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I tend to predominately use the mouse for movemment in roguelikes. This explains why most of the roguelikes I can tolerate are pretty new.  (I can come up with excellent justification for this as well; Most roguelikes that allow mouse movement have danger warnings similar to their auto-exploration systems, that prevent you from mashing into trouble while still allowing fast movement. But I also know I started playing Roguelikes when my right hand was in a brace and was near-unusuable, and I needed something to play almost entirely one-handed. The important thing is, as always, what you're used to.)
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Nov 23, 2014 21:06
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SageAcrin posted:I tend to predominately use the mouse for movemment in roguelikes. They encourage lazy movement, DoomRL is especially bad for this. You shouldn't stop when you see an enemy, you should stop when you hear one.
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Nov 24, 2014 00:29
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I think crawl does a good job with this, since any travel action will be interrupted by visible monsters or any other noteworthy event. This includes shift+move, which is for moving down corridors, across rooms, etc.
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Nov 24, 2014 01:26
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It seems like the more fundamental problem is that there's a lot of "empty" movement in a lot of Roguelikes, which necessitates all these various shortcuts for skipping around until something important happens. Stuff like NetHack and Crawl are especially bad about it since they're both loaded with backtracking. Crawl has features to automate it, but that's really just putting a bandaid over the problem. What if there were more Roguelikes that took after say, Dungeon Sprint, in terms of density of encounters? I realize sprint is a hand-built thing, but you could probably set up an algorithm to generate dungeons along those lines. I guess the Ziggurats are basically that. I don't know - do you think it would be possible to have a really densely packed dungeon while still retaining the fundamental exploration aspect of Roguelikes?
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Nov 24, 2014 05:30
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This is getting into "what is a roguelike" territory, but I don't consider exploration to be fundamental to roguelikes except insofar as you don't know what the terrain will be until you see it. If you consider, say, Hoplite to be a roguelike, then absolutely you can compose a roguelike out of a series of dense encounters. It just may not much resemble what a "traditional" roguelike looks like. (Re: autoexplore, it would be utterly lethal in Angband, which requires you to take active, not-realistically-automatable steps to ensure you aren't walking into an ambush)
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Nov 24, 2014 05:44
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You could just section off rooms and make each room an encounter, (like BoI and Hoplite.)
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Nov 24, 2014 05:47
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:(Re: autoexplore, it would be utterly lethal in Angband, which requires you to take active, not-realistically-automatable steps to ensure you aren't walking into an ambush)
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Nov 24, 2014 05:48
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Turtlicious posted:You could just section off rooms and make each room an encounter, (like BoI and Hoplite.) See the thing about this is that it becomes purely combat oriented. There's nothing wrong with a minimalist design like Hoplite which essentially reduces Roguelikes to a puzzle game, but I'm thinking more along the lines of taking a game like Crawl and cutting out all the boring wandering about without actually reducing the scope of the experience.
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Nov 24, 2014 05:57
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It's actually a really interesting design tension; at first it seems like you really want to compress the experience down, but the more you do that, the more it feels like a puzzle game and the feeling of exploration evaporates. If you want to generate "that exploration feel", it's actually very important to have areas where nothing is happening interspersed with more dense encounters, so you get a "bling" (technical design term) when you get to an interesting area. It's a real challenge to minimize downtime while still retaining the feel of exploration.
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Nov 24, 2014 06:01
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The Cheshire Cat posted:cutting out all the boring wandering about without actually reducing the scope of the experience. You could imagine a deck of cards, where each card is an encounter when flipped up, with its own layout, monsters, and treasure. Here's a 10x10 room with pillars and orcs, now here's a twisty series of hallways with slimes and an invisible sewermage. That's FTL, and in a lot of ways that's also what you strip a game down to when you add in auto explore.
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Nov 24, 2014 06:03
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Zereth posted:Aren't levels in Angband also huge? Sounds like it's kind of a chore to play. No kidding. Unormal posted:It's actually a really interesting design tension; at first it seems like you really want to compress the experience down, but the more you do that, the more it feels like a puzzle game and the feeling of exploration evaporates. Exploration is overrated. I'd rather have a game that gets more interesting as you develop mastery and familiarity, rather than less. (Which is also why difficulty levels, implemented as such, are a welcome addition to many of the more recent generation of roguelikes.) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 06:07
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Zereth posted:Aren't levels in Angband also huge? Sounds like it's kind of a chore to play. Well, to each their own, really. The levels are certainly larger than I've seen in any other roguelike, but you are by no means expected to check out every cranny of every level since (again, unlike practically every other roguelike) there's an infinite amount of potential content available in every game -- the levels regenerate each time you visit them. If you play Angband with a completionist "I'm going to kill everything on every level" attitude then you're just signing up for tedium, like the people who insist on identifying every blue item they get in Diablo II. But yeah, I won't argue that Angband isn't an acquired taste, because it pretty clearly is. It does have an enduring community and active development, though, so it's kind of weird that it's mentioned so rarely in general roguelike discussion while NetHack (which hasn't seen a new release in over a decade) gets mentioned all the time.
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Nov 24, 2014 06:14
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madjackmcmad posted:You could imagine a deck of cards, where each card is an encounter when flipped up, with its own layout, monsters, and treasure. Here's a 10x10 room with pillars and orcs, now here's a twisty series of hallways with slimes and an invisible sewermage. That's FTL, and in a lot of ways that's also what you strip a game down to when you add in auto explore. Isn't that basically how Crawl generates its maps? Tons and tons of setpiece areas connected by random twisty hallways and a few big empty nothing areas? It's tricky to really make any kind of comparison between a game with a randomly generated layout like Roguelikes and more traditionally designed RPGs, because one of the natural elements that arises from making your levels random is open-endedness. Dark Souls has a very Roguelike-y feel, but the individual areas are actually pretty linear - all the branching is between different sections of the game - more akin to Crawl's dungeon branches than any individual level. With a linear design comes a much tighter focus because you have a lot more control over the pacing of the high and low energy of combat vs. exploration. You could make a Roguelike that generated a more linear dungeon, but that raises the question of why make the layout random at all if it's essentially just going to be a straight line? I guess what you could kind of do is have the game generate a level by creating "safe" and "danger" areas, with the safe areas running in a line around the danger areas, but no indication which is which. So you could theoretically go from the level entrance to exit without hitting a single dangerous encounter, but you'd never quite be sure whether the next door you open will be a safe or dangerous one. So you'd have a moderation between combat and exploration while still keeping the overall wandering to a minimum (unless the player happens to get lucky and happens to follow the safe path perfectly).
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Nov 24, 2014 06:18
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Well, Sil gets a lot of love here, if not Angband proper. Angband was my first roguelike and I'll always love it for that but design wise it is just a bit of a mess. Fundamentally the food and light clocks just don't matter and it makes the whole game a weird, grindy experience. EDIT: Although as far as Angband vs. Nethack is concerned it's not like Nethack isn't even more of a mess. But I don't see it mentioned here that often either.
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Nov 24, 2014 06:19
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:(Re: autoexplore, it would be utterly lethal in Angband, which requires you to take active, not-realistically-automatable steps to ensure you aren't walking into an ambush) I'm no expert on that family (apart from having spent a fair amount of time with sil) but i was under the impression that there's a bot that can pretty consistently win angband.
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Nov 24, 2014 07:07
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Unormal posted:Anyone who wants to test out the controller support in Sproggiwood can put the password "sproggiwooddebug" into the Betas tab in Steam and use the "debug" branch. It's missing quite a bit of polish, but it should all be functional. The only screen that's not completely able to be controller-driven at this point is the Decorate mode (which is under more general construction). For me the control rebinding both doesn't seem to work right and doesn't seem to have a reset to default setting. I tried to change several things and just ended up with Mouse0 bound instead. Also, I can't seem to press the home button or xbox button (depending on whether I use my PS3 or 360 pads) to do anything, and the menu doesn't seem to be bound in dungeons.
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Nov 24, 2014 07:13
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andrew smash posted:I'm no expert on that family (apart from having spent a fair amount of time with sil) but i was under the impression that there's a bot that can pretty consistently win angband. There's some talk about the bot at around 45:00 in this episode of Roguelike Radio. Basically, it works by having infinite patience and scumming for millions of turns, since you can generate new levels infinitely.
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Nov 24, 2014 07:25
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Zereth posted:Aren't levels in Angband also huge? Sounds like it's kind of a chore to play. If you're not playing Angband with 'always generate small / always generate interesting levels' turned on you're not playing it the fun way at all.
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Nov 24, 2014 10:09
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Nintendo Kid posted:For me the control rebinding both doesn't seem to work right and doesn't seem to have a reset to default setting. I tried to change several things and just ended up with Mouse0 bound instead. So if you navigate to a key rebind button and hit a controller button, do you get the popup that asks you to hit a key for that particular command? And if you click something on the controller it just does nothing? I borked the reset to defaults in that build, I'll clean it up and post a new one. Thanks for trying my horrifyingly broken code! 
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Nov 24, 2014 17:18
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Pladdicus posted:They encourage lazy movement, DoomRL is especially bad for this. You shouldn't stop when you see an enemy, you should stop when you hear one. Nah, DoomRL you want to be stationary when you're listening for people, not moving. Moving around to listen is a way to die. Similarly, mouse moving does not cut off your ears, and once you learn to parse the noises at that speed, it works just as well. Just don't mouse move into large open areas like a doofus. Way I see it, doing that kind of thing with a mouse is no different from the people that hold down a directional button. You know you shouldn't do it, you do it anyways because it's faster. Unlike that, though, you can actually mouse move long distances in cleared out areas and not have normally-terrible enemies slaughter you. So it's an improvement in that regard. (I kind of have an N! clear here, getting told that my methodology is "lazy" amuses me.) And yeah, Dungeon Crawl's the Roguelike I started with, the mouse move is pretty good. SageAcrin fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 17:37
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DoomRL kind of makes me want to find a good position and then stand around for thousands of turns waiting for monsters to wander into range at max LOS. I don't think food would be a great addition but that's pretty degenerate.
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Nov 24, 2014 17:45
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I just play DoomRL with the sound off and bring the pain to the enemies rather than waiting for them to come to me.  This may be why I don't have any wins above HNTR.
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Nov 24, 2014 17:47
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I kinda agree, it's a problem with DoomRL design that waiting in place is so good. In fairness, it's a problem with many Roguelikes-food rarely is a good solution in practice-but it feels weirder with DoomRL. It's not really... bad, but Doom as a cover shooter is just odd. Lord knows I don't have any idea how to fix it though. You'd have to overhaul enemy design and higher difficulties from the ground up. Maybe that's why Kornell ditched it and started making a new game. Also you can totally win UV by bringing the pain, don't give up. Make lots and lots of P/Powered Red Armor, take a ton of TaN, and tank your FPS. (I'm not kidding, this still works on UV. You just have to know what situations to run from/skip/take at a safer spot.)
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Nov 24, 2014 17:48
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Unormal posted:So if you navigate to a key rebind button and hit a controller button, do you get the popup that asks you to hit a key for that particular command? And if you click something on the controller it just does nothing? Well that's the thing. The popup comes up, it registers as Mouse0.... and then the pop up stays there, even if I exit out of the config menu and come back in (that is, it stays opened in the config menu, but going out to normal menus or gameplay it disappears.). The only way to get it to stop showing up is to quit out entirely and restart the game.
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Nov 24, 2014 18:22
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Nintendo Kid posted:Well that's the thing. The popup comes up, it registers as Mouse0.... and then the pop up stays there, even if I exit out of the config menu and come back in (that is, it stays opened in the config menu, but going out to normal menus or gameplay it disappears.). The only way to get it to stop showing up is to quit out entirely and restart the game. If you could send a log to unormal at gmail.com that'd be awesome.
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Nov 24, 2014 18:37
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Unormal posted:If you could send a log to unormal at gmail.com that'd be awesome. How do I do that in the current version?
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Nov 24, 2014 20:44
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Nintendo Kid posted:How do I do that in the current version? http://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/LogFiles.html e: Actually I might have figured out the issue, I'll post a new build in a few minutes. Will also fix calibrate and reset-to-default. Unormal fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 23:07
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I want more Qud, please. I want to be an armored-gopher man with rayguns and ice grenades and drink my own weight in several drams of water. QUD is best land.
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Nov 25, 2014 15:03
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Crypt of the Necrodancer is only $9 on Steam today. http://store.steampowered.com/app/247080/
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Nov 26, 2014 20:26
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Farquar posted:Crypt of the Necrodancer is only $9 on Steam today.  Sproggiwood's on sale too! http://store.steampowered.com/app/311720/
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Nov 26, 2014 22:48
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LotsBread posted:I want more Qud, please. I want to be an armored-gopher man with rayguns and ice grenades and drink my own weight in several drams of water. Seconded. I want to go deep into the politics of the plants and encounter more horrible things in the salt flats. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Exploration is overrated. I'd rather have a game that gets more interesting as you develop mastery and familiarity, rather than less. It is a matter of taste, but I really disagree. Half of the entertainment of Stone Soup for me was finding new vaults or stumbling across the castle complete with moat that held a regiment of gnolls. I love it in QUD when I stumbled across the starapple farmers or found a snapjaw camp with a Legendary snapjaw and small signs of industrialization of their society like a well defended forge. Edit: The other half of QUD I really enjoy is the crafting system. Tracking down every recipe for 100% completion is more fun to me than finishing the story at the moment. (Also I figure if I do that, I will be able to finish the ending safely). Helical Nightmares fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 02:04
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I bought Sproggi just so there would be money for CoQ
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Nov 27, 2014 04:23
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I'm thinking more along the lines of taking a game like Crawl and cutting out all the boring wandering about without actually reducing the scope of the experience. Judging by its previews the upcoming game Darkest Dungeon will be attempting this.
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Nov 27, 2014 04:48
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Turtlicious posted:I bought Sproggi just so there would be money for CoQ Try Sproggi!... (Can't wait to get CoQ on Steam though )
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Nov 27, 2014 04:48
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Unormal posted:Try Sproggi!... (Can't wait to get CoQ on Steam though What are you trying to say?
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Nov 27, 2014 04:56
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Harminoff posted:What are you trying to say? Well, can't promise anything at this point, but the endgame of CoQ-in-Unity is clearly CoQ-on-Steam. Still a long way to go to get there, though.
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Nov 27, 2014 05:19
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there's a critical lack of roguelikes out there where you can play as a mutant so a polished-up copy of caves of qud getting on steam would be amazing and would draw in a fair chunk of money.
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Nov 27, 2014 06:18
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Unormal posted:Well, can't promise anything at this point, but the endgame of CoQ-in-Unity is clearly CoQ-on-Steam. Still a long way to go to get there, though. Agent Kool-Aid posted:there's a critical lack of roguelikes out there where you can play as a mutant so a polished-up copy of caves of qud getting on steam would be amazing and would draw in a fair chunk of money.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:53
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Desideratus posted:Unironically, if you put CoQ on Steam I will buy 10 copies just to pass spares out to friends; It's my favorite roguelike to date. That's quite a promise!
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Nov 27, 2014 18:16
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i really want to pull off a build in nuclear throne where you have melting with throne butt, impact wrists, boiling veins, and the crown of blood then just fire a grenade into every now-crowded new area i encounter and start hammering m2 
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Nov 28, 2014 09:30
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