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I think part of it is also how rapidly a person's understanding deteriorated after they started teaching. For the period of 1985-2005, the programming and art tech moved so fast that if you left the industry to teach you would have been completely out of date after a very short amount of time. It's only recently that things have started to slow down enough that what you're staying is probably still applicable a few years later.
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Nov 24, 2014 16:43
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theflyingorc posted:I think part of it is also how rapidly a person's understanding deteriorated after they started teaching. For the period of 1985-2005, the programming and art tech moved so fast that if you left the industry to teach you would have been completely out of date after a very short amount of time. It's only recently that things have started to slow down enough that what you're staying is probably still applicable a few years later. I spent 2 years teaching in Game Design at Full Sail after 5 years programming at EA, and while I don't really feel as if my skills deteriorated, they didn't grow as fast as they would have if I had stayed in development. Even the time I spent working on contracts and contributing to an open-source HTML5 game engine didn't help as much as I would have hoped. Having powerful software engineers around to give you feedback really aids in learning and keeping up to date on things. Teaching will be fun to go back to after I retire from being a software engineer, though.
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Nov 24, 2014 18:22
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N0data posted:If it makes any difference, I can say with certainty, that every professor I've had thus far at Full Sail, that teaches a games related class (programming in my case), has had real world games industry experience, and most have also had government simulation experience. And my prior sim experience has helped, as you say, as has spending an awful lot of time studying materials from actual game devs and talking to actual game devs. It may not be as good as working a game dev job but so far I've had a very positive response from my coworkers and professional game devs, so maybe it's possible to get a lot of the knowledge anyway if you try hard enough and have the right resources.
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Nov 25, 2014 00:33
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Brackhar posted:Without intending to offend, this is an example of one of the major critiques I've heard repeated in the industry: the individuals teaching in these game degree programs have not commonly worked in the industry. There already tends to be a bit of a stigma against academics in a lot of the circles I've walked, so this particular critique resonates really strongly with a lot of people I've met. Addressing that I think would go a long way to improving the credibility of these programs. I work in the theatre/entertainment industry and it is more or less the same. Of one of you professors isn't telling you stories about when he was a roadie for Motley Crue then you aren't getting the most practical education. At least these kids can get jobs at smaller regional and educational theaters who are usually willing to hire with only edu experience.
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Nov 25, 2014 00:35
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Northeastern's game program started with a good amount of in-industry experience, but since this is a research school in the past few years the faculty's been gearing much more towards doctorate-level academics. The positive, though, is that there's still a big focus on building useful skills and finding jobs because that's Northeastern's entire shtick. I guess it works, too, because I just accepted a co-op at Harmonix!
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Nov 25, 2014 01:09
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Shame the industry is completely sucking rear end in the north east though. Layoffs at Turbine/WB, Harmonix, and the shutdown of Irrational. Not the greatest time to be a budding student in that area, and yeah I know there are indies around but I feel like 95% of people out of school should get an established studio job to actually know what it's like to work on games at a medium/large scale. I've seen so many indies in countless areas that are more focused on keeping their twitter updated than actually developing games and it makes me nauseous, it's not strictly on the east coast but I certainly noticed it there as well.
ceebee fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Nov 25, 2014 |
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Nov 25, 2014 01:48
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Montreal is the Portland of video games.
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Nov 25, 2014 04:25
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Welp. Flew out to the studio with my wife to check out the city and do the in-person interviews. Spent a full day and a half looking around town, which was as charming as I could have imagined. Amazing place. Interview went really well, I was honest, and remained confident in my ability to do the job. Now begins the wait and self-analysis. You know the period, where you go over every word you said, checking to make sure you didn't say something absurd.
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Nov 25, 2014 04:29
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Did you zip your fly that day? I mean there isn't any reason why you wouldn't, but did you check?
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Nov 25, 2014 04:40
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Hazed_blue posted:Welp. Flew out to the studio with my wife to check out the city and do the in-person interviews. Spent a full day and a half looking around town, which was as charming as I could have imagined. Amazing place. Interview went really well, I was honest, and remained confident in my ability to do the job. You going to be lead again? Curious where you're headed. But good luck man! I'm glad we have a couple character guys here posting their experiences/journeys 
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Nov 25, 2014 07:05
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ceebee posted:I've seen so many indies in countless areas that are more focused on keeping their twitter updated than actually developing games and it makes me nauseous, it's not strictly on the east coast but I certainly noticed it there as well. That said, I very much agree that doing a stint at a large studio before trying the indie thing is a really, really good idea.
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Nov 25, 2014 07:23
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Working at a small studio made me realize how grateful I am that I got to be a newbie in a studio where I was one out of 200 instead of one out of 6.
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Nov 25, 2014 07:35
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I guess I was a bit aggressive with my outlook on it, and I certainly am not trying to include all indie developers. But from what I observed in the few months (I admit, pretty short) stint I did attempting to get involved with indie developers, I encountered a lot of idea people and social media people rather than the people willing to sit down and bust rear end on some code or art. There are definitely exceptions, but it seemed like a large majority of indie developers seemed this way. Although that could also be my skewed perspective on what makes a quality game after getting involved with AAA development. I think personally I just dislike the current trend going on where controversy and social media contribute to the publicity of a game rather than it actually being a quality, cool, creative, fun, education, etc kind of game. I just wish all that publicity and social media was put towards the indies that put in solid effort to produce awesome stuff. Shalinor's stuff included *rear end kiss brown nose* and some of my other favorites like the things Chucklefish produces and now publishes. I guess that's why I think experience in larger dev environments would be beneficial to a lot of indie devs so they have a sense of quality and effort that it takes to get stuff made. At the same time I think it's also healthy for AAA devs to get involved into a smaller team based development to flex those learning skills and maybe pick up an extra skillset/hobby along the way.
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Nov 25, 2014 07:51
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Also large studios should totally hold game jams more.
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Nov 25, 2014 07:57
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ceebee posted:Also large studios should totally hold game jams more. Not when there are deadlines to be met, publishers to appease and crunch to avoid. Honestly, any company that has the idle time and resources won't be in business for long. Sadly, this is the reality of it. I've lead large and small teams and there is almost never any spare time for this. I tried to be supportive for training, team building and morale boosting days and build some slack time into our teams' schedules....but guess what was the first thing that got eaten when the project started to slip? Also - Most people, myself included, do NOT want to spend another god drat minute in the office longer than is required to do the job. This includes after hours LANs, board games or any off-hours activities. So imagine trying to arrange a game jam or any other "fun" thing and getting people to participate. This 100% true for a team of 8 or 80. Slayerjerman fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Nov 25, 2014 |
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Nov 25, 2014 08:12
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Slayerjerman posted:Not when there are deadlines to be met, publishers to appease and crunch to avoid. Honestly, any company that has the idle time and resources won't be in business for long. Sadly, this is the reality of it. I've lead large and small teams and there is almost never any spare time for this. I tried to be supportive for training, team building and morale boosting days and build some slack time into our teams' schedules....but guess what was the first thing that got eaten when the project started to slip? Remind me never to work under you, sheesh.
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Nov 25, 2014 08:53
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mutata posted:Remind me never to work under you, sheesh. I'll take whichever middle-point that has fun company activities, but not participating doesn't lead to a firing for not fitting company culture.
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Nov 25, 2014 08:55
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ceebee posted:You going to be lead again? Curious where you're headed. But good luck man! I'm glad we have a couple character guys here posting their experiences/journeys My fly was up. I think my fly was up.
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Nov 25, 2014 10:42
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mutata posted:Remind me never to work under you, sheesh. Give em a break, what are they going to to do? Project manage? I think jams in between larger projects are taking off a bit, I know of a few places doing them since the Double Fine KS, and larger multi project places that run them a couple of times a year to mix up the teams and generate ideas. Pretty sure much of Bossa's output is from jams and fever dreams.
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Nov 25, 2014 11:53
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Ahh, I remember having a team 'Creative Day' once a month. Take a whole day and do whatever you like, get a group together to make game pitches(if it's good, we might make it!), do little personal projects, show off what you've been doing at the end of the day. Good times. That all ended when the department was repurposed from 'making lots of fun small-team slightly experimental games that basically cover the development budget' to 'making a browser-based free-to-play MMO strategy game' because 'covers our budget' wasn't cutting it anymore, but there you go really. (The freemium strategy game crashed and burned in beta after two painful years of development and a lot of people got laid off. Games industry!) floofyscorp fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Nov 25, 2014 |
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Nov 25, 2014 12:26
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Slayerjerman posted:Not when there are deadlines to be met, publishers to appease and crunch to avoid. Honestly, any company that has the idle time and resources won't be in business for long. Sadly, this is the reality of it. I've lead large and small teams and there is almost never any spare time for this. I tried to be supportive for training, team building and morale boosting days and build some slack time into our teams' schedules....but guess what was the first thing that got eaten when the project started to slip? It's called a weekend, what is wrong with you
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Nov 25, 2014 15:44
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theflyingorc posted:It's called a weekend, what is wrong with you What's a weekend?
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Nov 25, 2014 16:09
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floofyscorp posted:Ahh, I remember having a team 'Creative Day' once a month. Take a whole day and do whatever you like, get a group together to make game pitches(if it's good, we might make it!), do little personal projects, show off what you've been doing at the end of the day. Good times. It wasn't too bad. It's not like we then wasted two years on another project before changing the engine twice and grinding a good idea into the ground? No wait, the other thing. I am having flashbacks to the terrible old days now.
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Nov 25, 2014 16:21
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Slayerjerman posted:Not when there are deadlines to be met, publishers to appease and crunch to avoid. Honestly, any company that has the idle time and resources won't be in business for long. Sadly, this is the reality of it. I've lead large and small teams and there is almost never any spare time for this. I tried to be supportive for training, team building and morale boosting days and build some slack time into our teams' schedules....but guess what was the first thing that got eaten when the project started to slip? Uhh plenty of companies survive having things like days set aside for activities that aren't business related. Maybe pay the CEO less?
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Nov 25, 2014 16:58
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:What's a weekend? It's that thing artists have that you don't.
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Nov 25, 2014 17:01
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Sion posted:It's that thing artists have that you don't. Depends on the artists. The real people to scorn are the administrative staff and QA.
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Nov 25, 2014 17:03
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theflyingorc posted:Depends on the artists. The real people to scorn are the administrative staff and QA. QA have always crunched with dev when crunching at the studios I've worked at. I worked one place where HR worked three days out of the week, but it was a smallish studio.
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Nov 25, 2014 17:05
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down with slavery posted:Uhh plenty of companies survive having things like days set aside for activities that aren't business related. Maybe pay the CEO less? Hahahahahaha
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Nov 25, 2014 17:06
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:QA have always crunched with dev when crunching at the studios I've worked at. 1. When I was a lowly scripter, the backend team had to crunch, 55 hour weeks, WITHOUT A GIVEN END DATE. Seriously, nobody is going to put up with that nonsense if they have no idea when it ends. Luckily, my department was not involved. (it went on for like 3 months, BTW) 2. I worked on a licensed Facebook game where we had promised a certain release date right before our investors took everything hostage(this was fully justified, FYI) and we laid off about 80% of the company. This meant a 4-month project had about 2 months where nobody worked on it. To make up time, I had to come into work every single day for 26 days in a row. These days crossed over both my birthday and my anniversary. The game was live for 6 weeks before it was pulled because our FTP model made absolutely no sense.
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Nov 25, 2014 17:19
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I'm in a crunch right now that's both good and bad compared to other crunches I've done. Pro: Overtime pay, not a ton, but it's there Sundays off! Only 55-60 hours/week Con: Been going on forever, will go on till ship gently caress this poo poo
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Nov 25, 2014 17:22
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ya'll(programmers, the rest of u are prolly hosed) should really just get jobs doing technical stuff in different fields and actually make money and have a reasonable life/work balance you could start your own game company in five years comfortably with today's wages for programmers if someone asked me to work 60 hours a week as a salaried employee I would literally laugh in their face
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Nov 25, 2014 17:24
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down with slavery posted:if someone asked me to work 60 hours a week as a salaried employee I would literally laugh in their face
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Nov 25, 2014 17:28
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Sion posted:It's that thing artists have that you don't. Unless it's portfolio update/tools/software training time. At which point, an artist is pretty much working a second job just to stay relevant.
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Nov 25, 2014 17:29
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theflyingorc posted:It was once, it needed to be done to ship on time, and unlike my current not-in-industry job, I loved my job and looked forward to going into work every day. you loved working 26 days in a row? also im sorry you don't like your current job but there are plenty of great places to work outside of the games industry (and from what I can tell, effectively zero inside the games industry outside of a few select companies like valve)
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Nov 25, 2014 17:30
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And I'm just sitting here paying for the privilege to work 80-hour weeks for no pay. ... 
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Nov 25, 2014 17:34
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down with slavery posted:you loved working 26 days in a row? After we ship this project I can basically get an interview with god, so I'm ok with it. This time.
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Nov 25, 2014 17:35
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down with slavery posted:you loved working 26 days in a row? quote:also im sorry you don't like your current job but there are plenty of great places to work outside of the games industry (and from what I can tell, effectively zero inside the games industry outside of a few select companies like valve)
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Nov 25, 2014 17:44
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theflyingorc posted:Nope, didn't like that part at all, but I understood it and accepted it because it was basically a trap our former CEO laid for our new CEO. Yeah I dunno if I'd be able to "accept" that I have to work a month straight because two executives are feuding. That just sounds like a hellhole. quote:I also want to work in a creative industry in some capacity. The place I'm currently interviewing seems pretty cool? There's plenty of room for creativity out there. You could be making $150k as a talented programmer at pretty much any agency and what you get in exchange for not working on "games" (it's still creative to be working on other sorts of marketing stuff, and if you believe in the organization it can be just as rewarding) and then you can take the money you save, retire and open your own studio when you're 35 and never look back if you're really business oriented you can just start your own consultancy and freelance from wherever you want in the world while making stacks of cash. i just feel bad for games programmers
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Nov 25, 2014 17:56
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I've said it before but game developers are mad. In a good way, but I'm not sure if there is another word for people who will put up with the conditions the games industry often requires of people, and still keep coming back to it, if not outright enjoying it. A lot of people do it because it's a calling for them. If they're happy with it then we should all be so lucky.
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Nov 25, 2014 17:59
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I think it's pretty obvious that game programmers aren't in it for the money, they do it because they want to work on games. If you are a programmer who wants to make fat stacks, I heartily agree with your suggestion. But I think for most of the people in the thread... well, we've all heard it before and it didn't convince us then either.
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Nov 25, 2014 17:59
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