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Periodiko posted:That's literally a major foundation of Gandhi's non-violence strategy - you walk unarmed towards the men with truncheons and get your skull cracked open, and goad the regime into acting with naked brutality towards a pacifist target. You can argue about the strategy's effectiveness or morality, but Gandhi is one of the great strategists of civil disobedience and protest in the 20th century. There was plenty of violent resistance in India alongside Gandhi's non-violence movement, and even he said if you don't have the courage or moral conviction required for confrontational non-violent protest that violence was preferable to non-violence born from fear.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:00
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William T. Hornaday posted:Holy poo poo, police on the ground are actually responding to things. You can tell somebody was like "hey can we not let cars burn to a cinder-whitened frame? That'd be great, thanks."
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Nov 26, 2014 05:00
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Man Whore posted:can I get some more context for this photo? NYTimes photo referencing the increased Guard presence in Ferguson area.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:01
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Equine Don posted:Patrolling the neighborhoods. This is completely accurate. Went out for food last night and saw cops from all the tiny noco municipalities just doing high speed laps around their territory.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:01
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SedanChair posted:You can tell somebody was like "hey can we not let cars burn to a cinder-whitened frame? That'd be great, thanks." The police helicopter apparently was there with its spotlight on them the whole time.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:02
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Is this history we're witnessing or is it something that will be forgotten in a few months? CNN is certainly making it sound like something HUGE is going down.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:02
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Kit Walker posted:Quite to the contrary. Every peaceful civil disobedience movement had a violent counterpart. You have one side that goes "we just want rights, we're not hurting anybody" and another side that goes "we want rights and we'll loving kill you all if we don't get it." The carrot and the stick. People are more likely to negotiate with the former when the alternative is the latter. But then why are people acting like the looters/arsonists and the peaceful protestors in Ferguson are the same people?
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Nov 26, 2014 05:02
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Foma posted:If your goal is to be an rear end in a top hat or cause other people pain you lose, because you aren't the group humanity will have empathy for. And yet Wilson and Zimmerman got hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations. Huh. Next you'll start telling me about how those jerks Carmichael and Malcolm X set back the cause of black rights  .
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Nov 26, 2014 05:02
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how do i bypass livestream's login requirement?
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Nov 26, 2014 05:02
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Kit Walker posted:Quite to the contrary. Every peaceful civil disobedience movement had a violent counterpart. You have one side that goes "we just want rights, we're not hurting anybody" and another side that goes "we want rights and we'll loving kill you all if we don't get it." The carrot and the stick. People are more likely to negotiate with the former when the alternative is the latter. A Fancy 400 lbs posted:There was plenty of violent resistance in India alongside Gandhi's non-violence movement, and even he said if you don't have the courage or moral conviction required for confrontational non-violent protest that violence was preferable to non-violence born from fear. The problem is that needs to be distinguishable, and organized. Whats happening in Ferguson is not Malcolm X, or the Black Panthers at their height, it's just disorganized chaos. Comparing the looting and arson of local businesses to black militancy at the height of the civil rights movement is deeply insulting to black militants. It's just stupid to say "oh these burning cars represent the proverbial stick to the protestor's carrot", because there's no direction or leadership. It's not just violence, it's stupid, directionless violence that actively undermines the activist cause. Periodiko fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Nov 26, 2014 |
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Nov 26, 2014 05:02
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Ditocoaf posted:But then why are people acting like the looters/arsonists and the peaceful protestors in Ferguson are the same people? To discredit the entire protest?
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Nov 26, 2014 05:03
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this stldagger fellow is cruisin for a bruisin
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Nov 26, 2014 05:03
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It's worth noting that this debate started because Foma said blocking a street and inconveniencing folks would just make them hate you and/or your cause. Now they're talking about rioters and looters, I guess.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:05
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420DD Butts posted:To discredit the entire protest? That comes back to my original point: Talk all you want about how protest should be nonviolent, it's meaningless if the existence of looters and arsonists three blocks away automatically makes your protest count as violent.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:06
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Captain Mog posted:Is this history we're witnessing or is it something that will be forgotten in a few months? CNN is certainly making it sound like something HUGE is going down. It will be forgotten in two weeks tops.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:06
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Look, the problem is is that the non-violent protesters aren't being non-violent enough. Peacefully blocking a road? Well that's stopping other people's freedom of movement which is basically violence. Truly committed non-violent protestors should just stay home and watch TV or whatever - thus ensuring a completely non-violent protest and the changing of hearts and minds across America.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:06
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Like a hundred police officers protecting the vandalized car. And smoke canisters unleashed. At no one really in particular.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:07
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Periodiko posted:The problem is that needs to be distinguishable, and organized. Whats happening in Ferguson is not Malcolm X, or the Black Panthers at their height, it's just disorganized chaos. I agree. Protestors should invest in firearms for their demonstrations. Then the police can join the "don't shoot" chanting.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:07
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Periodiko posted:The problem is that needs to be distinguishable, and organized. Whats happening in Ferguson is not Malcolm X, or the Black Panthers at their height, it's just disorganized chaos. Comparing looters to protestors is deeply ignorant. Also you're pretending race riots weren't occurring during the civil rights movements. 420DD Butts posted:To discredit the entire protest? Yeah, anyone who falls for this sort of thinking would never legitimately support any form of protest in Ferguson.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:07
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Captain Mog posted:Is this history we're witnessing or is it something that will be forgotten in a few months? CNN is certainly making it sound like something HUGE is going down. Everyone acting like this is some huge Missourian uprising is a loving moron. The initial poo poo that happened months ago was contained to a 1x1 mile area in North County and last night was contained to a 4x4 mile area. The majority of the people in the state do not give a poo poo about any of this, are not having their lives changed by any of this, and basically do not care at all. North County is already thought of as a pile of poo poo and is actively avoided by most people who live in the area. The media is trying to make it sound like St. Louis is burning, most people who live here are just going about their business as usual.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:07
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420DD Butts posted:Look, I would have supported you in your battle against rape but you had to go and yell about it, and that really bothered me. I guess we'll never have change if you can't just learn to never inconvenience me. If you can't see the difference between physical violence towards others and destruction of property compared to beeing rightfully upset and angry about rape your metamorphosis to shitlord is complete.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:07
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Seams posted:Peacefully blocking a road? Well that's stopping other people's freedom of movement which is basically violence. Don't be a moron.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:08
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People getting gassed on the stldagger stream
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Nov 26, 2014 05:09
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It's stupid directionless violence because groups like the Black Panthers have become culturally taboo because of bullshit "colorblind", let's just get along(and ignore the oppression that still exists) style anti-racism taking the forefront among the average person. People tell black people not to form groups like that because they should be peacefully protesting and then complain that violence is unfocused because there's no groups like that around. It's trying to have your cake and eat it too.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:09
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Wilson should have gone to trial. We would still be able to hear both sides of the story. Also, can someone Explain Like I'm Five on why did Zimmerman get acquitted, but Dunn did not? They both committed similar crimes. Why didn't the Grand Jury remember those two cases?
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Nov 26, 2014 05:10
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Melthir posted:If you can't see the difference between physical violence towards others and destruction of property compared to beeing rightfully upset and angry about rape your metamorphosis to shitlord is complete. They were talking about protesters blocking a highway, you idiot.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:10
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Ditocoaf posted:But then why are people acting like the looters/arsonists and the peaceful protestors in Ferguson are the same people? A lot of this is media driven. They focus on the people burning poo poo and looting disproportionately to people being peaceful and chanting, because the former is more exciting television than the latter
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Nov 26, 2014 05:10
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Wow tear gas can hit a moving car
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Nov 26, 2014 05:10
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Equine Don posted:It will be forgotten in two weeks tops. I really really hope you're wrong.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:10
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:It's stupid directionless violence because groups like the Black Panthers have become culturally taboo because of bullshit "colorblind", let's just get along(and ignore the oppression that still exists) style anti-racism taking the forefront among the average person. People tell black people not to form groups like that because they should be peacefully protesting and then complain that violence is unfocused because there's no groups like that around. It's trying to have your cake and eat it too. The nineties terrified people. They were afraid of Arsenio Hall.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:11
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Seams posted:Look, the problem is is that the non-violent protesters aren't being non-violent enough. Peacefully blocking a road? Well that's stopping other people's freedom of movement which is basically violence. Truly committed non-violent protestors should just stay home and watch TV or whatever - thus ensuring a completely non-violent protest and the changing of hearts and minds across America. If Foma is characterizing potentially illegal, but non-violent civil disobedience as violent protest or out of bounds than that's stupid, but the aimless violence is truly a major problem for the Ferguson civil rights protesters, and a major problem for the citizens of Ferguson. The argument that aimless looting and arson advances the cause is asinine, and I'm sure many or most of the non-violent protesters hate it.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:11
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If there had been no violence at all, this wouldn't have been on the agenda.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:11
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dialectics posted:It's worth noting that this debate started because Foma said blocking a street and inconveniencing folks would just make them hate you and/or your cause. Now they're talking about rioters and looters, I guess. I was talking about both things blocking streets and rioting/looting. Doing things that turn people against you is bad for a protest movement, you want to be seen as the righteous and good. If you want to change things you need to bring people into your cause. Your goal is to get more people to empathize with your group and cause. Going out and blocking the highway doesn't bring people in.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:12
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Kit Walker posted:Quite to the contrary. Every peaceful civil disobedience movement had a violent counterpart. You have one side that goes "we just want rights, we're not hurting anybody" and another side that goes "we want rights and we'll loving kill you all if we don't get it." The carrot and the stick. People are more likely to negotiate with the former when the alternative is the latter. Having it happen at the same time just makes it look chaotic and schizophrenic. There's no real comparisons to smashing random businesses and Malcolm X, at any rate.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:12
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SedanChair posted:The nineties terrified people. They were afraid of Arsenio Hall. But I thought white people loved Arsenio? My worldview is shattered!
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Nov 26, 2014 05:12
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Tardcore posted:I really really hope you're wrong. The truth sucks.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:13
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Foma posted:I was talking about both things blocking streets and rioting/looting. Doing things that turn people against you is bad for a protest movement, you want to be seen as the righteous and good. If you want to change things you need to bring people into your cause. Your goal is to get more people to empathize with your group and cause. Going out and blocking the highway doesn't bring people in. Civil Rights era - never created inconvenience for anyone. You heard it here, folks.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:13
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Periodiko posted:The problem is that needs to be distinguishable, and organized. Whats happening in Ferguson is not Malcolm X, or the Black Panthers at their height, it's just disorganized chaos. This exactly, you can argue that the reactions are justified but to argue that this is an effective strategy that is winning people over is laughably wrong.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:14
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This is the best thing that can possibly come of the Michael Brown shooting.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:14
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:It's stupid directionless violence because groups like the Black Panthers have become culturally taboo because of bullshit "colorblind", let's just get along(and ignore the oppression that still exists) style anti-racism taking the forefront among the average person. People tell black people not to form groups like that because they should be peacefully protesting and then complain that violence is unfocused because there's no groups like that around. It's trying to have your cake and eat it too. It's stupid directionless violence because the people of Ferguson have lost and they know it. It's defeated violence. Everybody has been talking about "White people didn't riot after OJ," and all I can say is this: People didn't riot after OJ Simpson because they were surprised. People rioted after Darren Wilson because they weren't surprised. It's just rage because you have a black President who's powerless to do anything about state violence against your people, and you feel nothing is going to change and that Mike Brown died in vain. People aren't rioting for change, they're rioting because they don't expect change.
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Nov 26, 2014 05:14
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