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sullat posted:Heck, in California you don't need either, you can just take the bar exam. But I think in Lincoln's day, there was no actual exam, just an "evaluation" by the bar. I think if you don't sit with an ABA-accredited degree you also have to sit for the "baby bar." Also you're right re: Lincoln, I just love that you can still Lincoln it up kind of.
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Nov 23, 2014 19:22
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Lincolning it up
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Nov 23, 2014 19:44
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SedanChair posted:Lincolning it up Nah, Lincolning it up is the apprenticeship system, not California's ridiculous-rear end system.
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Nov 23, 2014 19:46
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Autodidactic learning is pretty cool in theory, and smart important people have excelled in their fields without formal schooling. Besides Lincoln, there was John Frank Stevens, the most productive Chief Engineer of the Panama Canal. Today in the Great State of Maine, you don't need a law degree to pass the bar and begin practicing-- but you do need at least a bachelor's and at least one year of Law School to take the bar in the first place. Sort of like when college football players skip senior year to go straight to the draft, except with less self-inflicted tragedy when things don't turn out well. Anyone who has been to college knows that college is basically:
writing or answering test questions about what you read; going to class to hear teachers say the same thing as the textbooks; and being graded on whether the textbook's information is inside your head now. A college degree is basically a piece of paper that proves you read and understood a certain bunch of textbooks. Of course, there's no alternative reliable way to prove a person read those same textbooks without a college degree, so...
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Nov 23, 2014 19:48
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Also I'm confused, who is the beautiful man in that picture?
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Nov 23, 2014 19:51
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Nameless_Steve posted:Autodidactic learning is pretty cool in theory, and smart important people have excelled in their fields without formal schooling. Besides Lincoln, there was John Frank Stevens, the most productive Chief Engineer of the Panama Canal. I'm sorry, less self-inflicted tragedy?
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Nov 23, 2014 19:51
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Well, you know, a college football player who skips Senior Year and then goes undrafted is SOL, and may or may not be able to finish his degree without the scholarship money, but if you try to Lincoln it up and fail, you can probably still finish law school.
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Nov 23, 2014 19:53
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Nameless_Steve posted:Also I'm confused, who is the beautiful man in that picture? She's Orly Taitz. rear end in a top hat
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Nov 23, 2014 23:58
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The Warszawa posted:I'm sorry, less self-inflicted tragedy? Sure, you're still a lawyer, but without the crippling student loan debt.
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Nov 24, 2014 00:24
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SedanChair posted:Lincolning it up I can't unsee it now. 
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Nov 24, 2014 02:01
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Zwabu posted:Re: Scott Walker - how many U.S. Presidents have not had a college education? I think the lack of degree puts the presidency out of range for him--try to name a president from the last couple decades who doesn't have a) a Harvard/Yale degree and b) a graduate-level degree--but I'm willing to be proven wrong on this front. A Republican candidate, at least, who could paint himself as a self-made man, probably has a slim chance, at least for another decade or two, but it'd be a tough sell. (He also had a pretty terrible GPA when he was there, has lied about how close he was to graduating, and there are local rumors about the reasons for his abrupt departure--some suggest expulsion due to cheating, which doesn't seem to be backed up by a whole lot of facts, but that wouldn't necessarily stop it from becoming a minor political scandal.) But I think the thing that most people from outside Wisconsin don't realize about Scott Walker is that he has negative charisma. The only two things he can project to an audience are sourness and smarm. He makes Romney and Gore look like Brad Pitt and George Clooney. I'm trying to think of the most recent comparison to a candidate who lacked charisma the way Walker does--maybe Bob Dole? Someone who can't charm people is unelectable in this day and age. Scott Walker's overall job performance by his own metrics--job creation, economic growth, etc.--has not been great, either, and while his in-state opponents didn't have the money to call him out on his bullshit and take him to task for that on any wide scale, a national candidate surely would. I think the only real "pro" he has as a candidate is the fact that he'll certainly have lots and lots of money behind him . . .
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Nov 24, 2014 02:08
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aslan posted:I think the lack of degree puts the presidency out of range for him--try to name a president from the last couple decades who doesn't have a) a Harvard/Yale degree and b) a graduate-level degree--but I'm willing to be proven wrong on this front. A Republican candidate, at least, who could paint himself as a self-made man, probably has a slim chance, at least for another decade or two, but it'd be a tough sell. (He also had a pretty terrible GPA when he was there, has lied about how close he was to graduating, and there are local rumors about the reasons for his abrupt departure--some suggest expulsion due to cheating, which doesn't seem to be backed up by a whole lot of facts, but that wouldn't necessarily stop it from becoming a minor political scandal.) But I think the thing that most people from outside Wisconsin don't realize about Scott Walker is that he has negative charisma. The only two things he can project to an audience are sourness and smarm. He makes Romney and Gore look like Brad Pitt and George Clooney. I'm trying to think of the most recent comparison to a candidate who lacked charisma the way Walker does--maybe Bob Dole? Someone who can't charm people is unelectable in this day and age. Carter and Reagan didn't go to Ivy League schools, also neither of them had a graduate education.
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Nov 24, 2014 02:11
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And both of them were elected well over "a couple decades ago."
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Nov 24, 2014 02:16
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The last President without a college degree was Harry Truman.
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Nov 24, 2014 02:17
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aslan posted:And both of them were elected well over "a couple decades ago." Well, if you exclude Reagan you have a sample size of 4. But that's ignoring that Carter was a specific reaction against Washington insiders and Reagan was in that same vein (albeit from the other side).
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Nov 24, 2014 02:20
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aslan posted:I'm trying to think of the most recent comparison to a candidate who lacked charisma the way Walker does--maybe Bob Dole? Someone who can't charm people is unelectable in this day and age. I keep coming back to this thought. For all the discussion of politics and demographics, and for all that they certainly affect things, when was the last time the general election wasn't won by the more charming person?
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Nov 24, 2014 02:20
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Killer robot posted:I keep coming back to this thought. For all the discussion of politics and demographics, and for all that they certainly affect things, when was the last time the general election wasn't won by the more charming person? I'd argue Nixon/Humphrey, and I'd also argue that Nixon was well aware of his lack of charisma and the impact it could have on the election (thanks to his earlier election with JFK), and that's the reason he refused to appear on TV with him. But that obviously is an impossibility in this day and age. Edit: Basically I'm saying that in the internet era, the more charismatic candidate will always win. Always. aslan fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 02:24
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aslan posted:I'd argue Nixon/Humphrey, and I'd also argue that Nixon was well aware of his lack of charisma and the impact it could have on the election (thanks to his earlier election with JFK), and that's the reason he refused to appear on TV with him. But that obviously is an impossibility in this day and age. So the GOP has 2016 in the bag as long as they nominate someone with more charisma than Hillary.
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Nov 24, 2014 02:37
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Well, yes, with the caveat that the winner has to be someone who can make it through the Republican primaries in addition to having more charisma than Hillary, which presents them with a slim list of options.
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Nov 24, 2014 02:42
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Killer robot posted:I keep coming back to this thought. For all the discussion of politics and demographics, and for all that they certainly affect things, when was the last time the general election wasn't won by the more charming person? Bush and Dukakis.
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Nov 24, 2014 02:48
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Dr. Tough posted:Carter and Reagan didn't go to Ivy League schools, also neither of them had a graduate education. Yeah but Carter went to the U.S. Naval Academy. While it's not quite regarded as on the same tier as an Ivy League school academically, it's fairly prestigious and definitely regarded as on the upper tier of U.S. colleges.
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Nov 24, 2014 03:03
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aslan posted:And both of them were elected well over "a couple decades ago." "A couple decades" is like three people, that's not exactly a large sample size
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Nov 24, 2014 03:31
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aslan posted:Well, yes, with the caveat that the winner has to be someone who can make it through the Republican primaries in addition to having more charisma than Hillary, which presents them with a slim list of options. I have no idea who will actually get the GOP nomination in 2016 but Hillary is a pretty charismatic candidate as long as you don't compare her to her husband or the guy she lost to (the most charismatic candidate since JFK).
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Nov 24, 2014 03:58
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Jeb Bush was railing against teachers' unions again. He's primarily responsible for our awful education system here in FL (which he overhauled as governor). http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/fl-jeb-bush-education-flap-2016-20141121-story.html
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Nov 24, 2014 05:09
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FlamingLiberal posted:Jeb Bush was railing against teachers' unions again. He's primarily responsible for our awful education system here in FL (which he overhauled as governor). It always makes me both chuckle and cringe when a politician in a RTW state with no unionization history tries going after POWERFUL UNIONS. Politicians in NC run against teacher unions...despite their being effectively banned. Good luck convincing Iowa evangelicals to buy in on CommonCore.
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Nov 24, 2014 05:24
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It's no different than trying to defund ACORN after they had already shut down. No one who would vote for those people is going to bother to fact-check.
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Nov 24, 2014 05:35
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Dr. Tough posted:"A couple decades" is like three people, that's not exactly a large sample size Well, conveniently, that same couple of decades covers a generation's worth of cultural change where a college degree went from "a nice but not strictly necessary thing to have" to "something which is essentially necessary to acquire a middle-class job." If the fact that Obama, Bush 43 and Clinton all fit this profile doesn't sway you, let's just pay attention to the fact that Dukakis, Kerry, and Romney did, too, and Gore and Bush 41 fit at least half. The importance of president's college education has, not surprisingly, changed since '48--it's waxed just as the role of military service has waned. Given that the only president without a college degree that we've elected in the last hundred years was one who'd already served as president for three years before his election . . . I don't think we're going too far out on a limb to say that any candidate without a college degree is at a significant disadvantage. aslan fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 06:41
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aslan posted:
Truman only got in because he was already promoted to President when FDR died. He had the recognition of finishing the biggest war on his side going into 1948. Perhaps people simply don't care about a vice-president's education, they're pretty much always a minor concern in an election. And he already got his bona fides proven during a partial term as President anyway.
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Nov 24, 2014 07:02
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I was very interested in the over-representation of Ivy's in politics, but I couldn't find an existing database (excel or something. Going through all the senate elections and presidential elections one-by-one is a little too much work right now.
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Nov 24, 2014 07:36
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I'm pretty sure Ivies are heavily over-represented in the legal profession itself, and seeing how much politics draws on lawyers it's not much of a surprise it's also that way in politics
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Nov 24, 2014 07:45
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Don't forget that Rick "college is for snobs like Barack Obama" Santorum has an MBA and a JD.
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Nov 24, 2014 07:58
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aslan posted:Well, conveniently, that same couple of decades covers a generation's worth of cultural change where a college degree went from "a nice but not strictly necessary thing to have" to "something which is essentially necessary to acquire a middle-class job." If the fact that Obama, Bush 43 and Clinton all fit this profile doesn't sway you, let's just pay attention to the fact that Dukakis, Kerry, and Romney did, too, and Gore and Bush 41 fit at least half. That still leaves Bob Dole as half credit and John McCain as an exception in terms of candidates in this period. McCain doesn't have a graduate degree unless NVA prison camps have gotten some sort of accreditation at some point and he went to the Naval Academy. Dole didn't go to an Ivy, but he did eventually get a law degree.
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Nov 24, 2014 08:46
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While it's certainly true that the several most recent presidents had Ivy League educations, I highly doubt that if you were to go out on the street and ask people "what kind of education should a president have?" the answer would be "Ivy League law school"
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Nov 24, 2014 14:14
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I think Ted Cruz is the only potential Republican Presidential candidate who went to an Ivy, unless I'm missing someone.
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Nov 24, 2014 15:27
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Joementum posted:I think Ted Cruz is the only potential Republican Presidential candidate who went to an Ivy, unless I'm missing someone. Ben Carson went to Yale. 
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Nov 24, 2014 15:52
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You forgot someone.
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Nov 24, 2014 15:53
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Joementum posted:I think Ted Cruz is the only potential Republican Presidential candidate who went to an Ivy, unless I'm missing someone. Where did Jeb go then?
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Nov 24, 2014 16:40
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I have a hard time believing that a college education means much to voters considering how anti-intellectual we are as a society. Even if it does turn off some voters, I would imagine that there's an equally-sized bloc of voters who would look at a lack of college education as a positive, especially since national candidates are going to have 'impressive' CVs regardless of whether or where they went to school.
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Nov 24, 2014 16:42
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Fried Chicken posted:Where did Jeb go then? His highest degree is a BA in Latin American Studies from UT Austin.
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Nov 24, 2014 16:44
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Fried Chicken posted:Where did Jeb go then? Jeb's a University of Texas grad
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Nov 24, 2014 16:44
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