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repeating posted:Protests have literally never done a single thing. I can't tell if you are being serious or not, since this is the new D&D I assume you are being sarcastic. In America, in the last 2 decades I would wholeheartly say yes protests have not accomplished anything. Think back on the last big protests Occupy Wall Street - A lot of noise, nothing changed, no lasting effect. Anti-War Protests under Bush - I would say this had a negative effect, reasonable people were grouped in with the idiot element and dismissed. Anti-Globalization during the G8 Summits - Kicked off the public turning against protests and kids who just wanted to bust up a Starbucks, also lead to a lot of police militarization. Thanks for that! How effective was that at stopping or slowing globalization? Foma fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 08:11
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Iowa Snow King posted:Man, when you find out people are saying petty theft justifies summary execution you're gonna laugh your fuckin' head off Hey, maybe he's a nice person who just had a bad day, or was just a bit rude. Also, you're now calling it a summary execution? Like the cop ordered him to his knees then calmly shot him in the back of the head? spacetoaster fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 08:12
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spacetoaster posted:Hey, maybe he's a nice person who just had a bad day, or was just a bit rude. I think you're really missing the point of that post, spacetoaster. What level of criminal activity do you think justifies an expeditious death? I'm assuming that your answer to that includes robbery.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:13
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Pomp posted:"Please don't destroy some property over two black people killed by police a week Won't someone think of the inanimate objects?
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Nov 28, 2014 08:14
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" - white people
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Don't worry Foma, young black boys are learning your lessons well.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:16
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SedanChair posted:Don't worry Foma, young black boys are learning your lessons well. I saw this I think the day before yesterday and it broke my heart, too.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:17
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SedanChair posted:Don't worry Foma, young black boys are learning your lessons well. You seem to just want to snipe and snark, not actually discuss anything.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:19
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Rollofthedice posted:I think you're really missing the point of that post, spacetoaster. I have never said anything like that. If you're mad at other posters, or projecting (you have already posted your assumptions based on nothing), stop it. I'm just amazed that people think that committing serious crime(s) is just a case of a nice guy having a bad moment. As to my personal opinion about what justifies expeditious death? Trying to kill or seriously injure a person who isn't a threat to you or anyone else. And I mean this generally. I'm having trouble cutting through the BS on this case because we have people on one side claiming that a man was summarily executed by this cop and others saying there was some kind of drugged up superman intent on murdering the cop.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:20
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Foma posted:You seem to just want to snipe and snark, not actually discuss anything. What? He's agreeing with you, right? He doesn't want to cause you any trouble.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:21
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Foma posted:You seem to just want to snipe and snark, not actually discuss anything. Wait, are you actually arguing in good faith? I jumped to this page and assumed you were part of the parade of trolls, but I guess you're just dumb?
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Nov 28, 2014 08:24
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Foma posted:You seem to just want to snipe and snark, not actually discuss anything. oh no not in the forum for debate and discussion what will we do?
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Nov 28, 2014 08:24
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spacetoaster posted:I have never said anything like that. If you're mad at other posters, or projecting (you have already posted your assumptions based on nothing), stop it. I'm just amazed that people think that committing serious crime(s) is just a case of a nice guy having a bad moment. I'm sorry for misinterpreting you, and I now understand and even sort of agree! But I'm also not sure whether that's an important point to be making or not.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:31
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Everyday Lurker posted:So we've run into the Claudette Colvin problem - a flawed character eventually dismissed in favor of Rosa Parks because she wasn't the perfect symbol to rally around. Mike Brown's suspected theft of a few cigarillos not only disqualifies him from being rallied around, but it also justifies Darren Wilson's eventual actions. I'm seriously at a loss about why John Crawford got shot down while doing literally nothing wrong, with video footage of the whole thing that could not be taken as him being in any way threatening to anybody, and hardly a whisper was made about it. He wasn't smoking pot, hadn't shoved around walmart employees on tape, didn't get in a fistfight with any cops, there's nothing for anyone to point at and say, 'Well he probably shared some responsibility...' John Crawford's shooting is a loving slam-dunk for anyone wanting to highlight the wrongs of the police in dealing with minorities. You could not ask for a more direct and concise situation. But instead, people are rallying around a murky as gently caress deal with Brown with no recordings, contradictory witnesses, evidence on the scene supporting the cop's account that he was moving towards the cop while being shot, and pot in his system just for the 'His judgment was obviously impaired' icing on the cake. That will go nowhere. The people who believe that Brown picked a fight with an H&K and paid the price for being stupid are not ever going to revise their opinion no matter how many protests happen, and there's not going to be any evidence to sway them. They're just going to dig in harder while the looting 'proves' to them that blacks are all about looting and burning poo poo while trying to claim that their dead store-robbing cop-punching reefer madness thugs were perfect sweet angels. It's a waste of time and energy to pursue Wilson at this point. People should be allocating their effort to seeing the cops who gunned down Crawford having to take responsibility for their actions.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:35
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spacetoaster posted:Yep, I'm pretty stupid (BTW I will stop saying he choked the clerk and just say assaulted). Why say assault when you can say shove, or forcefully shoved aside, or even violently shoved? One is more descriptive and accurate than the other. There's literally no reason to say "assault" instead of "shove" unless you want to intentionally muddy the waters and use the most incendiary language. And you very obviously do, or else you wouldn't have made up "choking" out of thin air, because no one reasonably would call a shove that touches someones neck and upper body a "choke". So no, I'm not gonna use your language because it's dumb exaggerated bullshit you're merely parroting said by someone smarter and more cynical than you. It's like "strong arm robbery". There's literally no reason to use that term except it sounds more violent, the general public didn't know what a loving "strong arm robbery" was before Ferguson, and it doesn't describe what happened. Brown tried to shoplift. The clerk/owner came at him to try and stop him leaving, touched Brown, who shoved the guy aside, then threateningly walked towards him for a second as if to say "don't gently caress with me". That's a description, not "he engaged in an assault and a strong arm robbery", which is basically jargony bullshit you have no business saying if you're not a cop or an attorney or pretending to be one. It's irrelevant whether Brown is a "nice person". He was a person with a family and people that cared about him and a decently promising future, whose life has weight under the law. He also did not have a criminal record. It's an asinine question, that betrays a desire to smear the victim. The repercussions for having a "bad day" are to face the legal system. If someone snaps and commits assault and battery, then they face assault and battery charges. The whole point of a just legal system is to treat "bad people" fairly. Periodiko fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 08:35
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Ernie Muppari posted:oh no not in the forum for debate and discussion No-content post? On a serious note, I'd like to mention some of the details of the case. Let me know if any of these are disputed: ~Mike Brown had a confrontation with the clerk at the store. It's not entirely clear what actually happened because there's no audio, and Dorian Johnson doesn't appear to be the most reliable witness ever. ~Darren Wilson was part of a police department disbanded for misconduct ~Choking and pushing are just a wee bit different ~The timeline Wilson describes does not match the reality of the timing of the shots, per the online chat grab with the shots in the background audio ~Wilson felt like a "5 year old" in the grip of the evil Balrog Mike Brown ~Wilson asked himself specifically "Can I legally shoot him?" ~Brown was a human being who wasn't perfect ~Wilson is not an inhuman monster. He's a product of police training that is waaaaaaaaay off-base. They trained him to operate exactly as he did. ~Apparently there is a lack of gun maintenance among American cops. ~Brown was either charging at Wilson like a man on fire, stopped, or falling to the ground, mortally injured, when the fatal shot was fired. You don't get shot in the top of the skull while running away.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:36
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Brown wasn't hulking through the shots, Wilson is just a scrub who didn't realize Brown had the meter for an EX Dash Punch.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:40
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Rollofthedice posted:I'm sorry for misinterpreting you, and I now understand and even sort of agree! It's not THAT important, but I think it is a little bit relevant. There is a guy who was killed, hyperbole and rhetoric aren't really going to advance the discussion. Unless it's all ironic. 
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Nov 28, 2014 08:41
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Valatar posted:I'm seriously at a loss about why John Crawford got shot down while doing literally nothing wrong, with video footage of the whole thing that could not be taken as him being in any way threatening to anybody, and hardly a whisper was made about it. He wasn't smoking pot, hadn't shoved around walmart employees on tape, didn't get in a fistfight with any cops, there's nothing for anyone to point at and say, 'Well he probably shared some responsibility...' It's a mistake to think protests like happened in Ferguson are only about one incident. It's about a community that lost total faith in the people who were supposed to be policing it long before the straw broke the camel's back.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:41
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spacetoaster posted:Thank you for the compliment, but no, I'm not a perfect person. Very convenient to make that accusation when the perpetrator was fatally gunned down before said charges could actually be filed against him.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:43
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Periodiko posted:Why say assault when you can say shove, or forcefully shoved aside, or even violently shoved? One is more descriptive and accurate than the other. There's literally no reason to say "assault" instead of "shove" unless you want to intentionally muddy the waters and use the most incendiary language. And you very obviously do, or else you wouldn't have made up "choking" out of thin air, because no one reasonably would call a shove that touches someones neck and upper body a "choke". So no, I'm not gonna use your language because it's dumb exaggerated bullshit you're merely parroting said by someone smarter and more cynical than you. Actually, I used the word assault because that's an actual legal term that applies. I thought it would clear things up. The choking wasn't out of thin air, it was in somebodies previous post and I really shouldn't use gifs to corroborate stuff and I admitted my error and changed it. But hey, you're smarter than me and obviously more cynical so good for you. 
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Nov 28, 2014 08:46
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repeating posted:Protests have literally never done a single thing. How does it feel to be so stupid?
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Nov 28, 2014 08:46
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Pohl posted:How does it feel to be so stupid? How does it feel to not get such an obvious joke? Calm yourself.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:49
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repeating posted:How does it feel to not get such an obvious joke? Calm yourself. I just realized that, sorry. I was going to edit but you beat me to it.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:51
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repeating posted:~Wilson is not an inhuman monster. He's a product of police training that is waaaaaaaaay off-base. They trained him to operate exactly as he did. Speaking only to these two, my opinion is that Wilson panicked rather than behaved in any particular trained fashion. I think he was used to people just doing whatever he said because of his being a cop, was caught off-guard by someone willing to punch him, and promptly lost his poo poo in pants-peeing terror. The adrenaline dump at suddenly finding yourself in a fight makes people do stupid things, and while you'd think someone handed a gun by the government and told they can use it would have undergone some training at dealing with the effects of an unexpected confrontation, that really doesn't seem to be the case with cops. They're not nearly sufficiently trained on how to keep cool when things go to hell, or at least most of them aren't. As for the second, there's a somewhat scary lack of marksmanship among cops too. The local department only has to qualify on a firing range once a year. The fact that Wilson had to empty his magazine into someone who was moving towards him in a straight line to get a lucky shot to the head really illustrates that fact. Many cops are not proficient with their sidearms, and that's really not good if you happen to be a bystander when one decides to start spraying bullets.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:51
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beatlegs posted:Very convenient to make that accusation when the perpetrator was fatally gunned down before said charges could actually be filed against him. I guess it's possible that Brown was just hanging out in that store and didn't do anything. But you did just refer to him a the "perpetrator". beatlegs posted:Yeah, it's funny how Brown's offenses justified his execution by cop, yet his accomplice is allowed to walk the streets a free man. But what offenses are you talking about? Accomplice to what, exactly? beatlegs posted:Oh so you're one of those perfect people who have never done a rude or lovely thing in their life eh? And what rude and lovely things are you thinking brown did?
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Nov 28, 2014 08:52
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FuriousxGeorge posted:It's a mistake to think protests like happened in Ferguson are only about one incident. It's about a community that lost total faith in the people who were supposed to be policing it long before the straw broke the camel's back. This is true, you raise a good point. I was speaking more of the national scene than the local scene; the people in Ferguson have a pretty clear reason to be pissed about the local police given their track record.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:53
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spacetoaster posted:Actually, I used the word assault because that's an actual legal term that applies. I thought it would clear things up. He assaulted the shop keeper but he obviously wasn't trying to kill him. Can we just keep it real? He hosed up the shopkeepers day, but in all honesty, he did not hurt him. This shouldn't even be a topic of conversation unless we are talking about the cop knowing what happened.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:55
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Pohl posted:He assaulted the shop keeper but he obviously wasn't trying to kill him. Agreed. Okay, didn't the cop know about the robbery? My understanding from the timeline is that the call for the robbery and a description of brown went out over the radio and wilson heard it.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:57
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spacetoaster posted:Agreed. The police statement where they revealed the robbery came several days after the murder, when they had plenty of time to get their story straight, and they still denied that Wilson connected Brown to the robbery.
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Nov 28, 2014 09:00
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spacetoaster posted:Agreed. that's in question, because in the initial weeks the cops claimed wilson had no knowledge of the robbery. they changed their story after a couple of weeks and really didn't give an explanation.
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Nov 28, 2014 09:02
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Condiv posted:that's in question, because in the initial weeks the cops claimed wilson had no knowledge of the robbery. they changed their story after a couple of weeks and really didn't give an explanation. Okay, but that's a direct conflict with the live announcement they made when the grand jury was done. I watched the thing and the guy gave a detailed timeline. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E-6UcOkV1U at 12:00 is when the timeline starts
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Nov 28, 2014 09:07
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Santa is giving Ferguson an executive holiday order declaring everyone - cop, citizen, whatever - officially a 'Good Person' and will make it rain with consumer goods and we should all follow the example of Jesus and do the same. AGC. 
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Nov 28, 2014 09:07
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Valatar posted:John Crawford's shooting is a loving slam-dunk for anyone wanting to highlight the wrongs of the police in dealing with minorities. You could not ask for a more direct and concise situation. But instead, people are rallying around a murky as gently caress deal with Brown with no recordings, contradictory witnesses, evidence on the scene supporting the cop's account that he was moving towards the cop while being shot, and pot in his system just for the 'His judgment was obviously impaired' icing on the cake. You don't get to pick which straw breaks the camel's back. Besides, it happened in a place that's been a literal tinderbox for an explosion decades in the making.
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Nov 28, 2014 09:08
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spacetoaster posted:Okay, but that's a direct conflict with the live announcement they made when the grand jury was done. I watched the thing and the guy gave a detailed timeline. We don't know. What I do know is that press conference was a disaster and a leading cause to the riots. Seriously, it was bad bad bad, and the guy talked forever. I don't believe anything he said, which is where we might find debate.
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Nov 28, 2014 09:19
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Oh those hot-headed minorities, why can't they just cough up the dough for acceptable voter ID, verify their names haven't been purged from voter rolls, ignore suppressive propaganda littering their neighborhoods and risk getting fired missing work to vote? Well, I mean the ones whose right to vote haven't already been taken away because they were hit with felony charges for the 2 grams of weed in their center console discovered during a speculative search after a traffic stop for failure to yield.
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Nov 28, 2014 09:41
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Pomp posted:The police statement where they revealed the robbery came several days after the murder, when they had plenty of time to get their story straight, and they still denied that Wilson connected Brown to the robbery. There's a lot of interesting information in the comprehensive report of the investigation, which people should read. Relevant, earlier in the report, the investigators figure on a time of 12:02 for the shooting. quote:The following information relates to the Saint Louis County Police Department's investigation of a homicide that occurred on Saturday, August 9, 2014 at approximately 12:02 near 2947 Canfield Drive, in the City of Ferguson, within Saint Louis County, Missouri. There are two tracks discussed with actual time stamps related to the separate radio traffic: quote:Based on these times, it appeared the time associated with the Ferguson Police Department's radio system was running approximately 19 minutes and 37 seconds fast. Everything happened in probably less than a minute, according to Wilson's testimony and scrutiny by investigators.
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Nov 28, 2014 09:43
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For those who are claiming that Michael Brown is No Angel, etc., what crimes would you claim aren't worth the death penalty?
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Nov 28, 2014 10:05
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spacetoaster posted:I'm having trouble cutting through the BS on this case because we have people on one side claiming that a man was summarily executed by this cop and others saying there was some kind of drugged up superman intent on murdering the cop. If it were you, would you charge someone like a bull? If you have, what were you on to do that? Does Marijuana cause people to behave the way Officer Wilson says? I mean the only people who do/did think like that were people like Harry Aslinger who would say quote:“If the hideous monster Frankenstein came face to face with the monster marihuana, he would drop dead of fright.”
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Nov 28, 2014 10:10
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Broken Loose posted:For those who are claiming that Michael Brown is No Angel, etc., what crimes would you claim aren't worth the death penalty? Crimes committed by white people.
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Nov 28, 2014 10:10
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FAUXTON posted:Crimes committed by white people. At least crimes committed for white people.
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Nov 28, 2014 10:13
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