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Norwegian Rudo posted:Exactly. I was going to post something similar, but you nailed it. People who didn't see it for themselves really have no idea how huge TP was. I was 6-7 when that show aired, so literally my only contemporary memory of it was the Simpsons joke in the "Who shot Mr. Burns" story ("thiiisss suuuiiittt burnssss better! Burns' suit! Check Burns' suit, god!!!")** I finally watched it a few years ago and the first season was great, but the second was unfocused nonsense redeemed only by the utterly fantastic series finale. It's definitely a tough sell for someone who grew up after its influence was felt, and just never had context for its novelty. That said, Fire Walk with Me is super underappreciated as a movie. (Weirdly, I got into a conversation with a 20-year-old a while ago whose context for prestige TV drama was all post-Sopranos, and they made a similar argument about that show: it's obviously of cultural importance, but its novelty is way less apparent now because so many other things that followed did what it did, and have diluted what was so special about it to a new viewer.) **Whoa. Even that was years later, in 1995, apparently. So I have no actual contemporary memories of it. Though I was probably somehow aware it existed, if only as some thing adults cared about. Xealot fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Nov 25, 2014 |
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Nov 25, 2014 11:54
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:He had an alien in him in The Hidden. No wonder he's crazy. The Hidden is so underrated: Aliens come to Earth to hijack human bodies and play GTA with our planet and it's every bit as awesome as that implies. Though recently I re-watched it and got a chuckle: The opening car chase was shot heavily on my street, but the editing is hilarious if you know the area.. every cut the car teleports to a cross street. Looks totally fine but it's amusing if you know LA. Bruceski posted:Heroes as well. When they changed from the plan of "new people with a new story each season" to keeping the same plot and people you could smell the writers' panic through the TV. Heck, even good TV shows have those moments like Babylon 5 ("you're cancelled" "well, I better shove S5's planned plot into S4, thanks for the heads up" "They loved it, give us another season!" "...crap.") Heroes Season 3 is the most hilarious hate-watching I've ever done and I always bring it up as the worst fall in TV writing ever. Sure Season 2 was boring, but I cut that some slack with the writer's strike changing things. Season 3 wasn't just boring, it was "actively retcon every loving thing it does every fifteen minutes, can't keep facts straight for even an episode." Worse yet, the first 4-5 episodes feel kind of fun - stupid but fun - until you realize every single thing that happens in them is retcon'ed after and has no baring on anything. The only TV I've seen that's more incoherent and sloppy was the 3rd season of American Horror Story. At least unlike Heroes that stuck to it's "reboot every season" so it could actually recover. But yeah. Heroes s3. So many plot holes.. so, so many plot holes. My God: I honestly believe it may have more than any other form of media ever produced, seriously. And I absolutely believe anyone going into TV writing needs to watch it as a cautionary tale. ED: Oh yeah. Lost was still the worst thing to happen to TV. Battlestar Galactica was hurt very badly, often neglecting the great parts of the show for the "big mysterious mystery we have no answer to" bullshit. EVERY show had to have the "big mystery" with conflicting writers and sudden reveals, even when they absolutely did not belong. It's not so much that Lost was the problem as it was everyone copied it, poorly. Xealot posted:That said, Fire Walk with Me is super underappreciated as a movie. I'm one of those people who saw Fire Walk With Me before Twin Peaks (even though I was fully aware of the craze during the first season and backlash during the second with things got strange) and that was.. an experience. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Nov 25, 2014 |
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Nov 25, 2014 12:31
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Woo, irrelevant tv series chat! So, god drat BSG was such a tragedy, it went to poo poo in the second half of season 3 and almost never let go except for a few seconds of brief brilliance here and there and then that terrible series finale. I loved Lost almost all the way through, I know it's a pretty polarizing opinion these days but I felt like it delivered 100% on the character front and moderately satisfied my curiosity for its mysteries. Also, Twin Peaks owns. Welp, cya on dec 2nd!
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Nov 25, 2014 12:55
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I'm still mad about people a few pages back making GBS threads on Dune. Some of the same folks who have defended the writing on this show. That book is amazing, especially for the time before nerds explored every SciFi premise to death. Twin Peaks, too. Saying "it's poo poo but I'll happily watch Agents of Shield!". Brain damage up in here
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Nov 25, 2014 14:35
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Electromax posted:I'm still mad about people a few pages back making GBS threads on Dune. Some of the same folks who have defended the writing on this show. That book is amazing, especially for the time before nerds explored every SciFi premise to death. We are talking more about the movie. The book is loving awesome.
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Nov 25, 2014 20:27
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bobkatt013 posted:We are talking more about the movie. The book is loving awesome. That I'll allow. I'm partial to the SciFi channel miniseries from ~2003 also, although I've not seen it in years. I heard they did a Children of Dune followup as well.
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Nov 25, 2014 21:02
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I loving unironically love the movie too for the record. It's incredible in every way. I actually don't like Twin Peaks season 2 very much, just you cannot deny that show's impact.
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Nov 25, 2014 21:04
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I gave up on BSG like four episodes into season 3 when it was absolutely clear nothing would ever go anywhere, yet I still see people talk about it like it was some great deep show periodically so I assumed I was in the minority.
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Nov 25, 2014 21:10
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The Sharmat posted:I gave up on BSG like four episodes into season 3 when it was absolutely clear nothing would ever go anywhere, yet I still see people talk about it like it was some great deep show periodically so I assumed I was in the minority. The time jump was the final straw for more. I find them to be incredibly lazy, lovely ways of telling a serialized story. I can't think of a single one I've liked.
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Nov 25, 2014 21:12
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The change in quality was really striking too. The miniseries that started it and season 1 were absolutely rock solid. Some of the best scifi television ever. I own them on DVD, but now I can't bring myself to watch them, knowing none of it ever goes anywhere.
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Nov 25, 2014 21:25
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The Sharmat posted:I gave up on BSG like four episodes into season 3 when it was absolutely clear nothing would ever go anywhere, yet I still see people talk about it like it was some great deep show periodically so I assumed I was in the minority. If they'd just pulled the plug on the series when they were standing on the nuclear apocalypse planet, staring blankly out at the blasted, hopeless landscape, I would have been happy.
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Nov 25, 2014 21:31
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I remember eventually getting to the point where I wanted either Cavil (surprised I still remember this name) to kill everyone and win, or for the Centurions to rebel and kill everyone on both sides.
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Nov 25, 2014 21:35
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Honestly, shows like BSG and Lost basically represent the teething troubles of the modern, story arc based shows that we got with the emergence of Netflix and binge watching. Shows that try to appear as if you are experiencing some great narrative, even though that is not actually the case and made up as you go along. Being able to actually go back and rewatch it at any given time and constantly discussing it online makes viewers a lot less forgiving when it comes to inconsistencies and sloppy story telling. I mean, X-Files basically did the same thing and it still has a pretty good reputation, despite the fact that it's underlying narrative never went anywhere and isn't rally internally consistent.
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Nov 25, 2014 21:41
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I think the real problem was that they were serialized stories that didn't have a real endpoint. In the case of Galactica, I'm pretty sure Moore and Eick always knew how they wanted to end the show, but didn't know how many episodes they had to get there, until right before season 4. And the consensus on Lost was always that the show flailed until they agreed on that final three season deal. Nowadays I think show writers have a better sense of where the beginning, middle, and end of their stories are, and thus can make the serialized arc fit better.
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Nov 25, 2014 21:49
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I would be shocked if the writers of BSG had any idea what they wanted to do five episodes ahead of where they were at any given time, much less entire seasons ahead.
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Nov 25, 2014 21:52
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It's pretty well documented that the BSG writers had no idea what they were writing towards, while the Lost writers had a very vague idea. And sure, that sounds damning on both sides, but keep in mind Vince Gilligan wrote Breaking Bad with no idea how it would end, and of course David Chase didn't know how the Sopranos would end. Similarly, most of what I've read suggests Matt Weiner had no particular plans for the end of Mad Men. Game of Thrones is based pretty faithfully on a book series, but even they have gone in different directions with the story and have talked about plans to continue doing so, and from what I understand The Walking Dead has very little in common, storywise, with its source material. Incidentally, JMS of Babylon 5 also had only a vague idea, as revealed in his books about the show's production. It's often held up as a model of serial storytelling but what turned up on screen had very little to do with what was planned. I think e X is right here. The problem is not that stories have to be written with endings in mind and set in stone; it's that Lost and BSG and the like were early examples of trying to figure out how to do sustained arc-based serial television, and they both had their ups and downs because of this. This shouldn't take away from their achievements, but it certainly became very clear that "sticking the landing" was going to be an important part of how a TV series is perceived. It's easy in hindsight to accuse them of gross incompetence, but they really were charting new ground.
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Nov 25, 2014 22:12
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ashpanash posted:This shouldn't take away from their achievements, but it certainly became very clear that "sticking the landing" was going to be an important part of how a TV series is perceived. In our modern culture, if something has a flaw there are many people who will be unable to see past it for the aspects they DID like. Something is often either "total poo poo" or "one of the greatest X I've ever Y'd" when people post about them online, but in reality things don't summarize up that nicely. I already complained about this re: Interstellar, but people don't like endings to BSG so the whole show sucks and they won't rewatch the early episodes they DID like. People didn't like S1 of Agents of Shield so the show sucks forever, no matter how much they turn it around. Those people are a minority, but it's easy to get the idea that that is widely the opinion when reading about the loud portions of an online discussion forum. I didn't like many parts of BSG, but that doesn't make the in-atmosphere jump to rescue the colonists an awesome bit of TV storytelling that I want to watch again sometime. e: not to totally dismiss the "whole being more important than the sum of parts" way of thinking, but I think these mental summarizations can make people forget aspects that were positive because in their head it can become this monolith of "lovely ENDING" or "SEASON 5 SUCKED" or whatever that drowns out the rest.
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Nov 25, 2014 22:22
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ashpanash posted:I think e X is right here. The problem is not that stories have to be written with endings in mind and set in stone; it's that Lost and BSG and the like were early examples of trying to figure out how to do sustained arc-based serial television, and they both had their ups and downs because of this. This shouldn't take away from their achievements, but it certainly became very clear that "sticking the landing" was going to be an important part of how a TV series is perceived. It's easy in hindsight to accuse them of gross incompetence, but they really were charting new ground. Or their writers just weren't very good at thinking on their feet. More people writing a book series use outlines than don't as I understand it. I guess maybe there's a good reason for that. Electromax posted:I already complained about this re: Interstellar, but people don't like endings to BSG so the whole show sucks and they won't rewatch the early episodes they DID like. I never even got close to seeing BSG's ending. I think it had more systemic problems than that.
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Nov 25, 2014 22:25
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ashpanash posted:It's pretty well documented that the BSG writers had no idea what they were writing towards, while the Lost writers had a very vague idea. As far as Game of Thrones goes, I vaguely recall reading somewhere the creators talking to George RR Martin about what to do in case he kicks the bucket before he finishes the last book.
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Nov 25, 2014 22:28
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Arrakis is a magical place.
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Nov 25, 2014 22:30
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Electromax posted:That I'll allow. I'm partial to the SciFi channel miniseries from ~2003 also, although I've not seen it in years. I heard they did a Children of Dune followup as well. Children of dune is really good. I highly suggest it.
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Nov 25, 2014 22:39
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Whoops. Thought I'd clicked on the Agents of SHIELD thread and was confused for a moment.
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Nov 25, 2014 23:09
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The Sharmat posted:Or their writers just weren't very good at thinking on their feet. More people writing a book series use outlines than don't as I understand it. I guess maybe there's a good reason for that. Having a plan for a book series is very good, but TV shows have a lot more random bullshit that can mess with your plan. Publishers are a lot more generous with letting a writer know how many books they will get in a series, and sticking with it. Whereas a TV series won't know how long it's going to run for. And they'll have to deal with things like actors leaving/having availability issues, budgets being slashed, seasons being given more or fewer episodes. There's also problems like a character who is supposed to be major in the original vision of the writers being miscast and for the good of the show they have to minimize the part, and all kinds of crap like that. While novelists basically always have to alter their plans as well, it is usually for the sake of making the overall plan come together better. TV shows more have to do the best with whatever they have. I think Breaking Bad is probably the best example of a writing staff that can keep things going just as good as if it had been planned from the beginning with everything going just how they wanted (minus some iffy season 2 stuff.) Agents of Shield has a lot of hamstringing done to it because they have to deal with all the above stuff, plus being part of a greater fictional universe wherein the show's needs are subservient to those of the films. In season 1 they definitely could have done a better job despite being held off on things due to Captain America 2, but it seems to have found its footing in a way where it's much more its own show and, if not "good TV", watchable and fun. PriorMarcus posted:The time jump was the final straw for more. I find them to be incredibly lazy, lovely ways of telling a serialized story. I can't think of a single one I've liked. I thought the recent Fargo miniseries' timeskip was done pretty well. Normally I'm with you on not liking timeskips though. In more direct showchat, regardless of team member or evil murderer status, Ward is SHIELD's best asset right now. They've been getting their asses kicked since the Hydra unveiling and Ward kidnapping that once dude is their biggest counter-attack so far. Coulson should set his personal feelings aside and instead of stonewalling Ward, string him along a little more. Though it is probably too late to start now.
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Nov 25, 2014 23:34
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ashpanash posted:It's pretty well documented that the BSG writers had no idea what they were writing towards, while the Lost writers had a very vague idea. The difference between Lost, BSG and the series you mentioned is that only those first two are built around a mystery the writers didn't have an answer too. Shockingly it seems like by virtue of being connected to the MCU AoS might have avoided that problem.
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Nov 26, 2014 00:11
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Electromax posted:In our modern culture, if something has a flaw there are many people who will be unable to see past it for the aspects they DID like. Something is often either "total poo poo" or "one of the greatest X I've ever Y'd" when people post about them online, but in reality things don't summarize up that nicely. I don't know if that's "modern culture" so much as the Internet. In real life, people are able to discuss things rationally and weigh pros and cons. The language of the Internet is hyperbole.
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Nov 26, 2014 00:35
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PriorMarcus posted:The difference between Lost, BSG and the series you mentioned is that only those first two are built around a mystery the writers didn't have an answer too. I only partially agree with this. Lots of shows are built around a mystery, and it's very rare that the writers have more than a vague conception of what the answer actually is. Fringe, The Mentalist, The X-Files, Stargate: Universe, How I met your Mother, the list is long. I think Lost's biggest sin was giving the audience the impression that the mystery was something that the audience could actually solve. It was gripping intellectually as well as being emotionally satisfying as a series, but then the rug was pulled out from under you at the end. BSG's problems were more structural; the intellectual grip never really stuck, and the emotional beats were all over the map and confused. It ended up a much more muddled journey. Lost still works, to me, as a really fantastic piece of television entertainment marred by the heavy burden of expectations, while BSG spent much of its time trying to get the momentum it had from season 1.
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Nov 26, 2014 00:38
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ashpanash posted:I only partially agree with this. Lots of shows are built around a mystery, and it's very rare that the writers have more than a vague conception of what the answer actually is. Fringe, The Mentalist, The X-Files, Stargate: Universe, How I met your Mother, the list is long. I agree with all of this actually, but just wanted to point out that actually Fringe, Universe and How I Met Your Mother knew the answer to their central question very early in production.
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Nov 26, 2014 01:22
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No new episode this week because of the holiday right?
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Nov 26, 2014 01:50
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Right.
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Nov 26, 2014 01:56
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Kesper North posted:No new episode this week because of the holiday right? The show's producers agreed that the SA AoS thread needed another week of Dune and serial TV show discussion.
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Nov 26, 2014 01:59
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Pander posted:The show's producers agreed that the SA AoS thread needed another week of Dune and serial TV show discussion. The same genius and foresight that led to them thinking this show sucked for 3/4s of the first season!
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Nov 26, 2014 02:02
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PriorMarcus posted:I agree with all of this actually, but just wanted to point out that actually Fringe, Universe and How I Met Your Mother knew the answer to their central question very early in production. Hell, HIMYM shot part of the ending in 2006. It's arguably the opposite of what we're discussing - a show whose ending suffered, not from the creators writing by the seat of their pants, but from them knowing EXACTLY where they wanted to go and sticking with it long after it could have been relevant or fitting.
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Nov 26, 2014 02:04
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They still had a few outs along the way with Victoria (Yay!), Stella (Meh.), and Zoey (Boo!). But we got what we got.
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Nov 26, 2014 02:12
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Pander posted:The show's producers agreed that the SA AoS thread needed another week of Dune and serial TV show discussion. It's better to have interesting TV talk then it is to have endless arguments over whether Ward shot the dog.
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Nov 26, 2014 02:14
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No episode tonight because they're filming an Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D./Castle crossover. Tweet 1: Nathan FillionVerified account “@Kyle_MacLachlan: On @AgentsofSHIELD I found @Castle_ABC sides in my coat. @NathanFillion ” I need those back.  Tweet 2: Ming-Na WenVerified account Today's workday on #AgentsofSHIELD was extra special cuz the magnificent @NathanFillion came by to visit. @Castle_ABC was shooting nearby!  Tweet 3: Clark GreggVerified account Crossover alert #agentsofCASTLE ? #MalLives ? @nathanfillion http://fb.me/4bM0O8GD7
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Nov 26, 2014 02:32
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So, why does Flash air but AoS doesn't? If it is because of Thanksgiving, which I guess is at one point this week (?), wouldn't that effect all channels? Or do different channels handle holidays that differently?
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Nov 26, 2014 02:36
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e X posted:So, why does Flash air but AoS doesn't? If it is because of Thanksgiving, which I guess is at one point this week (?), wouldn't that effect all channels? Or do different channels handle holidays that differently? Different channels handle holidays differently. This ain't the BBC!
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Nov 26, 2014 02:40
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e X posted:So, why does Flash air but AoS doesn't? If it is because of Thanksgiving, which I guess is at one point this week (?), wouldn't that effect all channels? Or do different channels handle holidays that differently? Yea, it's really weird this week. For my bundle of shows, it's the fact that AoS isn't, but Flash, Sleepy Hollow, Supernatural, and Elementary are all on and even weirder, Elementary is on Thanksgiving night. I assume it's just a network thing, but someone who knows more can fill both of us in because I was wondering the same.
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Nov 26, 2014 02:41
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That would certainly breathe new life into Castle.
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Nov 26, 2014 04:16
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Kheldarn posted:No episode tonight because they're filming an Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D./Castle crossover. I saw that picture and thought "Oh god, crazy eyes!" Him as The Captain was one of the best things about the last couple seasons of HIMYM.
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Nov 26, 2014 04:40
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