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apple posted:Can someone just do a summary of the whole convenience store thing? List what's shown in all of the angles, including what's clear and what's ambiguous. List the statements made by Dorian Johnson, and what sources say that Wilson knew (or didn't know) about the alleged robbery. It's honestly a bit hard to follow, though I can see it being a possibility that Dorian Johnson's testimony is trying to cover his rear end, making it some weird case of prisoner's dilemma depending on what actually happened at the store. Initially the story was Wilson didn't know. Wilson's Grand Jury testimony indicates a "I stopped them for jaywalking, but when I saw the cigarillos in his hands I KNEW!" Dorian Johnson's Grand Jury testimony pretty much indicates it was theft: Grand Jury Volume 4: p. 31: "..never came up that he didn't have any money. I had money, I had money in my pocket. It never came up he didn't have any money..." p. 32: Brown asks for a box of Cigarillos, leans forward to grab them before handing the box to Johnson. p. 33: "Now, at this time I still didn't think that he was not going to pay for them..." [...] "It wasn't until he went back the second time and grabbed a handful of the single Cigarillos. Now first he grabbed the box and the store clerk did nothing, this time he was going back to grab the single Cigarillos. As he was coming back, the store clerk did a late response and he swung at his hand, but he missed because he was so late, he smacked the counter." p. 34: (relating to the clerk swinging) "he kind of hit the top of some Cigarillos, which made some of them fall. And Big Mike turned to pick them up, and as he picked those up, he faced towards the door, that's when I knew okay, something is not right here. I didn't see, from where I was standing, I didn't see money get transferred to the store clerk and that's why I sat the box of Cigarillos back on the counter. I've been to the store a lot of times."
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Nov 28, 2014 00:36
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fknlo posted:It's weird how the police immediately released video of Brown robbing the store and pushing the clerk but haven't followed it up with anything. Nothing from the clerk, no charges for Brown's friend, nothing. Shouldn't Johnson be in jail for assisting Brown in his vicious Hulkamania beatdown of the infant officer Wilson as well? The grand jury didn't have Stupid as a possible charge.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:36
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One question I still have about this is, are there any physical requirements for an argument that you feel threatened enough by an unarmed guy that you have to shoot them? Like that they are x pounds heavier or x inches taller, or something like that? Or is it merely your perception of how scary they were at that time, and nothing else? My brain still can't accept that the law says its ok to shoot unarmed people, in any situation. I mean, I can read the law and see it right there, but on a deeper level I can't give up the idea that it's bullshit. I was thinking the same thing all through the Martin case too.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:43
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Samurai Sanders posted:One question I still have about this is, are there any physical requirements for an argument that you feel threatened enough by an unarmed guy that you have to shoot them? Like that they are x pounds heavier or x inches taller, or something like that? Or is it merely your perception of how scary they were at that time, and nothing else? well what if it's like evil bruce lee or somehitng and theres a bomb you need to stop and
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Nov 28, 2014 00:46
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Samurai Sanders posted:One question I still have about this is, are there any physical requirements for an argument that you feel threatened enough by an unarmed guy that you have to shoot them? Like that they are x pounds heavier or x inches taller, or something like that? Or is it merely your perception of how scary they were at that time, and nothing else? Don't worry, we'll ask questions after the shooting to determine that.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:48
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Cuntpunch posted:Initially the story was Wilson didn't know. Thanks! There's still something that confuses me though, people (like Majorian) are saying that Michael Brown hands something to the cashier, can someone point out to where this happens in the surveillance footage? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQsOBXCQlDg
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Nov 28, 2014 00:48
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Samurai Sanders posted:One question I still have about this is, are there any physical requirements for an argument that you feel threatened enough by an unarmed guy that you have to shoot them? Like that they are x pounds heavier or x inches taller, or something like that? Or is it merely your perception of how scary they were at that time, and nothing else? As far as Virginia goes, a man is always considered armed against a woman when it comes to self defense shooting. There are no other guidelines so far as I'm aware.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:48
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More specifically, I can't shake the idea that laws like that were made by people who love guns and would prefer to err on the side of shooting people with them.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:49
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apple posted:Thanks! 24/25 seconds in, it looks like Wilson is handing something over the counter with his right hand. 35-ish seconds in, it looks like the clerk has money in his hand.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:50
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Samurai Sanders posted:One question I still have about this is, are there any physical requirements for an argument that you feel threatened enough by an unarmed guy that you have to shoot them? Like that they are x pounds heavier or x inches taller, or something like that? Or is it merely your perception of how scary they were at that time, and nothing else? Nope, as long as you "fear for your life" or whatever arbitrary requirement your state may have you can't lose a fight as long as you have your trusty six shooter at your side. Unless the other guy has a gun and you make him "fear for his life" first. So in about 10 years it'll be legal to shoot anyone who has any kind of interaction with you in any way.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:51
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Samurai Sanders posted:One question I still have about this is, are there any physical requirements for an argument that you feel threatened enough by an unarmed guy that you have to shoot them? Like that they are x pounds heavier or x inches taller, or something like that? Or is it merely your perception of how scary they were at that time, and nothing else? "He's comin' right for us!/I was in fear for my life!" has become the ultimate wild card for all the You don't even need to have a weapon anymore. The fact that you can use your legs to get closer to a cop and have hands, hands which can be used to kill - is all that seems to be needed anymore. Of course remember to throw in the obligatory animal noises or whatever else to the deceased to try and make them look something other than human being..
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Nov 28, 2014 00:52
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Samurai Sanders posted:My brain still can't accept that the law says its ok to shoot unarmed people, in any situation. You are a police officer openly carrying a gun. I walk up to you, land a few really good punches to your face, then try to grab your gun. You're saying that you would let a crazy person (because who else but a crazy person would attack a cop?) take your gun? Do you have a death wish? Out of all the nasty stuff police in the US have done, I can't believe the death of store-robbing criminal is the event that triggered riots.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:54
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My Lil Parachute posted:You are a police officer openly carrying a gun. I walk up to you, land a few really good punches to your face, then try to grab your gun. You're saying that you would let a crazy person (because who else but a crazy person would attack a cop?) take your gun? Do you have a death wish? really all physical contact with an officer of the law should end with death
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Nov 28, 2014 00:56
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I thought that cop gun holsters were designed specifically so that that situation wouldn't happen and it would have to be the cop who drew the gun before it could get into enemy hands. I was initially confused about this incident because I thought Brown had somehow been trying to get at Wilson's holstered gun but nope, Wilson drew it in the first place.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:57
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My Lil Parachute posted:Out of all the nasty stuff police in the US have done, I can't believe the death of store-robbing criminal is the event that triggered riots. Assuming that Michael Brown was, in fact, a store-robbing criminal, how exactly did Wilson know he was?
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Nov 28, 2014 00:57
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Majorian posted:Assuming that Michael Brown was, in fact, a store-robbing criminal, how exactly did Wilson know he was? Brown was black.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:59
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MariusLecter posted:Brown was black. and a hulk hogan
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Nov 28, 2014 00:59
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Samurai Sanders posted:One question I still have about this is, are there any physical requirements for an argument that you feel threatened enough by an unarmed guy that you have to shoot them? Like that they are x pounds heavier or x inches taller, or something like that? Or is it merely your perception of how scary they were at that time, and nothing else? There are occasional precedents where trained martial-artists and boxers are treated as armed perpetrators, but that obviously does not apply here. And it's not a formal thing so much as something a judge or jury can be asked to consider, on a case-by-case basis.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:59
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Majorian posted:Assuming that Michael Brown was, in fact, a store-robbing criminal, how exactly did Wilson know he was?
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Nov 28, 2014 01:00
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My Lil Parachute posted:That's not my point - I'm not defending Wilson. It just seems weird to me that a baby can get horrifically injured by a flashbang and no-one cares, people get shot in no-knock raids where the cops get the address wrong and no-one cares, but rob a store and pick a fight with a cop? Outrage. well those first two were just tragic accidents and probably from a few news cycles ago
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Nov 28, 2014 01:01
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My Lil Parachute posted:That's not my point - I'm not defending Wilson. It just seems weird to me that a baby can get horrifically injured by a flashbang and no-one cares, people get shot in no-knock raids where the cops get the address wrong and no-one cares, but rob a store and pick a fight with a cop? Outrage. PupsOfWar posted:There are occasional precedents where trained martial-artists and boxers are treated as armed perpetrators, but that obviously does not apply here. And it's not a formal thing so much as something a judge or jury can be asked to consider, on a case-by-case basis.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:01
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My Lil Parachute posted:You are a police officer openly carrying a gun. I walk up to you, land a few really good punches to your face, then try to grab your gun. You're saying that you would let a crazy person (because who else but a crazy person would attack a cop?) take your gun? Do you have a death wish? Case in point to what I just said - sadder yet that people will chomp at the bit to defend a cop's right to put you down if there's even a remote chance that you might be some nebulous threat. Pretty sure there's a number of safety mechanisms on holsters to help prevent things like this scenario from happening. Also lets just forget using mace on the crazy person, or a taser, or radioing for back up, this is life or death - that crazy person could easily summon the fury of Zeus himself and pancake your face with his fist. You're right. Because the world is a bad and scary place we should give police full authority to act as judge AND executioner. Having cops on the street thinking like that will make the world such a safer place.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:02
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My Lil Parachute posted:That's not my point - I'm not defending Wilson. It just seems weird to me that a baby can get horrifically injured by a flashbang and no-one cares, people get shot in no-knock raids where the cops get the address wrong and no-one cares, but get shot after robbing a store and picking a fight with a cop? Outrage. There's no consensus he 'picked a fight'. If you're trying to say Brown is *not* a victim of the same sort of abuse of police powers that your other examples are, you're horribly mistaken. You don't get to draw a line like that if you're being intellectually honest.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:04
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My Lil Parachute posted:That's not my point - I'm not defending Wilson. It just seems weird to me that a baby can get horrifically injured by a flashbang and no-one cares, people get shot in no-knock raids where the cops get the address wrong and no-one cares, but get shot after robbing a store and picking a fight with a cop? Outrage. people care because this act of police violence sparked some actual protests. that is literally the only reason.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:04
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Nah, guns are so easy to get out of holsters if you don't know how to do it that the two Boston bombers couldn't take the gun from the cop they killed.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:05
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Cuntpunch posted:There's no consensus he 'picked a fight'. If you're trying to say Brown is *not* a victim of the same sort of abuse of police powers that your other examples are, you're horribly mistaken. You don't get to draw a line like that if you're being intellectually honest. He definitely tried to fight the cop, which is suicide. That's why he died. Period.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:08
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My Lil Parachute posted:That's not my point - I'm not defending Wilson. It just seems weird to me that a baby can get horrifically injured by a flashbang and no-one cares, people get shot in no-knock raids where the cops get the address wrong and no-one cares, but rob a store and pick a fight with a cop? Outrage. Why are you expecting the causes of civil unrest to be graded on some sort of linear scale? They are, by nature, emotional. Media coverage and differing public interests will determine what emotionally involves a person more than something else. And to be fair, not everyone is focusing on racial issues. The over-militarization and violent carelessness of the national/local police force is also a major issue, though at least in the case of the Ferguson protests both race and police brutality are intertwined. Chelb fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 01:08
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Samurai Sanders posted:I thought that cop gun holsters were designed specifically so that that situation wouldn't happen and it would have to be the cop who drew the gun before it could get into enemy hands. I was initially confused about this incident because I thought Brown had somehow been trying to get at Wilson's holstered gun but nope, Wilson drew it in the first place. Duty holsters have what's called a "retention level" which is a measure of how hard it would be for an assailant to remove the gun from the holster. I don't know the specific differences between levels but generally pistol holsters have the button/snap/lock on the inside of the holster nearest to the wearer, as opposed to the outside where it could be snagged open easily. (From my limited experience shopping for and wearing a holster).
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Nov 28, 2014 01:09
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My Lil Parachute posted:You are a police officer openly carrying a gun. I walk up to you, land a few really good punches to your face, then try to grab your gun. You're saying that you would let a crazy person (because who else but a crazy person would attack a cop?) take your gun? Do you have a death wish? Maybe you should study history, look at the statistics and pay attention? Seriously, everything you mentioned is horrible, but we are talking scale, not individual incidents. This is not about M. Brown as much as it is about historic systemic racism and brutality towards a certain population. Think bigger.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:14
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:He definitely tried to fight the cop, which is suicide. That's why he died. Period. But then he stopped fighting and ran away. Is it OK to kill unarmed fleeing suspects? Tell me whether or not it's OK.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:15
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Majorian posted:24/25 seconds in, it looks like Wilson is handing something over the counter with his right hand. 35-ish seconds in, it looks like the clerk has money in his hand. You mean Dorian Johnson? Unless I'm missing something, that just looks like the box that Michael Brown handed him, he even testified: "... I sat the box of Cigarillos back on the counter." I can't make anything out that the store clerk is grabbing 35 seconds in. e: Also reminder that it was initially reported that this has nothing to do with the initial encounter between DW and MB, I just wanted to understand this series of events. apple fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 01:17
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Cuntpunch posted:There's no consensus he 'picked a fight'. Not obeying the officers orders to get out off the street and use the sidewalk is an act of aggression. Yes, he did pick a fight. First he didn't steal from the store, and now this? Holy poo poo D&D.  SedanChair posted:But then he stopped fighting and ran away. Is it OK to kill unarmed fleeing suspects? He wasn't shot from behind therefore the premise of your question is invalid to begin with. Again, SedenChair.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:19
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Pohl posted:Maybe you should study history, look at the statistics and pay attention? <sarcasm> Nah, man, you see, all African Americans are responsible for the actions of individual African Americans. If the blacks want to be treated with respect then maybe they all should be respectable all of the time. Jesus, how about come common sense? Pull up your pants for Christ's sake! Hell, look at the looting and rioting; surely that proves that all of the mistreatment and subjugation and profiling of blacks is retroactively justified throughout time! If they want to act like animals then they'll get treated like animals, after all! Also, that officer was just doing his job and it was perfectly legal and justifiable to shoot that kid, or any </sarcasm>
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Nov 28, 2014 01:20
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Vaall posted:Not obeying the officers orders to get out off the street and use the sidewalk is an act of aggression. GET OFF THE STREET GRANDMA 
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Nov 28, 2014 01:22
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Samurai Sanders posted:I have also sometimes wondered how this one caught on more than other cases of police doing poo poo to minorities that happen every day. I guess it's just the luck of the draw which one the media picks up in a big way? Growing up there, I can say that Ferguson is segregated internally in a way that most cities around St. Louis aren't. The tension/oppression there is worse, and a lot of the people living in Canfield Green are 2nd or 3rd gen refugees in a sense. Pruitt Igoe to Spanish Lake to Kinloch to Ferguson. This was a tipping point for the community, which got attention it wouldn't have otherwise commanded, and it spiraled out from there.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:23
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Pohl posted:Maybe you should study history, look at the statistics and pay attention? Symbols and picking your battles matter when trying to change things. Michael Brown is a horrible case to take a stand on. It ostracized those who you wanted to bring on board. Michael Brown's Mother and Step-Dad have self control issues (to put it lightly), the fires and looting tarnished any hope of mainstream support. The horrible abusive police response at the beginning (arresting a reporter in the McDonalds, Gassing a camera crew) distracted everyone from what a bad incident this was to take a stand on. Foma fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 01:24
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Vaall posted:Not obeying the officers orders to get out off the street and use the sidewalk is an act of aggression worthy of summary execution. Yes, he did pick a fight. First he didn't steal from the store, and now this? Holy poo poo D&D. I added the implied part you left out.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:24
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Foma posted:Symbols and pickings your battles matter when trying to change things. Michael Brown is a horrible case to take a stand on. It ostracized those who you wanted to bring on board. Michael Brown's Mother and Step-Dad have self control issues (to put it lightly), the fires and looting tarnished any hope of mainstream support. all black people need to do is leterally await the second coming of jesus and them politiely request that they be treated more equally in cociety
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Nov 28, 2014 01:26
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Dystram posted:I added the implied part you left out. No, the aggression started from disobeying the officer which unfortunately escalated into further violence that led to his death.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:27
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Vaall posted:No, the aggression started from disobeying the officer which unfortunately escalated into further violence that led to his death.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:28
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