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Private Eye posted:Isn't he supposed to be out in 10 months? The sentence was 5 years, but I believe with good behaviour and time served he could be in for as little as 10 months. Frankly, after watching that Ross Kemp on Gangs episode where he went to Pollsmoor prison, I'm pretty sure 10 months inside a South African prison is quite enough punishment for drat near anything. PT6A fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Oct 21, 2014 |
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Oct 21, 2014 22:26
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On the scandinavian prison thing, article in english by the company who made it (a swedish subdivision of YLE, finnish broadcasting company): http://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2014/10/21/norden-why-dont-you-just-give-them-keys quote:James Conway is shaking his head in disbelief as he walks through the institution they call ”prison” in Halden in Norway. During a one week filming trip with The Finnish Broadcasting Company he visited different kinds of correctional institutions in Finland and Sweden, but the Norwegian ultra liberal regime was nothing like what he’s used to. The upcoming episodes sound interesting, and the show creator has said they're working on getting it translated to english for a wider audience.
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Oct 22, 2014 08:28
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“If i was homeless I would much rather be in that prison than sleeping on the streets.” Is that meant to be a bad thing?
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Oct 22, 2014 08:52
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Zesty Mordant posted:I know, and for-profit prisons remains the most hideous concept I can think of going on right now in the United States, and makes me want to grab everyone I pass by the collar and tell them about it, even if most people probably don't care, which is insane. The idea of monetizing human suffering would not strike many as too strange. Good news! Some of those for-profit prison companies are looking at trying to increase their parole numbers...to funnel people into the for-profit parolee/probation systems they also own. 
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Oct 22, 2014 09:16
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MechPlasma posted:“If i was homeless I would much rather be in that prison than sleeping on the streets.” The weird thing is much of Europe doesn't exactly have a homeless problem either because, well, they've also solved that by not treating the homeless like pariahs and giving them a hand. A while back I was reading that a journalist wanted to compare the homeless in America to the homeless in...Denmark, I think...but ended up not writing the article because he couldn't even find any homeless people in Denmark.
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Oct 22, 2014 11:09
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Oh well, he should just come back. Thanks to decades of neo-con leadership, we have more than ever dying in the street! 
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Oct 22, 2014 11:32
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Plenty of homeless people in Paris.
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Oct 22, 2014 11:38
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ToxicSlurpee posted:America isn't asking anything it's just throwing anybody that does anything wrong in a hole filled with violence and horror and wondering why they come out damaged. No, America assumes they were inherently broken to begin with. There's a part of me that wonders how many people think we should just automatically imprison every convicted felon for life.
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Oct 22, 2014 17:36
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MechPlasma posted:“If i was homeless I would much rather be in that prison than sleeping on the streets.” Clearly it means all the homeless people will commit crimes in order to get sent to prison!!!!!
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Oct 22, 2014 18:30
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The weird thing is much of Europe doesn't exactly have a homeless problem either because, well, they've also solved that by not treating the homeless like pariahs and giving them a hand. No, they haven't: http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/jun/13/anti-homeless-spikes-hostile-architecture
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Oct 22, 2014 19:15
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Alhazred posted:No, they haven't: It's almost as if Europe isn't a country http://www.share-international.org/archives/homelessness/hl-asbNorway.htm It seems like the worst case scenario for the homeless in Norway is a a lovely room in a hostel. Not ideal, but the predictions that there's going to be a surge of crime to get locked up for food and shelter because the prisons aren't hellholes like the rest of the world is nonsense.
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Oct 22, 2014 19:26
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Norway really isn't indicative of Europe in a lot of ways. Norwegian prisons certainly are different from Europe's.
Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Oct 22, 2014 |
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Oct 22, 2014 19:32
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Kurtofan posted:Norway really isn't indicative of Europe in a lot of ways. Norwegian prisons certainly are different from Europe. Norway has also had some really lovely politics about homeless lately (especially about the homeless that are Romani People) including bringing back a law that bans begging.
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Oct 22, 2014 19:40
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:No, America assumes they were inherently broken to begin with. There's a part of me that wonders how many people think we should just automatically imprison every convicted felon for life. I've met people that believe we should end food stamps and just lock up everybody that gets them currently into labor camps so yeah, there are people that believe that and worse. Seriously, gently caress this country.
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Oct 22, 2014 20:49
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I live in Europe (Denmark, specifically), and we have plenty of homeless. Twenty years of neo-con gently caress You policies have made their numbers grow and conditions detetoriate.
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Oct 30, 2014 12:21
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Main Paineframe posted:Clearly it means all the homeless people will commit crimes in order to get sent to prison!!!!! Already happens in the USA.
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Oct 30, 2014 22:34
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Except the chucklehead in that article appears to be writing unironically. 
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Oct 31, 2014 02:06
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I will copypaste my post from the AsknTell prison discussion, since it might interest some people here:spud posted:How do Nordic prisons compare to what has been posted here? From what little I have seen of them, the accommodation looks almost as good as a budget hotel (with shitter decor). I mean, that Brevik guy has a ps3 or something doesn't he? Do you have the issues with drugs being smuggled, booze being made, gangs etc? They are like nice motels with organized activity. Many of them allow you to get out to buy groceries and go to work in the morning and they have video games and movies and nice gyms and big yards and computer rooms and what not. They are fairly comparable to a somekind of youth summer camp. People don't often have to smuggle cell phones since they can have them as normal. Guards engage and cooperate with the prisoners to help them with daily activities. The new prisoners are the nicer looking ones and the old prisons look like "prisons" with still bars and poo poo like that, and have old-timey cells and more cement, but still function like the other prisons, despite looking rougher. Health care is kickass of course as is the course in Nordic Europe and plenty of behavioral education and psychological help is available. Guard training is selective and comprehensive with emphasis on social studies, education, pedagogy and other relevant fields. Some compare them to school teachers. Guards are often well liked. Here is a shittier and older prison cell with a prisoner:  There are no prison uniforms often, but your own clothing that you buy with the decent money you make. The decor is often better than american motels, in my experience. Here is a newer type open prison with no walls:  Canteen Compound:  Entrance:  This prison has cells like this:  You being a murderer or a serial killer in itself is often not a reason to treat you differently if you act like people. And when you treat people like people, they often act like people. But the few trouble customers spend time in their own sections that limit some basic freedoms but are not too bad. Finland has a total of one guy in solitary right now, a police supervisor who got caught with organized crime connections, with millions buried in his yard and poo poo, so he can't get a cell phone or talk to other prisoners due to the National Bureau of Investigation having suspected police officers on their hunt list and they don't want to compromise that. Some judges are fairly opposed to keeping Supervisor Aarnio in long solitary, since he has been in solitary almost 8 months now. Almost unheard of. Points to note is that solitary means that only contact he gets is with guards and he has no access to cellphones or the internet, but he is not in a dark hole. He is in a unit by himself with several rooms, a small gym and things like that. The solitary is not "punitive", but just a separation of outside contact, while otherwise treating him well. Similar to how Mass Murderer Breivik is handled in Norway. Norway has a maximum penalty of 25 years with then yearly checks if you should wait for parole. Finland has a "life sentence" that often means 6-10 years in prison, 6-10 in probation after that and rest of your life on suspended sentence. Sweden has prison years for 10 (18 in case of murder, but basically no one sits that long) in their "life sentence" and rest of it on probation. Recidivism is fairly low and leniency for everyone is always emphasized. In a complete reversal, judges aim for the most leniency possible and mitigating factors are always heavier than aggravating ones. The victim and the perp are both victims of the shortcoming of the society. And the important part is that they work. Prisoners rehabilitate, are happier, enter the society again (though they are never kept truly separate) faster and overall society benefits. These are also much cheaper institutions than americans are, since prisoners do most the stuff themselves, such as food and activities. ALso operating the prison ferry in some cases, lol. Criminal records don't gently caress people over and employer has no right to know about them unless they pertain to the field, such as embezzlement for banking, abuse of authority for security guard, ie you get the point. Even then it is not a disqualifier automatically. When nearing release, they often strive to keep their jobs they had while inside or prison counselors help to get them into public jobs like libraries, public works and other similar jobs help them land on their feet. It's not too uncommon for a prisoner to make more money than a guard in nordic prisons since they accept all the overtime they can and are paid according to labor union contracts of their field of labor. Since many of them are a bit bored and eager to save up for life outside, they work like hell and land in the real world with a nice nest egg. They also get regular housing, student and unemployment assistance as any resident gets if they can't find work. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Nov 26, 2014 |
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Nov 26, 2014 10:02
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Vahakyla posted:I will copypaste my post from the AsknTell prison discussion, since it might interest some people here: It's also worth noting that none of this should really come off as counter-intuitive: if you're a member of an inner city gang, for example, because you're impoverished and have little hope in your mind of interfacing with the world through any other means, a Nordic prison is basically tailor-made to fill that hole in the person's life. Surprise, surprise - when said hole is filled, the person is no longer interested in criminal activity and becomes an engaged community member. The same is true for people who really just needed counselling or company and took a terribly wrong turn at some point; give them what they need and then they're as functional as anyone else. The only problematic people such a jail can't rehabilitate are sociopaths - the sort of rare criminals that western media loves to lionize, sensationalize & turn into celebrity figures so we can pretend that our lovely systems are totally this necessary protective feature. Except our systems can't really deal with those people either, so we just shove them into a hole forever or kill them and pretend that this is totally JUSTICE SERVED rather than a slow-motion replica of a gulag.
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Nov 26, 2014 10:23
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The Ender posted:
A norwegian judge said after Breivik, to this very thing, that "We don't really know if we can or not, and as a society, we owe it to everyone to try our best in providing the best care and help to them, no matter how unlikely a positive result is", after being interviewed by american journalists.
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Nov 26, 2014 10:26
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...I am honestly very curious what Breivik's personality will be like after a few years in that prison. The west isn't necessarily that obsessed with mass murderers like Breivik, though, as far as their celebrity psychos go. We're more into the Ted Bundy type - folks who seems to be clinically damaged in some way, able to lead what appear to be totally normal lives while going out in the dark to murder passers by. I think I agree with most folks over on this end of the pond that most people like that can't be reformed (unless we develop a treatment for whatever is wrong with their brain), but I agree with yourself & the judge that it ultimately doesn't matter: our responsibility is still to treat them with compassion, even if they're incapable of returning it.
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Nov 26, 2014 10:38
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I have to chime in, and say that the pictures and description Vahakyla offers cannot be called a "nordic" standard. In Denmark, most of our jails have tiny, lovely cells, and we are one of the world leaders in use of isolation. While we have few really exemplary prisons that more resemble hotel, they are reserved for the richest, people who get caught for million dollar frauds and the like.
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Nov 26, 2014 15:34
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Tias posted:I have to chime in, and say that the pictures and description Vahakyla offers cannot be called a "nordic" standard. In Denmark, most of our jails have tiny, lovely cells, and we are one of the world leaders in use of isolation. I'm also curious about the demographics of these prisons, I know for example that something like 70% of French prisoners are Muslim and their prisons aren't as nice.
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Nov 26, 2014 15:48
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Tias posted:I have to chime in, and say that the pictures and description Vahakyla offers cannot be called a "nordic" standard. In Denmark, most of our jails have tiny, lovely cells, and we are one of the world leaders in use of isolation. While I haven't really immersed myself in Danish Prisons, what you say does not seem to be true. Denmark scores pretty highly on the rehabilitation scale and your point seems to talk more about the cells themselves than the facility itself. Denmark has a shitton of oooooold prisons, more than several centuries. This is the case in other Nordics too and these prisons are lovely from the glance due to the concrete and metal everywhere, but they function as more modern facilities than prisons anywhere. The old prisons are undergoing renovations and refurbishments, but there is only so much you can do to a 230 year old jail cell to look it comfy. While they do look rough, and while not all prisons are of the new constructions with fancy dorm rooms and hard wood floors, it is important to make a separation between the aesthetics of the prison and the functionality of it. And according the official pages of the Criminal Service, http://www.kriminalforsorgen.dk/English-29.aspx, the other point you said was not true, either. All scales of inmates from simple batteries to murder can and do serve in the newer open type prisons, too, and not just "rich people". The Danish Goverment uses Open Prisons to the same degree as the other Nordic Countries, in other words slowly moving as many people to them as possible and prioritizing those who are closer to release. Yet, the closed prisons are nothing like "prisons" for americans, either. http://www.nopenguins.com/danish-open-prison The Danish prisons are nothing like the American ones in any way. Maybe you are looking at this from inside the Nordic perspective and you view them as lower as perhaps Norwegian prisons, but you need to adjust your perspective or what you say is going to be largely irrelevant to international discussion about prisons. Of the isolation, I don't know about anything. I'd hazard a guess that isolation means no contact with cellphones, internet and other inmates, but otherwise still decent facilities. Once again nothing like isolation in America. Nordics are also fairly different from the French, so I don't know. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Nov 26, 2014 |
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Nov 26, 2014 20:35
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I can't provide facts on hand as I'm on my way to work, but it's a pretty open secret that the open-style prisons that are more like country clubs are reserved for suits who commit fraud and the like. Isolation means that you're stuck in a tiny, lovely cell with nothing to do 23 hours a day, with no contact in any form. Denmark is one of the world leaders in its use, and we're also really good at detaining people without trial and blocking prisoner access to the developments in their case. This article goes over it some, and I can elaborate later on if you'd like: http://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledgebase/323-solitary-confinement-a-threat-to-denmark-s-credibility
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Nov 27, 2014 08:48
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Open prisons like the one Vahakyla described are for non-violent offenders (white-collar criminals tend to fall under this definition, naturally), but the few Finnish facilities that exist for violent offenders, members of organized crime etc., operate on the same principles but with slightly heightened security. The guards still don't carry guns, the prisoners are allowed to cook their own meals, decorate their cells, have PlayStations, get to leave the prison for a few days at a time if they behave well, work jobs, study, etc. Having old prisons and having no money to renovate them is definitely a problem here too. Funding prisons is universally a political non-starter.
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Nov 27, 2014 14:14
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More money for disenfranchised people! - No Politician Ever
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Nov 27, 2014 21:25
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repeating posted:More money for disenfranchised people! - No Politician Ever At some point it had to have happened in Scandinavia.
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Nov 27, 2014 21:53
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VideoTapir posted:At some point it had to have happened in Scandinavia. I wonder if there's anything different about America that makes its citizens more reluctant to extend funding for disenfranchised people
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Nov 27, 2014 23:44
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if only America could be as selfless as Europe....
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Nov 27, 2014 23:47
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Antti posted:Open prisons like the one Vahakyla described are for non-violent offenders (white-collar criminals tend to fall under this definition, naturally), but the few Finnish facilities that exist for violent offenders, members of organized crime etc., operate on the same principles but with slightly heightened security. The guards still don't carry guns, the prisoners are allowed to cook their own meals, decorate their cells, have PlayStations, get to leave the prison for a few days at a time if they behave well, work jobs, study, etc. That's not true. While it is the popular perception, murderers and other violent criminals do serve in open prisons in Finland and other nordic countries. I know it's really common to say how they are "rich people prisons" but it simply is not true. Hell, a friend of mine sold loads of drugs and while the other times before he got probation, this time he got "hard time" inside a open prison in central Finland. His cellmate was an axe murderer and on the other side was a dude who shot at cops couple years ago. While these are only anecdotes, so do the official guidelines of the national prison service say that the type of crime has much less bearing on the location, while the manner and past actions have much more effect on the serving location. A lot of people enter a closed prison, then gravitate towards open prisons after a year or so, depending on the region and available space and what not. But as mentioned, the closed prisons are pretty open, too, and nothing like prisons elsewhere in the world.
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Dec 7, 2014 18:33
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Do you live in any of the nordic countries? Because, you know, I do, and it's not like I don't know people who've served time..
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Dec 8, 2014 15:35
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Tias posted:Do you live in any of the nordic countries? Because, you know, I do, and it's not like I don't know people who've served time.. Yes, up until recently. Like I said, your perception on what is "bad" is another story on the international scale of prisons. You or your friends most likely have valid complaints of the Criminal Justice in Denmark, and I don't dispute those in any way. They just aren't the same kind of issues when comparing to the United States and its issues with criminal justice and if an american says "my prison time was bad" and you say that your buddy's time in prison in Denmark was "bad" and then you two have a discussion on prison reform on that starting point, it's like insanity. The Danish system has shortcomings and it has outliers and it has people that do not receive the best of the treatment. Most of the time though, people in there are served fairly well. You do realize that this is nothing like the US Prison System at all, the "good treatment" is the outlier and the exception. Here is even a study acknowledgins that Danish system has issues, yet also states that: quote:Conditions faced by isolated Danish remand prisoners today are very different from those of their U.S. supermax counterparts and would probably be considered much more humane by most observers An excerpt from Denmark: The new State Prison of Jutland, where some of the most dangerous prisoners are kept: It also offers a 37 hour workweek with good competetive pay to the inmates, various education programs, the occasional holiday allowed for prisons to go home or go take a walk around the town. Great substance abuse rehab programs, social guidance, communal sporting events, food made by the prisoners themselves and other stuff. They get guidance and social counselors before release to help them adjust to the life outside and help with housing or work outside the prison. Denmark has a recidivism rate of 27% quote:Danish system also relies on handing out short sentences. The average sentence is six months and only two percent are over two years. In fact, more than half of sentences are three months or less.      
Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 17:04
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And as I said, the pictures you show are not representative of the system. I can only speak for Sjælland, but here you serve in concrete and brick shitholes with tiny cells and dilapedated commons. I understand that it's better elsewhere, but we still have pretty "punishing" surroundings. Even the worst of ours seems better than the US, I will readily concede that!
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Dec 13, 2014 14:02
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The bit about Scandinavian prisons relying heavily on solitary confinement, though, does seem to be true and is also very disturbing! Solitary is basically torture and making the solitary room cushy doesn't really help that much.
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Dec 13, 2014 21:37
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Denmark leads the world in isolation imprisonment per capita. A mate of mine got caught with street-level sale of amphetamines, and was put in isolation for two weeks. What the gently caress kind of reasoning goes into that? If they didn't want him communicating with accomplices, they could have just prevented him from receiving visits and mail, which they already did
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Dec 18, 2014 13:28
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How many do they have in isolation for years at a time?
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Dec 18, 2014 19:01
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I can't dig up any stats, though I'll ask around. My guess is, not many - It's used as a form of torture to get prisoners to cooperate with investigations or to break the will of non-conformist inmates, which seems to indicate that it's not happening for that long.
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Dec 20, 2014 14:40
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If an inmate works overtime in a Danish prison, can they get afspadsering?  "3 strikes laws" are bullshit: Is it any coincidence that nearly all of the high-speed police chases you see on TV are from California? If a guy is looking at his 3rd felony and life without parole, no exceptions, of course he is going to make a run for it, and doesn't give a poo poo who he injures/kills in the process. If anything, 3-strikes laws make the roads more dangerous and increase the risk to public safety. When you also consider mandatory minimums, tough-on-crime judges and various enhancer penalties for repeat offenders, these guys are already looking at some serious hard time (possibly decades worth) for a 3rd felony, so 3-strikes law are overkill most of the time. Just like the crack vs. powdered cocaine sentencing discrepancy, there is also a marijuana vs. hash sentencing discrepancy in a lot of states. Using a pollen press magically turns a misdemeanor into a felony and probation into a prison sentence. Singapore: This country seems to be the only place in the world where draconian policies work. However, it should be noted that the people there are the most unhappy people in the world.
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Jan 2, 2015 01:40
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SedanChair posted:I wonder if there's anything different about America that makes its citizens more reluctant to extend funding for disenfranchised people Exceptionalism. Tias posted:And as I said, the pictures you show are not representative of the system. I can only speak for Sjælland, but here you serve in concrete and brick shitholes with tiny cells and dilapedated commons. I understand that it's better elsewhere, but we still have pretty "punishing" surroundings. We have a lot of people in the shoe, or isolated confinement. We aren't better by far. It doesn't matter how nice your surroundings are, if you are in isolation, you are going crazy. Pohl fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Jan 2, 2015 |
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Jan 2, 2015 02:09
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