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FuriousxGeorge posted:All 12 year olds who do not make perfect split second life or death decisions kind of deserve death, really. He made the choice to be holding something a cop could confuse for a weapon, he has to live with the consequences.
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Nov 23, 2014 07:59
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OK I don't get it, the kid literally drew on the cops.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:00
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Berk Berkly posted:Well the logical conclusion to that is to basically shoot everybody because anybody could be a dangerous criminal that could want to shoot/stab you with their hidden weapons of doom and that all situations will be escalated until only the cop is left standing. I'm not fine with that, but when interacting with the police, it's a good idea to assume that is exactly the logic that an officer will employ without a second thought if anything occurs to make them feel threatened, like aiming a weapon at them. e: would there be any legal grounds for prosecuting whoever gave him the BB gun, assuming it was an adult? Also people keep calling BB guns toys, which is hilariously incorrect and dishonest obfuscation, or comes from people who have never even owned an air gun. Zeno-25 fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 08:01
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Twelve year olds don't know police will shoot you for holding a toy before giving you a chance to explain it's a toy. That, or youngest suicide by cop ever I guess. Or maybe we should just wait to find out if he was on the THC and just hallucinating.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:02
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FuriousxGeorge posted:Twelve year olds don't know police will shoot you for holding a toy before giving you a chance to explain it's a toy. That, or youngest suicide by cop ever I guess. Or maybe we should just wait to find out if he was on the THC and just hallucinating. At a very young age I was told not to brandish toy guns because the cops would kill me, but I had very liberal parents who worried about that kind of thing.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:06
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Zeno-25 posted:I'm not fine with that, but when interacting with the police, it's a good idea to assume that is exactly the logic that an officer will employ without a second thought if anything occurs to make them feel threatened, like aiming a weapon at them. Uh, we are talking about a 12 year old boy here who was likely scared shitless by the cops: quote:The officer got out of the car and told the boy to put his hands up. The boy reached into his waistband, pulled out the gun and the rookie officer fired two shots, Tomba said. It doesn't say he aimed or shot at the cops. Grabbing the gun was dumb but he could just have been panicking and trying to throw it down or hold it out to say it was not a actual firearm. Who knows because he got a gut full of bullet before anything else happened. Edit: And yes, BB Guns and the like are toy guns. They are bought and given to children as toys. Paint guns are a little more sporty and teen/adult oriented but are still for the purposes of playing around in mock battles as toys. Berk Berkly fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 08:07
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US Cops are getting really good at killing kids. http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...-266094361.html http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/24/us-usa-louisiana-shooting-idUSKCN0HJ08R20140924 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/03/joseph-weekley-manslaughter-dismissed-aiyana-stanley-jones_n_5927294.html http://www.presstv.ir/detail/189942.html Hey, those kids should have known better. What were they expecting from Cops? To not get shot? Don't be ridiculous.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:11
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FuriousxGeorge posted:Twelve year olds don't know police will shoot you for holding a toy before giving you a chance to explain it's a toy. That, or youngest suicide by cop ever I guess. Or maybe we should just wait to find out if he was on the THC and just hallucinating. If you saw a kid pull a gun out of his waistband what would you think? In a split second.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:12
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It's always safest to assume that every cop is a shaky, paranoid sociopath who is scared shitless and will kill at the slightest provocation. "Go home alive at any cost" has replaced "protect and serve" a long time ago.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:13
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Toy guns are projectile-less noisemakers ("cap guns") and back when I was a kid (early 90s) even those were made to look like replica pistols. Something cannot be both a weapon and a toy. When you give a child an air gun, you are giving them a weapon, and I was fortunate enough to have parents smart enough to make sure I knew that, and I was never allowed to take it off the property until I was much older.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:16
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SedanChair posted:If you saw a kid pull a gun out of his waistband what would you think? In a split second. That it was probably fake. Especially had I just been told that!
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Nov 23, 2014 08:17
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SedanChair posted:If you saw a kid pull a gun out of his waistband what would you think? In a split second. I would recite my Killalogy professor's Zen like teachings on BEING the Warrior. quote:Toy guns are projectile-less noisemakers ("cap guns") and back when I was a kid (90s) even those were made to look like replica pistols. Something cannot be both a weapon and a toy. When you give a child an air gun, you are giving them a weapon, and I was fortunate enough to have parents smart enough to make sure I knew that, and I was never allowed to take it off the property until I was much older. That is a really weak and lovely semantic argument but are you saying that if a kid is dumb enough to take a his quantum super-positioned toy/weapon off their property that the cops have every right to shot him? Like, what if they roll up to your lawn while you and a friend are screwing around with your toy-guns-weapons and they blast your asses? I mean, they can't assume those aren't real guns.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:20
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FuriousxGeorge posted:That it was probably fake. Especially had I just been told that! "Probably" is kind of a shaky assurance. I just don't see the problem with shooting the kid.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:21
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SedanChair posted:"Probably" is kind of a shaky assurance. I just don't see the problem with shooting the kid.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:22
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:He's twelve. Too young to die. Too stupid to live. BLAMBLAM!
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Nov 23, 2014 08:23
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SedanChair posted:If you saw a kid pull a gun out of his waistband what would you think? In a split second. If it was a twelve year old and I was a police officer with no reason to believe that a loving child was about to shoot me? Probably anything but shoot him in the chest. Seriously sedanchair... I'm worried about you. Please tell me you are trolling. 
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Nov 23, 2014 08:25
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Quote is not edit.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:26
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SedanChair posted:"Probably" is kind of a shaky assurance. I just don't see the problem with shooting the kid. The problem is more in, just based on the story as the police present it so far, in how the whole thing was approached. Get out of car, scream. "Hands up!" Shoot. Is there no room for, "Son, I need you to hold very still and answer me. Is that a real gun?" Or maybe to use a loudspeaker from a distance away so you don't have to confront him that directly? Is there no way to handle a 12 year old with a probably fake gun besides pointing a gun at him and seeing what happens? FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 08:26
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Berk Berkly posted:I would recite my Killalogy professor's Zen like teachings on BEING the Warrior. No, you see, he's smart and
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Nov 23, 2014 08:27
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Berk Berkly posted:Uh, we are talking about a 12 year old boy here who was likely scared shitless by the cops: I knew "don't point toy guns at people and especially cops" at 6-7 years old. Also toy guns and BB guns are different things. A toy gun is a brightly colored thing that shoots plastic balls, a $30 BB pistol will put out a .177 metal ball at 350-500fps and will look for all intents and purposes like a real pistol: a friend has a replica XD45 that cost him $35, and outside from the orange tip (not visible when it's in someone's waistband, or if removed), it looks dead-on even up close, let alone at 10-20 feet. They're fun toys as well, but you don't give a BB gun to a kid without teaching him about it. And no matter if you're black or white, rich or poor, you do *not* draw down on a pair of cops. Also, they're called markers. A paint gun is what you use to paint houses.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:27
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Berk Berkly posted:I would recite my Killalogy professor's Zen like teachings on BEING the Warrior. The kid was obviously being irresponsible with his air gun and when you're irresponsible with a weapon, poo poo like this happens. There is noting irrational about the officer's decisions in this situation. The kid may have been 12 but he still was the one to gently caress up when he pulled his weapon out. I'm not indulging your hypothetical.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:28
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Caros posted:If it was a twelve year old and I was a police officer with no reason to believe that a loving child was about to shoot me? Probably anything but shoot him in the chest. Children shoot people though. We're not talking about an unarmed person, or Amadou Diallo pulling out something that doesn't look like a gun at all. Toy guns look like guns, and twelve year olds shoot people sometimes. If it's OK for police to ever, ever use lethal force (which I am willing to debate) it was OK in this instance.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:28
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FuriousxGeorge posted:The problem is more in, just based on the story as the police present it so far, in how the whole thing was approached. Get out of car, scream. "Hands up!" Shoot. Yep. Pretty much all situations are pre-escalated mentally by the cops to life and death. The hilariously stupid "Killalogy" is basically the attitude status-quo.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:28
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SedanChair posted:"Probably" is kind of a shaky assurance. I just don't see the problem with shooting the kid. Shoot the child, he only probably isn't dangerous! I. I can't even begin. Are you serious.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:29
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Zeno-25 posted:The kid was obviously being irresponsible with his air gun and when you're irresponsible with a weapon, poo poo like this happens. There is noting irrational about the officer's decisions in this situation. The kid may have been 12 but he still was the one to gently caress up when he pulled his weapon out. I'm not indulging your hypothetical. Kid fucks up, kid dies. Cop fucks up, kid dies. There is no hypothetical, there is only more dead kids.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:30
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quote:Children shoot people though. I just loving love the 2nd Amendment and living in a country full of loving guns so god drat much. God Bless America.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:30
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Since we can't control actual guns, for any reason. Maybe we should outlaw toy guns. All of them. forever. No paintball, no airsoft, no nerf. IT IS TOO DANGEROUS. A toy gun in the hands of a prepubescent child is too threatening. A gun-like object, such as a wallet, or nothing, too threatening. Keep the cops safe from having to take 6 months paid time off every time they put 17 hot ones downrange at a 6th grader.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:31
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Naturally Selected posted:I knew "don't point toy guns at people and especially cops" ... And no matter if you're black or white, rich or poor, you do *not* draw down on a pair of cops. He didn't aim at or make any aggressive verbal indications at the cops. He pulled it from his pants and they shot him before he could even drop it or say anything. Do you think this was the appropriate outcome? And I love the whole, "Yea, I knew not to sling guns around before I could walk" anecdotes. Keep them coming as if they matter.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:34
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If we're going to take a gamble, where the stakes are "if the gun is real and the cop acts with restraint, the cop might die. if the gun is fake and the cop acts with violence, the child might die." If we're going to take that gamble. The person whose life should be on the line is the person who voluntarily entered a career that places you in harm's way to be a protector for civilians. Not the child.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:35
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That's actually a reasonable position, but really far from what we currently seem to expect from police.Slo-Tek posted:Since we can't control actual guns, for any reason. Maybe we should outlaw toy guns. All of them. forever. No paintball, no airsoft, no nerf. IT IS TOO DANGEROUS. A toy gun in the hands of a prepubescent child is too threatening. A gun-like object, such as a wallet, or nothing, too threatening. It sounds like this kid was shot once in the chest and taken to the hospital. I mean, I can't even complain about the cop's training.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:35
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Berk Berkly posted:Kid fucks up, kid dies. You sound like some sort of anti-abortion nutcase. Get a grip on your emotions.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:36
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Ditocoaf posted:If we're going to take a gamble, where the stakes are "if the gun is real and the cop acts with restraint, the cop might die. if the gun is fake and the cop acts with violence, the child might die." If we're going to take that gamble. The person whose life should be on the line is the person who voluntarily entered a career that places you in harms way to be a protector for civilians. Not the child. No. As a cop your life is more important than everyone else and you have to take painstaking efforts to take down anyone that could even possibly be a threat to your pure-strain existence. What do you mean there are much more dangerous and lethal professions? Zeno-25 posted:You sound like some sort of anti-abortion nutcase. Get a grip on your emotions. What are you gonna do, call the cops?
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Nov 23, 2014 08:37
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SedanChair posted:That's actually a reasonable position, but really far from what we currently seem to expect from police. Then what we expect from police is wrong, and we should be rebuilding our police structure from the ground up, or as close to that as politically possible. Everyone we entrust with the authority of the police force should go into that position with the express understanding that they will be putting their lives at risk in order to protect civilians. (They should be compensated well for that, of course, because a lot of people who are currently cops probably wouldn't want to be cops in that case. I'm not volunteering for the position myself.) You don't go around shooting civilians pre-emptively to save your own life, that isn't what cops are for. It shouldn't be what cops are for. Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 08:38
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SedanChair posted:Children shoot people though. We're not talking about an unarmed person, or Amadou Diallo pulling out something that doesn't look like a gun at all. Toy guns look like guns, and twelve year olds shoot people sometimes. If it's OK for police to ever, ever use lethal force (which I am willing to debate) it was OK in this instance. Do children frequently draw firearms on armed police officers for literally no loving reason? I'm sorry, but I would really like to hold police to a standard where they don't gun down children in the streets on the assumption that said child is planning on shooting them. Maybe fix your problem by getting rid of guns? But God forbid we ever consider that. And no, it was not okay in this case, because the child didn't actually have a gun.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:39
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SedanChair posted:I mean, I can't even complain about the cop's training. He shot a Child who was no threat to him. There is no sane country where that is "Well done, exactly as your should have done" Zeno-25 posted:You sound like some sort of anti-abortion nutcase. Get a grip on your emotions. 
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Nov 23, 2014 08:39
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I think the cop shooting the kid was acceptable, but only if the cop was a combat vet and when the kid pointed the gun at him he had a flash back to the young Middle Eastern child he gave sweets to, only to have the haji pull out an AK and blow him a way. He awakes from this nightmare to find a wounded pure American child, who he tenderly cradles while looking up into the air and shouting "NOOOOOOOOOO!"
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Nov 23, 2014 08:39
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For reference the gun did not look like a toy at all. 
Plinkey fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 08:42
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Berk Berkly posted:What are you gonna do, call the cops? Nah, just laugh at the terrible hysterics some are expressing over this incident (the same sort of crap that makes me prefer not to associate with most other leftists) and pour another glass of wine. Overall though I really have learned a lot about the legal process relevant to all of the Grand Jury happening in Ferguson, which is exactly the sort of high-quality info and arguments that I mostly lurk here for anyway.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:43
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Fans posted:He shot a Child who was no threat to him. There is no sane country where that is "Well done, exactly as your should have done" The child literally appeared to be a threat. If it turns out that this was a '50s looking ray gun or something I'll be happy to eat my words but my understanding of situation is: quote:The officer got out of the car and told the boy to put his hands up. The boy reached into his waistband, pulled out the gun and the rookie officer fired two shots, Tomba said. "Put your hands up" doesn't mean "pull what appears to be a gun out of your waistband." I understand and advocate that police should be less jumpy and less quick to solve problems with their sidearm, but to expect them not to shoot people (even kids) who draw on them is asking them to be martyrs. e: yeah I wouldn't have been able to ID this as a toy gun.
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Nov 23, 2014 08:45
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Caros posted:Do children frequently draw firearms on armed police officers for literally no loving reason? There was no assumption. Call for kid with gun. Kid has gun. Kid draws gun. Do you assume guns are fake until proven otherwise? There's more than the cop's safety to consider in this situation, like all the other people there. And considering this was a single shot and not another ridiculous mag-dump duet, the cop responded as he should have. Now, if the gun was obviously a toy gun (brightly colored, etc) then the cops hosed up. If it wasn't, then they were in the right and whoever gave it he kid a pistol and didn't teach him about it hosed up. EDIT: just saw the picture of the gun and yeah that's not a loving toy gun. Absolutely zero safety markings, the barrel profile even looks correct, holy poo poo. Maybe I just live in an oppressive police state of NYC, but you'd get arrested for that thing in a second under the "don't modify toys to look like real guns" statute.
Naturally Selected fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 08:46
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