/ what happened to him in the first two books. Don't want to Google it and get spoiled. GotM spoiler only: One-eyed Claw archer that hangs with Paran for a while, disappears in the desert in the Chaos explosion that involves Bellurdan/Tattersail and probably Hairlock[?]. That's basically all you have at this point. He's not in DHG at all.
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Nov 19, 2014 01:38
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himajinga posted:Just finished Deadhouse Gates after putting it down midway through a few months ago and jumped right in to MoI. Just got to Toc the Younger, as of this point, what's his deal? Can't remember who he is/ what happened to him in the first two books. Don't want to Google it and get spoiled. Basically Hairlock threw him into a portal to Chaos, like a dick.
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Nov 19, 2014 03:00
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Zeitgueist posted:GotM spoiler only: Illuyankas posted:Basically Hairlock threw him into a portal to Chaos, like a dick. Oh yeah, cool thanks. No wonder I remembered the name only, I read GoTM like a year ago. The improvement in Erickson's prose over the course of these 3 books so far is staggering. MoI is already much easier comprehend than DHG while still retaining that air of "holy poo poo this world is insanely dense with history and mythology, I can't wait until I understand what the heck all that stuff in the last paragraph is referencing".
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Nov 19, 2014 16:28
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himajinga posted:Oh yeah, cool thanks. No wonder I remembered the name only, I read GoTM like a year ago. The improvement in Erickson's prose over the course of these 3 books so far is staggering. MoI is already much easier comprehend than DHG while still retaining that air of "holy poo poo this world is insanely dense with history and mythology, I can't wait until I understand what the heck all that stuff in the last paragraph is referencing". The first book was written like 10 years before the rest, as he shopped it to publishers who largely balked at it(and understandably so...having read the series I'm still kinda surprised, it's a tough sell). He's one of the fantasy authors like Sanderson who have a noticeably significant uptick in writing quality. I guess that says about the genre that we don't ask for much.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:09
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Zeitgueist posted:The first book was written like 10 years before the rest, as he shopped it to publishers who largely balked at it(and understandably so...having read the series I'm still kinda surprised, it's a tough sell). Yeah, I knew about the time difference, I just didn't think it'd be so dramatic. I haven't read any of Sanderson's stuff other than the final WoT books, but it's very much to his credit that he made those books as readable and interesting as they are, I don't think I'd enjoyed a WoT book since Crown of Swords, but I actually really thought the ones he wrote were some of the best in the series.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:16
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himajinga posted:Yeah, I knew about the time difference, I just didn't think it'd be so dramatic. I haven't read any of Sanderson's stuff other than the final WoT books, but it's very much to his credit that he made those books as readable and interesting as they are, I don't think I'd enjoyed a WoT book since Crown of Swords, but I actually really thought the ones he wrote were some of the best in the series. The difference between Elantris to his new Stormlight Archive books is drastic. Though it's hard to say what parts of the final 3 WoT books were his and where Jordans, there were copious notes left and apparently huge swathes of the final book were already laid out. Jordan could write some decent prose but he also wrote some bad stuff and got too far up his own rear end in world-building.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:26
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Zeitgueist posted:The difference between Elantris to his new Stormlight Archive books is drastic. Those last few WoT books turned Rand, Nynaeve, Egwene, etc...into actually interesting characters, and made the women in general behave like people instead of perpetually bitchy automatons, credit for which I have a really hard time attributing to Jordan. Strangely, I find I enjoy Sanderson's WoT books more than his own - including both Stormlight novels so far. Since what I have the hardest time with is his characterization and anti-Eriksonian tendency of force-feeding his audience data en masse, I wonder if having characters and plot knowledge largely completed and laid out, respectively, benefitted the finished product. Erikson's strength when it comes to writing isn't stylistic, but lies in his ability to weave and balance a dozen apparently disconnected plotlines for two thirds of a book, and then have every crash together so expertly that it keeps you turning pages even when the prose itself isn't perfect. This was my experience with GotM despite its at times rough style, and given that, at least as far as I'm concerned, it's a fairly rare skill among writers, I am surprised it took so long to get picked up - though given where the initial failures led, I can't say it bothers me.
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Nov 19, 2014 23:05
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Habibi posted:Those last few WoT books turned Rand, Nynaeve, Egwene, etc...into actually interesting characters, and made the women in general behave like people instead of perpetually bitchy automatons, credit for which I have a really hard time attributing to Jordan. Strangely, I find I enjoy Sanderson's WoT books more than his own - including both Stormlight novels so far. Since what I have the hardest time with is his characterization and anti-Eriksonian tendency of force-feeding his audience data en masse, I wonder if having characters and plot knowledge largely completed and laid out, respectively, benefitted the finished product. To be fair there is some extent to which Jordan's glacial development of those characters over 10 or 11 books or whatever allowed Sanderson to finally pull them together into "normal" characters...Nynaeve's major breakthrough came during a book Jordan wrote. That all said goddamn were his characters generally frustrating as poo poo, which is why everyone liked Mat so much because he just went around going "man this is some bullshit ya'll are fuckin' crazy" At any rate this isn't he WoT thread...
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Nov 20, 2014 16:20
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Habibi posted:Those last few WoT books turned Rand, Nynaeve, Egwene, etc...into actually interesting characters, and made the women in general behave like people instead of perpetually bitchy automatons, credit for which I have a really hard time attributing to Jordan. Strangely, I find I enjoy Sanderson's WoT books more than his own - including both Stormlight novels so far. Since what I have the hardest time with is his characterization and anti-Eriksonian tendency of force-feeding his audience data en masse, I wonder if having characters and plot knowledge largely completed and laid out, respectively, benefitted the finished product. Sanderson is definitely leagues better than Jordan at writing compelling women characters which is refreshing for fantasy in general. And in my opinion Erikson is better still, mostly because they aren't that much different from the men in efficacy. It's a refreshing recent trend that makes me less embarrassed to read fantasy these days. At least until you get somewhat questionable portrayals like Night Angel or Kingkiller. At least Brent Weeks recent Lightbringer series is a lot more mature anyway.
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Nov 20, 2014 16:39
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Xachariah posted:Sanderson is definitely leagues better than Jordan at writing compelling women characters which is refreshing for fantasy in general. And in my opinion Erikson is better still, mostly because they aren't that much different from the men in efficacy. RE: female characters in Erikson, people's names are so random seeming and there's so many supporting characters in varied roles that I often forget which sex they are (Stormy, Picker, and Blend for example). Also, is there a rhyme or reason for why people have names that are just regular words?
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Nov 20, 2014 17:01
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himajinga posted:RE: female characters in Erikson, people's names are so random seeming and there's so many supporting characters in varied roles that I often forget which sex they are (Stormy, Picker, and Blend for example). Also, is there a rhyme or reason for why people have names that are just regular words? Yeah the reason is apparently that for the most part a Malazan training drill sergeant called Braven Tooth nicknamed them based on personal traits during their training, except Fiddler which was Whiskeyjack's doing. Stormy has a temper, Blend is quiet, Picker picks her nose, Limp, uh, has a limp. Xachariah fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 17:17
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himajinga posted:RE: female characters in Erikson, people's names are so random seeming and there's so many supporting characters in varied roles that I often forget which sex they are (Stormy, Picker, and Blend for example). Also, is there a rhyme or reason for why people have names that are just regular words? Yes, and to add to what Xachariah said, you meet him briefly in what I think for you will be the next book (HoC)?
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Nov 20, 2014 18:40
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Xachariah posted:Yeah the reason is apparently that for the most part a Malazan training drill sergeant called Braven Tooth nicknamed them based on personal traits during their training, except Fiddler which was Whiskeyjack's doing. Stormy has a temper, Blend is quiet, Picker picks her nose, Limp, uh, has a limp. Yeah, and reasoning being(and I think explicitly stated more than once in the series) is that what happened before you joined the military is the past. You're in the military now and you need to leave the old you behind.
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Nov 20, 2014 19:09
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I think Limp actually keeps getting injured in the same leg, just to show that Braven Tooth's powers of prediction are uncanny and borderline magical. You'll definitely see the names and reasons for them getting more ridiculous as the series goes on (case in point: Skulldeath). edit: Yeah, that's the ridiculous part. Sergeant's gotta have a precognitive warren or something. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 22:28
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anilEhilated posted:I think Limp actually keeps getting injured in the same leg, just to show that Braven Tooth's powers of prediction are uncanny and borderline magical. You'll definitely see the names and reasons for them getting more ridiculous as the series goes on (case in point: Skulldeath).
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Nov 20, 2014 22:41
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himajinga posted:Yeah, I knew about the time difference, I just didn't think it'd be so dramatic. I haven't read any of Sanderson's stuff other than the final WoT books, but it's very much to his credit that he made those books as readable and interesting as they are, I don't think I'd enjoyed a WoT book since Crown of Swords, but I actually really thought the ones he wrote were some of the best in the series. I spent like 6 hours splicing the last three WOT Sanderson books into one book timeline wise to this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkoVqSXYFOjzdDhGMnI3dVEzaHBNamRXRko5SFBLZnc#gid=0. So TGS, TOM and AMOL are all combined, with the chapters moved because Sanderson had to split up the 4 main characters in the first 2 books. Trust me it reads SO much better. Send me a PM I've heard rumors on how to get it. Barreft fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Nov 21, 2014 |
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Nov 21, 2014 01:38
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Took a break from the Malazan universe for awhile. Came back and picked up Assail. This book is really not jiving with me, Esslemont doesn't do this many POVs well and the geography is really confusing with his uneven description of directions and locales. He seems to be trying really hard for the Erikson convergence goal but its very clumsy so far. Not sure if I should bother with the rest, about halfway through.
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Nov 21, 2014 15:42
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The Gunslinger posted:Took a break from the Malazan universe for awhile. Came back and picked up Assail. This book is really not jiving with me, Esslemont doesn't do this many POVs well and the geography is really confusing with his uneven description of directions and locales. He seems to be trying really hard for the Erikson convergence goal but its very clumsy so far. Not sure if I should bother with the rest, about halfway through. It doesn't really end. It just fizzles out and nothing finishes. No wrap-up, no nothing. It just sort of ends at a chapter and you're like "Thats it? What the gently caress." The super-annoying "who is the mystery character" thing doesn't get any better.
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Nov 21, 2014 17:02
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Assail was pretty bland, yeah. It also had a preponderance of sections/chapters ending with a character going unconscious, and Esslemont never failed to use the phrase "... and he/she knew no more." Every goddamned time.
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Nov 21, 2014 17:48
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Spermy Smurf posted:It doesn't really end. It just fizzles out and nothing finishes. No wrap-up, no nothing. It just sort of ends at a chapter and you're like "Thats it? What the gently caress." That is...not at all encouraging to hear. Esslemont 
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Nov 21, 2014 20:08
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Assail is basically like sobering up in mid-sex with someone you realize you find unattractive but you figure you're already there so you might as well follow things through to their logical conclusion but then in the end neither of you climaxes.
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Nov 21, 2014 20:55
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Jethiss is by far the worst "mystery character" either Malazan author has done. It's going to be completely stupid if he turns out to be Rake, but if he isn't Rake, then why did ICE drop so many hints indicating that he is, only to not reveal anything at the end of the book? As I was reading Assail I was literally shaking my head at how loving dumb that plotline was. EDIT: I said earlier that I liked Fisher's chapters, but in retrospect, they're brought down by ICE's complete inability to write songs and poetry. There's a part where the Losts convince Fisher to sing them a song before the big fight, so he recites some poo poo that sounds like it was written by an angsty 15 year old, and they're like "WOW DUDE, THAT'S SO DEEP AND TRAGIC." There were a lot of eye-rolling moments in Assail, but that one really stuck out for me. Juaguocio fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Nov 21, 2014 |
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Nov 21, 2014 21:02
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ICE's books haven't really done anything for me. I haven't read Assail yet, nor does it seem like I will based on the reviews. I got caught up wanting to know what happened to certain characters but I've realized that an open end is better than a poorly written end for me. I'm sure ICE was crucial to forming the stories to characters I fell in love with but he's just a sub-par author and I'd rather not know what happens than know than something stupid happens. edit: FoD, on the other hand, challenged all of our preconceptions of what history was. I really appreciated that its first person take was so different to the perception of people 3,000 years later. I can't wait to see what other notions we're disabused of. imagine dungeons fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Nov 22, 2014 |
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Nov 22, 2014 01:54
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Ok I gave up on Assail after Kyle lumped off the 17th pair of forearms. Also Kyle. Again. Gotta get him in every book. I thought Esslemont was improving after OST but Assail is a painful regression in every way. I'm done with his stuff, its just not worth the time. The Crimson Guard were so much more interesting when not fleshed out by him and I don't want to know what he'll do with the Silverfox storyline after seeing how Iron Bars has turned out.
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Nov 22, 2014 05:20
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The Gunslinger posted:Ok I gave up on Assail after Kyle lumped off the 17th pair of forearms. Also Kyle. Again. Gotta get him in every book. I thought Esslemont was improving after OST but Assail is a painful regression in every way. I'm done with his stuff, its just not worth the time. The Crimson Guard were so much more interesting when not fleshed out by him and I don't want to know what he'll do with the Silverfox storyline after seeing how Iron Bars has turned out. Fox. Silver Fox.
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Nov 22, 2014 06:50
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Habibi posted:Fox. Silver Fox. 'Now I know why they call you a fox.'
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Nov 22, 2014 12:57
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Xachariah posted:It's a refreshing recent trend that makes me less embarrassed to read fantasy these days. At least until you get somewhat questionable portrayals like Night Angel or Kingkiller. At least Brent Weeks recent Lightbringer series is a lot more mature anyway. I don't even remember a female character from Night Angel. I'm not sure if that's reinforcing your point or not.
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Nov 22, 2014 17:10
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I Own Soulz posted:I don't even remember a female character from Night Angel. I'm not sure if that's reinforcing your point or not. There was a Robert Jordan-esque female mage school that were comically "radical feminist" caricatures. Also a red haired female assassin who got jealous of the main character's girlfriend and forced him to be "bonded" to her. Also she was sexually abused and because of that is slutty or something and it's all just a bit squeamish. Reminded me of the whole damaged woman BDSM rape thing in Goodkind's objectivist magnus opus Sword of Truth.
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Nov 22, 2014 17:32
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