|
Say what you will about Darken Rahl, he held out against the all-consuming power of legendary artifacts like a boss.
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 05:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 20:34 |
|
|
Domus posted:Wait, wait, I just noticed something else: I think the assumption is that after Rahl has the power of God he can pretty much do whatever he wants to.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 06:07
|
|
|
DrPossum posted:
Well I only read out that one sequence, so all they knew was the bit where a pedophile gets his nuts cut off and fed to him, followed by being smacked in the head with a mace. Out of context that's pretty metal.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 08:06
|
|
did you go to mord sith school?
|
Glazius posted:Say what you will about Darken Rahl, he held out against the all-consuming power of legendary artifacts like a boss. Yeah, his death goes on for a while. Now that Rahl is dead, let's see what our heroes do to celebrate. quote:"Richard, I touched you with the magic. I felt it. I heard it. I saw it. How could the power not have taken you?" And then they get the big hollywood happy ending. Imagine time speeding up for a bit as they make out in a lovely garden. quote:Richard had no idea how long they knelt there embracing, but decided at last that they had better go find Zedd. Or they could go find Wizard Daddy I guess. NO loving GAME ON THIS GUY. quote:"Zedd, he loves me! He figured out how to make it work, with the magic. There was a way, and he found it." And then Goodkind wrote a novel about it decades later, because that dude also has no loving game. Here is what happens after this: Richard now rules D'Hara, has his brother beheaded, sends the Westland and People's Armies to go undo the fire ban, and can't eat cheese. quote:Richard tried the cheese, and to his surprise found it had a sickening flavor. He threw it back on the table as he made a sour face. So yeah, wonder why that is. Maybe we'll find out next time! This novel ends on so many goddamn dangling threads. Similarly, this is going to be left until next time when it does not happen at all: quote:"I have a job for you." The man waited in silence. "I think you would be good at getting it done. I want you to collect all the Mord-Sith. Every last one." The novel ends with Richard returning that Mud People kid that Nass stole to them on dragonback, which is a plan I expect will go over SO SHITTILY because the last time Scarlet came in, she murdered shitloads of them. Meanwhile, Zedd is Zedd. quote:The man in the white robes approached. "Wizard Zorander, is Master Rahl about? There are matters to be discussed." DUN DUN DUMB So we're done here, and I'm taking a day or two off because of work/Thanksgiving, and then I'll write some stuff up about what had to be done to this novel to adapt it for television. Spoilers: the Mord-Sith still factor in heavily. Almost moreso.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 08:07
|
|
|
Care of one of the thread's posters, I was asked to put this up with the final update: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_hZDzVYMF4 For the record, if you ever need to burn a book, possibly one of Counted Shadows, please be sure to open it and lay it facedown, spine in the air. It'll kindle faster in that fashion.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 08:08
|
|
|
How does it factor into objectivism to order a group of people to completely change their way? To force them into compassionnate acts even!
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 08:19
|
|
|
DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:Care of one of the thread's posters, I was asked to put this up with the final update: If we'd banned fire properly, you never could've gotten away with this!  I am generally very opposed to the burning of books, but in this case, I'm astonished that some kind of horrible, shrieking ghost of evil didn't come tearing out of the thing as it died. You've done God's work.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 08:20
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:How does it factor into objectivism to order a group of people to completely change their way? To force them into compassionnate acts even! That's okay, because they're untermenschen, and therefore are content with their lot in life: being ordered around by whoever is in charge, in this case Richard.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 08:33
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:How does it factor into objectivism to order a group of people to completely change their way? To force them into compassionnate acts even! Spoilers: they're all going to give him the finger and continue pain-rodding for Rahl. Just, y'know. The new Rahl, decidedly different from the old Rahl.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 08:36
|
|
|
Let me see if I understand this. The big final battle and ending was "the hero was in this one place where he can't lie, but lied." That's the final cataclysmic conclusion to this fantasy epic.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 08:39
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:Let me see if I understand this. Yes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 08:42
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:How does it factor into objectivism to order a group of people to completely change their way? To force them into compassionnate acts even! 
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 08:45
|
|
|
Penis Rahl 2: Dick Harder.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 08:50
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:Let me see if I understand this. - Richard suddenly using some previously unseen magic skills because ~war wizard~ - Richard making an incredible logical leap to exactly the correct answer because ~seeker~ - Richard and/or Kahlan loving the other extra hard Sindai fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Nov 27, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 09:14
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:Let me see if I understand this. The pacing of this whole book seems so bad. The beginnning is sorta inoffensive I guess what with the prerquisite introductions of the characters, but then they just kinda aimlessly gently caress around in the country without really accomplishing much of anything towards their final goal. Then there's torture fun time out of left field, and then the "climax" just sort of happens. Nothing about the final confrontation is informed by anything they've done in the rest of the book. Dick and Kahlan could have just surrendered to Rahl at the very beginning and it'd have gone the same way. Besides, has there been anything particularly romantic happening between Dick and Kahlan, anything that'd show they're well suited to each other? This seems like a ridiculously blatant case of "Protagonist is single, female supporting character is the only available woman, ergo ~*~true love~*~"
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 09:45
|
|
|
I could only glance at evertything you posted most of the time because it was so embarassingly bad, but congratulations.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 10:13
|
|
|
Sindai posted:Spoilers: every antagonist in the series is defeated by some combination of: - Coldblooded mass murder - People acknowledging Richard as the ubermesch <----- actually the most common and to be taken completely literally Perestroika posted:Besides, has there been anything particularly romantic happening between Dick and Kahlan, anything that'd show they're well suited to each other? This seems like a ridiculously blatant case of "Protagonist is single, female supporting character is the only available woman, ergo ~*~true love~*~" He's the only person she's ever met who doesn't fear or even really respect her at all which to be fair is something, I guess. Hell he basically treats her like human garbage at several points and for whatever reason that makes her even more clingy to him. And just so you know every explicitly hot woman in this series is either extremely attracted to Richard or is gay/incredibly evil. I guess maybe Cara is the only real exception? I Love You! fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Nov 27, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 10:26
|
|
|
Perestroika posted:The pacing of this whole book seems so bad. The beginnning is sorta inoffensive I guess what with the prerquisite introductions of the characters, but then they just kinda aimlessly gently caress around in the country without really accomplishing much of anything towards their final goal. Then there's torture fun time out of left field, and then the "climax" just sort of happens. Nothing about the final confrontation is informed by anything they've done in the rest of the book. Dick and Kahlan could have just surrendered to Rahl at the very beginning and it'd have gone the same way. One of the things that made me forgive the tone / voice / writing style of the first Harry Potter and actually enjoy the series is that Rowling set herself up to do this hard... Then had Hermoine end up with Ron instead. A good story, decent pacing and a complete lack of pain dildos and noncon bdsm helped too. I kinda feel guilty bringing Harry Potter up here. BravestOfTheLamps posted:I could only glance at evertything you posted most of the time because it was so embarassingly bad, but congratulations. Woah there it's way too early for Congratulations. We haven't even had demon sex yet, let alone some of the really hosed up poo poo later. I mean the Slyph? That's seriously hosed up.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 10:31
|
|
|
Sindai posted:Spoilers: every antagonist in the series is defeated by some combination of: It's very objectivist: the protagonist really is just better than everyone around him, and if other people tell him he can't do something? Well, that's just because they lack his piercing insight. There's a part of me that thinks there's a decent fantasy novel to be written where the protagonist is a Randian ubermensch, except the villain is also a Randian ubermensch. The confrontation is, like, 1/3 of the way in and it's finally enough for them to realise what colossal dickbags they've been. The rest of the book is them fighting against the power structures they created, for the benefit of the people they screwed over before.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 10:58
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:Let me see if I understand this. I'd mentally retconned it into something workable just with unreliable narrators. Someone can't lie when Confessed because they know it would disappoint the one they are in love with. Which just about makes sense. (Little things like lying to impress people are a bit too nuanced for this series). But Richard knew Kalhan and Rahl ( Darken in this case) was an arrogant dick. Richard would have disappointed Kalhan if he had told the truth in this case. So what saved the world was Dick thinking that a woman was a person and thinking about what she wanted when Darken just thought she was a thing to be used. In other words Feminism saved the world.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 11:20
|
|
|
I guess my thing is, literally the entire book seems to be entirely pointless. Absolutely nothing that occurred at any point mattered. It all boiled down to the good guys losing in the end, but then they win, because the protagonist couldn't lie, but totally did anyways. I know the book already has countless flaws, but "is entirely pointless" wasn't one I sincerely saw coming.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 13:12
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:I guess my thing is, literally the entire book seems to be entirely pointless. Absolutely nothing that occurred at any point mattered. It all boiled down to the good guys losing in the end, but then they win, because the protagonist couldn't lie, but totally did anyways. I know the book already has countless flaws, but "is entirely pointless" wasn't one I sincerely saw coming. That's pretty much a hallmark of the whole series. Something bad happens, people try to stop it, and then Richard pulls some random contrived solution out of his rear end that makes everything that came before largely meaningless. Sometimes "Richard pulls a contrived solution out of his rear end" is literally him just developing a brand new super power out of loving nowhere.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 13:34
|
|
|
Note that it still takes something like three books for Richard to nail Kahlan. And due to ~the rules of magic~ it doesn't count. I'm not sure that they ever bang again past that. Maybe to harness his RIGHTOUS FURY the Seeker has to be blue-balling. Also, OK. Richard is immune to Kahlan's power. But that power doesn't go away. So imagine this. quote:Loretta the maid walked slowly down the hallway, dusting, straightening hanging paintings that were crooked only to her stern gaze. Master Rahl, the Seeker of Truth, was back from one of his many travels, and she wanted everything to be perfect. In other words, every time they bang, her confessor's power is still going to fire.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 14:10
|
|
|
TheCenturion posted:I'm not sure that they ever bang again past that. At least once more, and it's super hosed up. (In fact, that the previous time "didn't count" is a plot point for the subsequent hosed uppedness.) That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Nov 27, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 15:10
|
|
|
Even the shittiest rag of a comic has things that happen earlier affect the ending, even if it's just "and that's why I can go super saiyan!" The entire ending to WFR is completely detached from the rest of the book so much that even the LOVE CONQUERS ALL bullshit doesn't even have any relevance, since Astley and Waifu's relationship is never explored at all beyond some 8th grade fawning near the beginning of the book when he doesn't know what she is.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 15:58
|
|
|
Plague of Hats posted:That's pretty much a hallmark of the whole series. Something bad happens, people try to stop it, and then Richard pulls some random contrived solution out of his rear end that makes everything that came before largely meaningless. Sometimes "Richard pulls a contrived solution out of his rear end" is literally him just developing a brand new super power out of loving nowhere. This feels like an echo of everyone keeping everyone else in the dark throughout the book.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 16:12
|
|
|
alarumklok posted:Even the shittiest rag of a comic has things that happen earlier affect the ending, even if it's just "and that's why I can go super saiyan!" The entire ending to WFR is completely detached from the rest of the book so much that even the LOVE CONQUERS ALL bullshit doesn't even have any relevance, since Astley and Waifu's relationship is never explored at all beyond some 8th grade fawning near the beginning of the book when he doesn't know what she is. And this is why I reject the author's reality and substitute my own here. (And after reading the first and being mildly appalled didn't pick up a second). There are two obvious callbacks that would have been at least a lampshade for allowing him to beat being forced to tell the truth. The first is as I mentioned actually knowing what Waifu would have wanted. The second is Denna's torture meaning he'd lived through something as bad. Either would have been obvious and worked.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 17:36
|
|
|
potatocubed posted:It's very objectivist: the protagonist really is just better than everyone around him, and if other people tell him he can't do something? Well, that's just because they lack his piercing insight. Actually there's one huge enormous problem with objectivism here, and the later books just blow it wide open: (major spoiler but doesn't happen for like 3-4 more books so if you don't plan to stick around that long, read this) The major plot point of later books, and I mean MAJOR, is based on a bizarre retcon that explains why Rahl's subjects are so unfailingly loyal: the Rahl dynasty has weaved an intricate spell granting powerful protection from mind-controlling magics in return for undying loyalty and all that garbage. It's why the Mord sith are so devoted to ol' Dick and why the soldiers and people basically throw themselves behind whoever the current Rahl is no matter how good/evil/stupid that person is. It's supposed to be used to justify Richard's sudden ascension to God-King while simultaneously removing some of the evil taint of Darken Rahl mindcontrolling all his citizens. It's used over and over in the coming books to prevent other sources of mind-control and coercion, because anyone who is "sworn to Rahl" and acknowledges him as their god-king is basically immune to whatever the gently caress is happening to them. Even other villains swear themselves to him in order to rules lawyer out of various situations. People can either swear themselves to Rick or be born into it. There are unwilling members of his little pact because it is the society they were born into. But it is always agreed that the common people benefit from it, because it is worth giving up a little bit of their autonomy to share in the greater strength. Service to Rick is considered to be A Good Thing in the novels. It binds people together, gives them strength, and lets them combat oppressive outsiders trying to take all their stuff. The D'harans are the good guys. This is literally Social Contract Theory in action. What the gently caress, Goodkind, are you even paying attention? BAD OBJECTIVIST, BAD I Love You! fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Nov 27, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 18:49
|
|
|
quote:You missed the end! Ah well, I was close! And I guess I missed the part about why Violet didn't feel the pain when using it. Pshh. Cheater way to give him an excuse to give a young girl what she "deserves". potatocubed posted:It's very objectivist: the protagonist really is just better than everyone around him, and if other people tell him he can't do something? Well, that's just because they lack his piercing insight. I would read that. At least it would be more interesting and probably not done to death already. Actually, it would be quite the palette cleanser after this lol.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 18:58
|
|
|
Happy Thanksgiving*! I don't even give a poo poo that this is multiple books away, this is still the absolutely most appropriate section of the series to quote today. I give you the Terry Goodkind Thanksgiving Special**.quote:Hissing, hackles lifting, the chicken's head rose. * American Thanksgiving. All other Thanksgivings are free to read this passage any other drat day they feel like. ** Some of you are going to notice I stole this directly from an old newsletter and to you I say "I'm not digging that book out for one loving joke when that page is right next to me".
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 19:34
|
|
|
I Love You! posted:Actually there's one huge enormous problem with objectivism here, and the later books just blow it wide open: (major spoiler but doesn't happen for like 3-4 more books so if you don't plan to stick around that long, read this) The major plot point of later books, and I mean MAJOR, is based on a bizarre retcon that explains why Rahl's subjects are so unfailingly loyal: the Rahl dynasty has weaved an intricate spell granting powerful protection from mind-controlling magics in return for undying loyalty and all that garbage. It's why the Mord sith are so devoted to ol' Dick and why the soldiers and people basically throw themselves behind whoever the current Rahl is no matter how good/evil/stupid that person is. It's supposed to be used to justify Richard's sudden ascension to God-King while simultaneously removing some of the evil taint of Darken Rahl mindcontrolling all his citizens. Nah, it's actually perfectly good Objectivism. Not everyone is a ubermensch. Most people are weak idiots, and if they would just know their place and dedicate themselves to the ubermensch, society would be just fine. See the (IIRC black) doorman and train engineer characters from AS for examples of untermensch who are happy because they know their place is to serve Dagny and do her bidding.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 19:54
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:Nah, it's actually perfectly good Objectivism. Not everyone is a ubermensch. Most people are weak idiots, and if they would just know their place and dedicate themselves to the ubermensch, society would be just fine. See the (IIRC black) doorman and train engineer characters from AS for examples of untermensch who are happy because they know their place is to serve Dagny and do her bidding. I guess that's true with purely Randian Objectivism, though modern popular objectivism tends to rail against social contract theory as if it is the one true evil.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 19:59
|
|
|
Any time people say someone should know their place, I always think of this... http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hhrwl
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 20:36
|
|
|
I Love You! posted:I guess that's true with purely Randian Objectivism, though modern popular objectivism tends to rail against social contract theory as if it is the one true evil. Well it's an idiot "philosophy" that falls apart under its own weight. Two inherent problems cause this shift. One, no adherent believes himself to be anything but the ubermensch. Thus, anything that restricts his behavior is a sin. And two, the "Social Contract" as a popularly understood concept must mean all social contracts of any kind because A=A and nuance does not exist.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 20:52
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:Nah, it's actually perfectly good Objectivism. Not everyone is a ubermensch. Most people are weak idiots, and if they would just know their place and dedicate themselves to the ubermensch, society would be just fine. See the (IIRC black) doorman and train engineer characters from AS for examples of untermensch who are happy because they know their place is to serve Dagny and do her bidding. Yeah, that's not a social contract, though. That's just the help knowing it's place. Both are aristocratic: most libertarians are monarchists; Goodkind's streak of poorly thought out libertarianism just has a streak of noblesse oblige to it. Like D'Hara's ruler literally has Spell-Like Ability (As Wizard 20): Establish and Maintain Social Contract.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2014 21:10
|
|
|
Objectivism isn't the only thing Goodkind doesn't seem to understand and can't convey. After going over this in my mind I did finally figure out how I missed so much of this reading it the first time. Goodkind villains aren't socialists. Oh, they spout socialist propaganda all day, but they don't live the party line. It's like if you had a story where a mob goon shakes down a convenience store for protection money, then claim that your story is a cutting indictment of insurance. Not insurance scams, or corporate corruption in insurance companies, just insurance as a concept. Except the mob goon doesn't have anything to do with insurance and nobody in the situation thinks he does. It would be one thing if Goodkind's point was that these governments inevitably lead to corruption or something, but it's not. It's just Goodkind being an idiot.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 02:44
|
|
|
To shallow readers Goodkind's work is good at slowly hand holding them into making self congratulatory discoveries about how superior they feel to other people. Outside of the philosophy there's just so much that's loving bad about the series that makes me feel like an idiot for reading and sort of enjoying these books as a teenager. There's almost fragments of potential (mostly Zedd) which fortunately came out great in the TV show.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 02:48
|
|
|
In fairness, I suspect Goodkind would say that no socialist toes the party line of socialism, that it is all a sham to control people something something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 02:52
|
|
|
To my horror, I apparently have five of the books in the series. I also have the entire Deathstalker book series. I may have had bad taste in books during high school.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 05:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 20:34 |
|
|
Hope you enjoyed Zedd and Richard interacting, because it never happens again because it's established that Zedd could unlock all of Richard's powers in like an afternoon so the narrative requires they be hundreds of miles apart at all times
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2014 06:04
|
|