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A lot of people are saying that this is essentially meaningless, but if the provision for dropping Arabic as an official language remains, there are some pretty loving serious implications for the State's democratic character.
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Nov 24, 2014 17:41
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Not really. A half-a-hundred things that already exist in law or practice are more serious implications. It's not like Jews learn Arabic or they aren't changing street names or that Arab education is equal to Hebrew in autonomy from the state or that you can study in Arabic in higher education in big state universities or anything. We're talking about an apartheid state. http://m.imgur.com/gallery/L86hXg4 DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 17:59
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I'm only familiar with "a national of country X" as bureaucratese for "citizen". You seem to be using "national" and "citizen" as different terms - what does "national" mean in that context? You occasionally use "Israeli" and "Jewish" interchangeably, which I assume is not your actual intention (e,g: "the same number for Israeli children") You're using a green Magen David as a representation of the Arab share of Knesset seats etc... ? Language: You need an "even though Arabic has the official status of etc etc" at the start of that section. Otherwise it comes off as confusing at best.
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Nov 24, 2014 18:26
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Actually (most) Jews do learn Arabic, well, there's a choice between Arabic and French in the 7th grade but most students go with Arabic. It's definitely doesn't receive as much focus as English where every Israeli student has to study English for 9 years starting at the 3rd grade culminating in a matriculation exam in the 12th grade. (I went with French, it was easier. I don't actually know any French).
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Nov 24, 2014 18:29
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Actually (most) Jews do learn Arabic, well, there's a choice between Arabic and French in the 7th grade but most students go with Arabic. It's definitely doesn't receive as much focus as English where every Israeli student has to study English for 9 years starting at the 3rd grade culminating in a matriculation exam in the 12th grade. Not sure if making sure everyone actually speaks Arabic would help, but it certainly couldn't hurt.
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Nov 24, 2014 18:33
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Well at least they dropped the pretense. Better than continuing the facade since it means plausible deniability is reduced, but it's still pretty worrying. The country as a whole seems to be radicalizing.
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Nov 24, 2014 19:00
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Yeah, dropping the facade suggests they no longer feel the need for cover or else simply don't care anymore. It certainly indicates the direction things are moving.
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Nov 25, 2014 00:22
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I don't hold out much hope of it amounting to much. The evidence of their discriminatory practices are already there for those willing to see.
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Nov 25, 2014 11:07
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I can't be arsed to collect links and post full articles but more and more poo poo gets flung at the fan on a daily basis around here, If I were more  I'd speculate that the Bibiocracy is trying to rile up the most moral people in the world into something quite horrible, in the past couple of days there are numerous reports about foiled terrorist plots such as assaulting Beitar Jerusalem's (a racist team with a racist fanbase, parts of which were involved in the Abu Khdeir lynching) stadium, another seemingly BS story was about Hamas terrists gunning for Avigdor Liberman's head during Protectective Edge, now there was a story about how some guy who died/was-murdered while working at a construction site was actually a terror victim even though the identity of the assailants is unknown.And of course, all the while the new "Law of Nationality" is making the rounds, where apparently the variant that was initially approved by the government freaked out every center-right member of Bibi's government to the point where he is now proposing a new more moderate version, still racist of course. At the same time the Israeli police and border police seem to have received orders to make life even more miserable for Palestinians living in Jerusalem as a couple of days ago an entire street was sprayed with the notorious 'skunk water' (video here: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=800302796677754&set=vb.271642229543816&type=2&theater). It's hard to guess whether this is just your run of the mill posturing and attempts at apartheid by attrition or if Bibi is planning something big, If I had to venture a guess it would seem like a semi serious expulsion in Jerusalem (a few hundreds, maybe more) is planned with words like 'a security buffer' being used as an excuse. Edit: Gaza, earlier today 
emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 17:04
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Dolash posted:Yeah, dropping the facade suggests they no longer feel the need for cover or else simply don't care anymore. It certainly indicates the direction things are moving. Could this be a good thing in the long run? That facade has been of critical importance to international support for the Israeli regime.
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Nov 27, 2014 17:32
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Could this be a good thing in the long run? That facade has been of critical importance to international support for the Israeli regime. No it hasn't. Of critical importance to international support has been American willingness to overlook the violence against Palestinians inside the occupied territories, which has little to do with laws inside Israel proper. Otherwise you'd have seen way more protests about Jewish-only roads, etc. The only thing that matters is the ability of western governments to close their eyes to direct violence, discriminatory laws that don't result in bodily harm have very little impact on that.
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Nov 27, 2014 18:14
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Could this be a good thing in the long run? That facade has been of critical importance to international support for the Israeli regime. Public opinion plays a pretty key role in this conflict so anything that influences that is relevant, so it could end up being an influence on a positive end. I would not call the event in and of itself good though, even when talking about the long-run as comes across as very off-putting. It's a bad thing which might happen to help in the long-run. It's just something that really niggles at me because I've come across similar viewpoints in other situations - socialists who cheer when the economy goes down the shitter and load of people loose there jobs because they think it will push us further towards a crisis of Capitalism or Theodor Herzl, the father of Zionism, who in private approved of anti-semitism because it pushed Jews further towards Zionist viewpoints.
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Nov 27, 2014 18:52
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team overhead smash posted:Public opinion plays a pretty key role in this conflict so anything that influences that is relevant, so it could end up being an influence on a positive end. To be fair, current Israeli leaders can barely contain their gloating when they talk up any antisemitic incident as a way to encourage Jews to come to Israel/provide it with public support with the Jewish community in Western countries.
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Nov 27, 2014 19:34
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botany posted:No it hasn't. Of critical importance to international support has been American willingness to overlook the violence against Palestinians inside the occupied territories, which has little to do with laws inside Israel proper. Otherwise you'd have seen way more protests about Jewish-only roads, etc. The only thing that matters is the ability of western governments to close their eyes to direct violence, discriminatory laws that don't result in bodily harm have very little impact on that. Jewish-only roads?
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Nov 27, 2014 19:35
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Darth Walrus posted:Jewish-only roads? "Israeli"-only.
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Nov 27, 2014 19:38
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Darth Walrus posted:Jewish-only roads? http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4353235,00.html quote:A video by B'Tselem shows the fence being erected and police preventing the passage of Palestinian pedestrians on the road. A Border Guard officer is seen directing a Palestinian man to the path, claiming that the paved road is intended "for Jews only".
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Nov 27, 2014 19:48
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Darth Walrus posted:Jewish-only roads? emanresu tnuocca posted:"Israeli"-only.  I posted it before, and it's in the OP, but a reminder is always useful (because holy poo poo just look at that loving map). All the roads that have blue borders are Israeli only. This includes a road from Jericho to Jordan, and a somewhat sizable chunk of a road along the Dead Sea (which notably has absolutely no Palestinian access currently).
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Nov 27, 2014 19:50
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emanresu tnuocca posted:"Israeli"-only. Doesn't an Israeli passport make the distinction whether you are Jewish or not?
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Nov 27, 2014 19:54
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GlennFinito posted:Doesn't an Israeli passport make the distinction whether you are Jewish or not? The passport doesn't, the ID card does.
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Nov 27, 2014 19:57
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Which forms of ID do you have to show at checkpoints to gain access to roads?
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Nov 27, 2014 20:03
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team overhead smash posted:Public opinion plays a pretty key role in this conflict so anything that influences that is relevant, so it could end up being an influence on a positive end. I wouldn't call this quite the same thing as accelerationism. As has been mentioned plenty of times above, the Israeli government has always had blantantly unfair and cruel policies; the openness and blatantness about it is the new factor at work here rather than any sort of new cruelty.
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Nov 27, 2014 20:17
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How does Gaza or the West Bank differ from the Warsaw (or other) ghetto at this point. Would it help or hinder Palestinians to start using that language or comparisons?
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Nov 28, 2014 00:44
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starkebn posted:How does Gaza or the West Bank differ from the Warsaw (or other) ghetto at this point. Would it help or hinder Palestinians to start using that language or comparisons?  quote:The official welcome by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of Pope Francis paled in importance to what would happen next as the pope traveled through the streets of Bethlehem and drove by the Aida refugee camp, which is adjacent to the 10-meter (33-foot) wall that Israel has erected, encircling Rachel’s Tomb deep inside Palestinian areas. For days before the visit, Palestinian youth and Israeli soldiers have been in constant battle. Two days prior to the visit, Israeli troops entered the Palestinian area and whitewashed the entire wall to prevent the pope from seeing the graffiti that has been filling it up. The night before the arrival of the pope, however, youth spray-painted new slogans, this time in English with the hope that as he drove by, the pope would learn about the aspirations of Palestinians to live in freedom. quote:Jordan was instrumental in helping the pontiff avoid entering Palestine through the controversial Israeli-controlled Jordan River bridge. Taking advantage of the peace treaty with Israel, Jordanians facilitated the wish of the Vatican for the pope and his entourage not to cross any Israeli military checkpoints, by providing military helicopters for transportation to Bethlehem. 
fade5 fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 01:07
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So it seems that Netanyahu is talking to the Haredi parties (Shas and United Torah Judaism) and wants a commitment from them to support him after the next elections. If that happens, he's going for early elections right now. If this works out he may head a government bereft of people like Lapid or Livni who are not 110% behind the explicitly racist stuff.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:19
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Absurd Alhazred posted:So it seems that Netanyahu is talking to the Haredi parties (Shas and United Torah Judaism) and wants a commitment from them to support him after the next elections. If that happens, he's going for early elections right now. So, basically form an even more extremist conservative government. Great.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:23
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CommieGIR posted:So, basically form an even more extremist conservative government. Great. That's what happens when folks attempt to incite a religious conflict: the moderates throw up their hands and go 'whelp, theres no hope for reaching even a bad deal with those people, better save up my dignitas for a better position after the crazies run themselves out of town'
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Nov 28, 2014 02:26
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whats a moderate?
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Nov 28, 2014 02:27
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My Imaginary GF posted:That's what happens when folks attempt to incite a religious conflict: the moderates throw up their hands and go 'whelp, theres no hope for reaching even a bad deal with those people, better save up my dignitas for a better position after the crazies run themselves out of town' .....yyeeeaeaaaahhhh, beccause 40 years of justifying settlement building and land seizures makes it the Palestinians fault. Those damned moderates. Take your Golda Meir references and go away.
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Nov 28, 2014 02:28
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down with slavery posted:whats a moderate? A mythical creature who gets attacked from the left for being a sociopath and from the right for being a race-traitor, communist coward.
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Nov 28, 2014 02:29
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My Imaginary GF posted:A mythical creature who gets attacked from the left for being a sociopath and from the right for being a race-traitor, communist coward. "Don't you see how much of an animal the Palestinians are? Obviously are Neo-Conservative values of settlement construction and disenfranchisement are JUSTFIED" CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 02:30
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Apartheid is never "moderate." Try again.
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Nov 28, 2014 02:34
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Israel is going to burn and it's all Bibi's fault.
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Nov 28, 2014 02:35
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down with slavery posted:whats a moderate? People like John Kerry, who slip and get appalled sometimes.
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Nov 28, 2014 02:35
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CommieGIR posted:"Don't you see how much of an animal the Palestinians are? Obviously are Neo-Conservative values of settlement construction and disenfranchisement is JUSTFIED" Attack from the left: 'The aim of Palestinian political developments should be to engender and reward Israeli power-sharing and inducement of leftist doves winning election' = "Palestinians are animals and settlements are awesome" Attack from the right: "Palestinians are animals and settlements are awesome" = 'The aim of Palestinian political developments should be to engender and reward Israeli power-sharing and inducement of leftist doves winning election' Moderate stance: 'The aim of Palestinian political developments should be to engender and reward Israeli power-sharing and inducement of leftist doves winning election' = 'The aim of Palestinian political developments should be to engender and reward Israeli power-sharing and inducement of leftist doves winning election'
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Nov 28, 2014 02:36
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My Imaginary GF posted:Attack from the left: Nope. Keep trying. Apartheid in no way allows for moderates to even have valid opinions. A state that specifically uses their power to seize territory over time and build settlements and shows NO promise of upholding anything they promise their colonized citizens is not conducive to moderates. So, hows that preemptive nuclear strike for Iran going?
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Nov 28, 2014 02:39
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Far-Right Conservatives: KILL ALL THE SUBHUMAN FILTH! WARGARBL! Conservatives: Steal their land and put them into ghettos. It's not like they had a flag. Moderates: Steal only some of their land: We got some overpopulation problems after all. Let's negotiate and never deliver. Left: Holy poo poo what the gently caress are we doing!?
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Nov 28, 2014 02:43
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MonsieurChoc posted:Far-Right Conservatives: KILL ALL THE SUBHUMAN FILTH! WARGARBL! Although I disagree with your imprecise use of terms, something like that. You don't enforce policies which make it easiest for the far right to win: you facilitate the victory of the left with your actions. Sometimes, that means its necessary to appease the moderates. Others, you have to give in to the conservatives. On very rare and special occasions, you live with the far right. Clearly, Palestinian actions are not very rare, howevery, they are very 'special' occasions.
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Nov 28, 2014 02:55
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My Imaginary GF posted:Although I disagree with your imprecise use of terms, something like that. You don't enforce policies which make it easiest for the far right to win: you facilitate the victory of the left with your actions. Sometimes, that means its necessary to appease the moderates. Others, you have to give in to the conservatives. On very rare and special occasions, you live with the far right. Didn't you advocate a two-thousand year plan for the Palestinian state, the way the Jews did for Israel? For what it's worth, it seems like every policy Palestinians can adopt empowers the right. Not resisting just increases the pace of the status quo, making the right's policies seem to bring peace, while resisting obviously rallies Israelis around the flag inevitably. There is no coherent successful Palestinian strategy here to be had. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 02:57
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starkebn posted:How does Gaza or the West Bank differ from the Warsaw (or other) ghetto at this point. Would it help or hinder Palestinians to start using that language or comparisons? No Dirlewanger Brigade. Yet. I think.
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Nov 28, 2014 03:01
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Panzeh posted:Didn't you advocate a two-thousand year plan for the Palestinian state, the way the Jews did for Israel? Yes, "perception of peace" is a necessity for populations to begin to elect non-far right folks. It takes time to achieve, and you need predictability with your actions. Palestinian 'resistance' is too unpredictable in its implementation, and thus fails at its stated and unstated objectives. The coherent strategy that is successful is to accept you've lost the round, fold, and wait for the cards to be re-shuffled before joining the next round.
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Nov 28, 2014 03:05
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