Welcome earthlings to the Awful Book of the Month! In this thread, we choose one work of Resources: Project Gutenberg - http://www.gutenberg.org - A database of over 17000 books available online. If you can suggest books from here, that'd be the best. SparkNotes - http://www.sparknotes.com/ - A very helpful Cliffnotes-esque site, but much better, in my opinion. If you happen to come in late and need to catch-up, you can get great character/chapter/plot summaries here. For recommendations on future material, suggestions on how to improve the club, or just a general rant, feel free to PM me. Past Books of the Month 2011: January: John Keats, Endymion Febuary/March: Miguel Cervantes, Don Quixote April: Laurell K. Hamilton, Obsidian Butterfly May: Richard A. Knaak - Diablo #1: Legacy of Blood June: Pamela Britton - On The Move July: Raymond Chandler - The Big Sleep August: Louis L'Amour - Bendigo Shafter September: Ian Fleming - Moonraker October: Ray Bradbury - Something Wicked This Way Comes November: John Ringo - Ghost December: James Branch Cabell - Jurgen 2012: January: G.K. Chesterton - The Man Who Was Thursday Febuary: M. Somerset Maugham - Of Human Bondage March: Joseph Heller - Catch-22 April: Zack Parsons - Liminal States May: Haruki Murakami - Norwegian Wood June: James Joyce - Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man July: William S. Burroughs - Naked Lunch August: William Faulkner - The Sound & The Fury September/October: Leo Tolstoy - War & Peace November: David Mitchell - Cloud Atlas December: Kurt Vonnegut - Mother Night 2013 January: Walter M. Miller - A Canticle for Liebowitz Febuary: Alfred Bester - The Stars My Destination March: Kazuo Ishiguro - Remains Of The Day April: Don Delillo - White Noise May: Anton LeVey - The Satanic Bible June/July: Susanna Clarke - Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell August: Michael Swanwick - Stations of the Tide September: John Wyndham - Day of the Triffids October: Shirley Jackson - The Haunting of Hill House November: Iain Banks - The Wasp Factory December: Roderick Thorp - Nothing Lasts Forever 2014: January: Ursula K. LeGuin - The Left Hand of Darkness February: Mikhail Bulgalov - Master & Margarita March: Richard P. Feynman -- Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! April: James Joyce -- Dubliners May: Gabriel Garcia Marquez -- 100 Years of Solitude June: Howard Zinn -- A People's History of the United States July: Mary Renault -- The Last of the Wine August: Barbara Tuchtman -- The Guns of August September: Jane Austen -- Pride and Prejudice October: Roger Zelazny -- A Night in the Lonesome October Current:John Gardner: Grendel You can find it on Amazon here: [url]http://www.amazon.com/Grendel-John-Gardner/dp/0679723110 quote:
About the Author quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gardner_(American_writer) Discussion, Questions & Themes: There's Lots to talk about with this. A few angles: 1) Just straight up read the book, tell us what you think. Is it a depressing novel or not? How reliable a narrator is Grendel? Exactly how much are we supposed to agree with him? Do we agree with him? 2) Compare and contrast with the original Beowulf 3) Look at it from the angle of Gardner's philosophy and morality. What's he trying to do here? What are the twelve great ideas of western civilization? Is Gardner on to something with his analysis, or is he full of poo poo? Is Grendel? 4) Something I missed until I read a bunch of critical stuff for this re-read: there's a sign of the zodiac in each chapter (for example, Ch. 1 opens with a Ram). What the hell are they doing here? Are they supposed to be signposts to the "twelve big ideas" ? Pacing Let's say a chapter a day; EDIT: scratch this this is a short book and I think everyone probably knows how it ends already. The forum rules just say spoiler tags for things published within the past six months, and I'm pretty sure Beowulf has been out longer than that. Further Resources: I have a first edition of this one and so I took a bunch of photos of the cover, jacket art, and the interior art illustrations. http://imgur.com/a/EBnux#zonB4Bn I'll post further discussion articles once we hit Day 12. Lots of people have theories on how to analyze it but I'm not sure I agree with them completely. Final Note: If you have any suggestions to change, improve or assess the book club generally, please PM or email me -- i.e., keep it out of this thread -- at least until into the last five days of the month, just so we don't derail discussion of the current book with meta-discussion. I do want to hear new ideas though, seriously, so please do actually PM or email me or whatever, or if you can't do either of those things, just hold that thought till the last five days of the month before posting it in this thread. Thanks, and I hope everyone enjoys the book! Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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# ? Nov 3, 2014 02:22 |
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# ? May 10, 2024 00:20 |
Or if you just aren't into books we can just watch and discuss the . . . animated version? Starring Peter Ustinov? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX_xr-tK4WU
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# ? Nov 3, 2014 06:00 |
Just to get the discussion rolling, there are two things I'm really noticing with this re-read: 1) Right from the very start Grendel is just flat-out insane from loneliness and isolation. The opening to this is like what Howl might have been if Allen Ginsberg had been raised by wolves in a frozen marsh. 2) This isn't a book that's worrying at all about anachronism, is it?
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# ? Nov 3, 2014 16:18 |
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How important is it to read Beowulf before starting this?
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# ? Nov 4, 2014 12:39 |
Crashbee posted:How important is it to read Beowulf before starting this? Essentially zero importance. I think one major reason Grendel is so popular in high school curriculums is because it's a way to introduce high school kids to the Beowulf story while also talking about lots of other things AND not having to teach anyone Old English. I mean, you'll get more out of it the more you know of Beowulf, sure, but considering that Grendel dies roughly a thousand lines or so into Beowulf, but Grendel is a twelve chapter novel, yeah, most of the action here takes place before Beowulf starts. Probably all you need to know about Beowulf is the wikipedia summary: quote:In the poem, Beowulf, a hero of the Geats in Scandinavia, comes to the aid of Hrođgar, the king of the Danes, whose mead hall (in Heorot) has been under attack by a monster known as Grendel. After Beowulf slays him, Grendel's mother attacks the hall and is then also defeated. Victorious, Beowulf goes home to Geatland in Sweden and later becomes king of the Geats. After a period of fifty years has passed, Beowulf defeats a dragon, but is fatally wounded in the battle. After his death, his attendants bury him in a tumulus, a burial mound, in Geatland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf EDIT: let me rephrase. It'll help to have read Beowulf, but it's not really necessary. This book is mostly about different philosophical ideas. He's mostly just using the Beowulf story as a framework to hang them on. There are a lot of anachronisms and even when he's making a direct reference to Beowulf he's doing so for some reason that matters for the point(s) he's trying to make in Grendel. For example, when he references the bit about the whale-battle from the original Beowulf, I'm pretty sure he's just doing it because he wants to work in the "fish" astrological sign in that chapter. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Nov 4, 2014 |
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# ? Nov 4, 2014 13:32 |
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Oh man, this is my literal favorite book. Had a really big effect on teenage me. I'm interested to know what people coming in as adults will think.
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# ? Nov 4, 2014 16:50 |
It's definitely a book that reads very differently as an adult, which I wasn't expecting. When I first read this I was fairly young and it just came across as a kind of dark primal scream. Read it again in college and it seemed like, ok, there are some puzzle pieces hidden under there but it's still mostly a single long scream. Reading it now it's like the whole thing is as intricately put together as a crossword. The thing is though that I think all three of those readings are relatively valid. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Nov 5, 2014 |
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# ? Nov 5, 2014 00:59 |
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Oh Goddamn, this book is so good. Love to see first timers' reactions to certain segments, especially involving the Dragon.
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# ? Nov 8, 2014 18:52 |
Hrm. Are people having a hard time getting this one started? Seems like there's low activity this month but maybe it's my imagination. It's available on Amazon in a kindle edition! If people are feeling intimidated by the philosophytalk above, don't be -- this really is a book you can just dive into and read, without preparation. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Nov 9, 2014 |
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 01:11 |
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Yeah I first read the book as it was assigned to us in 10th grade. It's short and can be very easily enjoyed just on the surface level alone.
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:08 |
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WHAT! I couldn't find the Kindle edition can you link?
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 10:57 |
Kindle edition is here : http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003N9AZGE/ref=r_soa_w_d Complete with a "read first chapter for free" button =)
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# ? Nov 9, 2014 15:27 |
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I'm in Oz, doesn't seem to work.
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# ? Nov 10, 2014 02:23 |
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Finished the Dragon chapter and holy poo poo.The Dragon posted:The essence of life is to be found in the frustration of established order. The Universe refuses the deadening influence of complete conformity. And yet in its refusal, it passes toward novel order as a primary requisite for important experience. We have to explain the aim at forms of order, and the aim at novelty of order, and the meaning of success, and the measure of failure.. The correlation between philosophy and this book is definitely here. I wonder what The Dragon meant by "Seek out gold and sit on it" Does he want Grendel to leave behind a legacy?
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# ? Nov 13, 2014 14:32 |
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bleeding pebbles posted:Finished the Dragon chapter and holy poo poo. Fun fact: a large part of the Dragon's speech is taken from Alfred North Whitehead's book Process and Reality.
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# ? Nov 14, 2014 00:44 |
The Vosgian Beast posted:Fun fact: a large part of the Dragon's speech is taken from Alfred North Whitehead's book Process and Reality. Which adds a few layers of subtext all on its own. Grendel's befuddlement isn't unique: quote:This is not to say that Whitehead's thought was widely accepted or even well-understood. His philosophical work is generally considered to be among the most difficult to understand in all of the western canon.[45] Even professional philosophers struggled to follow Whitehead's writings. One famous story illustrating the level of difficulty of Whitehead's philosophy centers around the delivery of Whitehead's Gifford lectures in 1927–28 – following Arthur Eddington's lectures of the year previous – which Whitehead would later publish as Process and Reality: Grendel's befuddlement is an injoke; everyone is confused by Whitehead, even other philosophers. My favorite bit in that chapter is something I just caught on this read-through; the Dragon's statement that "A certain man will absurdly kill me. A terrible pity -- loss of a remarkable form of life. Conservationists will howl." Emphasis on that word absurdly. If we view Absurdist philosophy as a counterpoint to materialist, concrete, realist philosophy . . . bleeding pebbles posted:
I *think* the Dragon is deliberately giving Grendel pointless, worthless advice. You could also argue that the Dragon is advocating pure hedonism --- find something you enjoy and wallow in it, and bedamn to morality. The Dragon isn't one for clear statements.
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# ? Nov 17, 2014 07:13 |
quote:"Poor Grendel's had an accident," I whisper. "So may you all." Suggestions for next month? Christmas themed? Right now I'm leaning towards Christopher Moore's The Stupidest Angel.
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# ? Nov 20, 2014 14:09 |
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Alternatively.
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# ? Nov 20, 2014 20:08 |
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Aw, poo poo, I read this book my freshman year of high school! Really loved it, too. Made a (really lovely) interactive fiction game in Inform 7 based on the philosophical themes for my final project and got an A on it (it was an open-ended assignment where you could create any original creative work based on the novel or its themes). Good times.
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# ? Nov 21, 2014 00:21 |
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I'll have to look into this Alfred North Whitehead person. Never heard of him before and by the look of it he sounds pretty interesting. I'm requesting Return of the Solider for December. It is about a dollar on the kindle store and this will hopefully apply for all countries this time around. The book is under 100 pages so if you are busy this December, it will fit right in. Plus someone I know said it was one of the best books ever. On top of that, the Modern Library copy of I own has a reader's questionnaire type thing at the end of the book. I do have more questions and comments about Grendel but I'll save time for that later. We still have about a week to talk about this book anyways.
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# ? Nov 23, 2014 18:48 |
bleeding pebbles posted:
Discussion can keep going after the "official" month ends -- I won't close the thread! That said considering how slow discussion's been moving, if anyone is holding back some last-minute thoughts, please share!
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# ? Nov 23, 2014 22:20 |
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Well here are some real comments: It's interesting how most of the book was Grendel demeaning the humans. Would the book worse if it was just overblown thoughtsof Grendel in some way of stream of conscious thought? I felt like half the book was just Grendel describing what was going on in the meadhalls. He was a reliable narrator for he always told the truth in the end. He only added he personal, negative perception. It is funny how that turns out because Grendel appears to be the only fleshed out character. He is so cynical and searching for morality that it wouldn't be as good if there was other major characters. Grendel returning the solider that tried to kill him was an interesting example of how he couldn't make up his mind. Although in the end he chose to full on attack the meadhall and decided to become what he wanted to be in his instincts. I'm not sure if it was the boredom of his life or how he was born into his life as a monster that made him do it, but it seemed like the only way to go for him. In that case I am leaning towards to agree with Grendel's decisions. He had to take his chances to the next level. This is not a depressing book to me for his contemplative view he had and his inevitable fate that he chose and was satisfied with, given his last words. He did have free will, which would match up with Sartre's philosophy, again given the circumstances he didn't have enough wiggle room to be a friendly monster. The meeting with The Dragon changed his attitude despite The Dragon going over his head most of the time. I wonder what he took from it and made him angrier from that point on. The Dragon giving the pointless advice seemed like something he would do to incite Grendel's already hatred for humanity. It's like Grendel depended on a person smarter than him to give him an excuse to do all of the killings. Regardless of how badly he translated The Dragon's speech. The 'fiction should aspire to discover those human values that are universally sustaining' statement by Gardner resonated with me to a point. Yet I don't know what Gardner meant by his morality to other author's morality. That went over my head. Along with Gore Vidal's criticisms. Though I didn't really read into Vidal's problems with the book to be honest. The 12 Civilizations thing is a concept that is way over my head. I might never understand with this book and I don't know where to begin. Maybe the anachronism thing you brought up earlier, Hieronymous Alloy? I did really enjoy the book. Grendel is a book full of the processing of morality.
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# ? Nov 24, 2014 16:51 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Discussion can keep going after the "official" month ends -- I won't close the thread! You're making this book sound really fun, but unfortunately my copy's at home, so I won't be able to pick it up before mid-December.
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# ? Nov 24, 2014 17:21 |
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# ? May 10, 2024 00:20 |
The two suggestions y'all gave were great but I got behind on my tasks this weekend due to holiday events (and video games) and didn't get a poll up in time, so I'm going to stick with putting up Stupidest Angel. It's not exactly literature but it is fun and silly so maybe that'll make it more accessible. There's a dog. I'll get a thread up later today.
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# ? Dec 1, 2014 15:19 |