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AshB posted:I think the idea is that stories like Frozen are more broadly about accepting yourself for who you are. It's a very general theme that can be applied to specific things like homosexuality, race, or what have you. But some people extrapolate a more specific theme, such as coming out as a homosexual. They impose that specific interpretation as the definitive meaning of the fictional work, even when there is virtually no evidence the work of fiction is meant to show that specific an idea. That's the problem I'm seeing. For what it's worth, I would personally love to see LGBTQ characters on kids shows, but I really think it's a reach to call Korra or Frozen an example of it.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:13
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AshB posted:I think the idea is that stories like Frozen are more broadly about accepting yourself for who you are. It's a very general theme that can be applied to specific things like homosexuality, race, or what have you. But some people extrapolate a more specific theme, such as coming out as a homosexual. They impose that specific interpretation as the definitive meaning of the fictional work, even when there is virtually no evidence the work of fiction is meant to show that specific an idea. That's the problem I'm seeing. For what it's worth, I would personally love to see LGBTQ characters on kids shows, but I really think it's a reach to call Korra or Frozen an example of it. That is sort of the point of fictional work though. What you read and take away from it. The author may say they intended something but the author's intention doesn't define the sole meaning of the work. Your argument is that there is a sole correct interpretation of fiction which isn't how it works. There are plenty of arguments to be made for, again, Frozen. Not even just broad ones but fairly specific ones. They may not be your interpretation but that is kind of point of analyzing fiction. Not all interpretations are equally valid but multiple interpretations are also not invalid. There are viable readings for Frozen as a broad and general work. There are also plenty of pretty well-reasoned arguments that it is fairly specifically about homosexuality. Trying to act like people who hold that interpretation are 'flawed' or 'trying too hard' or whatever is pretty ridiculous. You could just as easily argue that your broad and general interpretation is too shallow and you're not looking close enough. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 01:16
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thexerox123 posted:It's probably because of the lovely thread.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:21
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Is the four part finale airing over four weeks then?
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Nov 28, 2014 01:35
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The real reason, for what it's worth, is that this thread is really easy to troll. I'm going to guess most of you who don't otherwise frequent TV IV aren't familiar with our resident shitposters, and there's enough people who take this poo poo way too seriously to completely derail things at the slightest cue.PriorMarcus posted:Is the four part finale airing over four weeks then? The show ends on the 19th, which means we're getting two episodes that week. Arist fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 01:35
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Another video interview of Mike and Bryan, for those interested.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:44
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MrAristocrates posted:The real reason, for what it's worth, is that this thread is really easy to troll. I'm going to guess most of you who don't otherwise frequent TV IV aren't familiar with our resident shitposters, and there's enough people who take this poo poo way too seriously to completely derail things at the slightest cue. Additionally, its a high traffic thread about a children's cartoon. Its not like we're discussing War and Peace, here. Korra is a pretty simple show and there's only so much to unravel after every episode. That want of material to discuss leads people to over analyze every little detail to the point of absurdity (hence the gay discussion). There's only so many times you can discuss Kuivra without going, "well maybe she's not such a bad guy after all, because maybe she's gay."
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Nov 28, 2014 01:53
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ImpAtom posted:That is sort of the point of fictional work though. What you read and take away from it. The author may say they intended something but the author's intention doesn't define the sole meaning of the work. I'm not really familiar with the arguments surrounding Frozen, so I won't waste time arguing about it. The distinction I'd draw is the objective meaning versus subjective meanings of a fictional work. The objective meaning is what the creator intended their work to mean, and there is really no denying that. I think most people are concerned with the objective meaning. Subjective meanings are everyone else's interpretations of the work, and nobody has to agree with that interpretation. A good analysis would weigh the facts in favor or against an interpretation, but holy gently caress who gives a crap about Korra shipping. AshB fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 01:59
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The objective meaning of a work isn't what the author intended it to mean because that isn't really a consistent standard. An author can intend to write something meaning one thing and not succeed at making it actually mean that thing, for instance. When we take in a text, we don't have the author's notes by the side telling us, "and, by the way, I intended this segment to mean this". We can only read what's on the page - or view what's on the screen - and interpret it based on what is there. Easy example: Ray Bradbury didn't consider Fahrenheit 451 to be about the dangers of information suppression and erasure of radical thought by a state seeking to cement its control over the people, but about the dangers of mass media and erasure of culture by the hectoring of minority interest groups. This really isn't as manifest in the text of the book as the former interpretation, though! Basically there's no such thing as an 'objective' reading of a work, except insofar as various subjective readings can be made more steady by being supported with evidence from the work.
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Nov 28, 2014 02:24
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I guess that's a fair point. But when it comes to the issue of whether two fictional characters are romantically interested, I think there very well could be an objective truth, and I would very much defer to the creators' intent. Now, the creators haven't expressed their intent either way when it comes to Korra, so I think the more reasonable thing to do would be to not reach conclusions until the series is over (if ever).
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Nov 28, 2014 02:32
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Oh, yeah, for sure, it'll never happen. But gay stuff is one of the most common subtextual readings to make because, historically, there have been a lot of gay themes in subtext, placed there quite intentionally, because hey, where else could you put them? You couldn't just put it out right there in the work, because you wouldn't be allowed to, or you'd get in trouble. Things have improved, but even now, it would be a super bold, trailblazing move to stick a gay romance in a cartoon for kids, and it's still common to have gay themes be hinted at or implied rather than outright stated on the screen. That in mind, it's a natural move to look at subtext for gay themes: that's where they've lived in media for years and years, and in certain branches of media it's where they still are. I'm not particularly into Korra and Asami being together or anything, but there's enough there to support a reading where one of them has a crush, if nothing else. To me that seems pretty harmless.
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Nov 28, 2014 02:45
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This thread is bad but it's still better than any other place to discuss Korra. ...What the hell is wrong with the Avatar fanbase?
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Nov 28, 2014 10:14
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The Sharmat posted:This thread is bad but it's still better than any other place to discuss Korra. Adults watching children's cartoons
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Nov 28, 2014 10:23
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So we got to see Zaheer again. Bolin is super annoying but the episode felt like finale setup. So we know at least one of the plot lines is off to Zaofu. I doubt we'll see the Fire Nation again  Or Kyoshi Island.
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Nov 28, 2014 10:34
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Andrew_1985 posted:Bolin is super annoying but the episode felt like finale setup. I felt Bolin was just doing things the way he knows how to and it was admirable, it just took him a few tries to figure out the right thing to do and say, but then I have always been a Bolin fan so of course I'll defend him Good episode, nice to see Zaheer again and it was good to finally hear Zuko's daughter speak after being onscreen many times already
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Nov 28, 2014 10:40
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HoneyBoy posted:Adults watching children's cartoons I've seen this plenty of times and it's never quite this obnoxious. See: 1/3rd of the discussion of Korra most places being generated by people who absolutely hate the show but are still watching it four seasons in. Episode 9 spoilers I was surprised that it was every other leader going all Chamberlain in regards to Kuvira and not Raiko
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Nov 28, 2014 10:50
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The Sharmat posted:This thread is bad but it's still better than any other place to discuss Korra. Well, it's a mild stage of shipping wars. I can't explain the people who say Frozen is specifically about gay coming out as opposed to coming to terms with anything unpopular about oneself, though. Feels terribly exclusionary. I hate to say this, but I'm happy Korra is coming to an end. This was probably the first time 'soaring music, glowing eyes, comforting words of affirmation and sudden feel of progression and movement' didn't do much for me. It started to feel like this type of scene should be limited in number in any given series, instead. Korra's vinenet vision felt genuinely horrible, though. meristem fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 11:28
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I'm not at all convinced Korra is completely over all her issues anyway. Last time we were meant to think that Kuvira utterly demolished her. Plus this episode had at least one line that seemed to be the writers saying "She's still not over it, just getting better." The final antagonist of this series is still gonna be Korra herself and she won't bring Kuvira into an utter beat down until she's finished things with her doubts.
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Nov 28, 2014 11:38
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VanSandman posted:Frozen is super easy to read as a coming out story. People say this but every time I watch the movie I see Elsa nearly murdering her sister with her homosexuality twice. I don't think that's how homosexuality works, or I'm not smart enough to get the subtext in those scenes. 
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Nov 28, 2014 12:07
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Jesto posted:People say this but every time I watch the movie I see Elsa nearly murdering her sister with her homosexuality twice. ...Good Lord.
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Nov 28, 2014 12:18
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At this rate we're never going to see the modern day fire nation.
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Nov 28, 2014 12:28
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Further reflection on how the writers for each series have had to somehow tone down/restrict the Avatar to prevent them from Avatar-stating their way through every problem, combined with the Red Lotus plan to kidnap and brainwash the Avatar in her youth, has made me realize that an Avatar series where the Avatar is actually the main antagonist could be really interesting. A shame we won't get another series for a long, long time.
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Nov 28, 2014 12:30
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The episode was pretty great, though it kinda sucks that I couldn't get my mind off the whole animation budget thing the whole time I was watching. Now that we know there have been budget crunches, I just can't help but get fixated on that kind of stuff. It's great that Zaheer actually got confronted with the ramifications of killing the Earth Queen. And Janet Varney acted the hell out of that confrontation. meristem posted:I can't explain the people who say Frozen is specifically about gay coming out as opposed to coming to terms with anything unpopular about oneself, though. Feels terribly exclusionary. In the case of Frozen, the idea of it being [subtextually] about Elsa being in the closet probably has to do with the repeated motif of "conceal, don't feel," which suggests that the stigma that Elsa is trying to suppress -- the "anything unpopular about oneself" that you refer to -- is an emotional trait instead of a physical one. She's not being judged or hated or feared for her appearance, she's being ostracized for a feeling that she has to try to control. That limits the sorts of potential metaphors that could be applied, here; it's not as if you can try to "not feel" your race or your economic status, so the motif works poorly as a metaphor for those sorts of stigmas. One the other hand, the message applies quite easily to someone who experiences socially-unacceptable desires; there's really only a finite amount of possible metaphors when we're talking about emotions or desires that makes society hate and fear you as a monster. Hence, gay themes. If there are other possible, analytical readings of the film, by all means they should be shared and discussed. Not every analysis is going to be created equal though, and some will have more or less merit than others. Jesto posted:People say this but every time I watch the movie I see Elsa nearly murdering her sister with her homosexuality twice. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 14:23
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This episode was actually pretty good. The only thing about this show that's been irking from the very first season is the inappropriate timing on jokes mostly from the prince and Bolin (major contributor to most poo poo from this show). Bolin is still horrible and will forever be my least favorite character in the ATLA series. I'd find it hard to believe that kids would actually find him funny.
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Nov 28, 2014 14:53
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Ugh. Can we just see Toph kick some rear end already? JFC. I really liked this episode though. Korra confronting Zaheer was a great moment. Also, this really is the worst thread.
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Nov 28, 2014 15:02
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uncleKitchener posted:This episode was actually pretty good. It's Bolin they've written as stupid (unintentionally)when they wanted him to be naive and socially oblivious. Personally I like Season 1 ladies man Bolin better but eh he's written how he's written and it's not like he still doesn't have good character traits. edit: Animation as a whole has a problem where it's just stupidly expensive to do it's dragging down the east asian animation scene with stupid otaku bs and it's turning western animation back into the glorified toy commercials they were in the 80's SirKibbles fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 15:06
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meristem posted:I hate to say this, but I'm happy Korra is coming to an end. This was probably the first time 'soaring music, glowing eyes, comforting words of affirmation and sudden feel of progression and movement' didn't do much for me. It started to feel like this type of scene should be limited in number in any given series, instead. Yeah, ditto. I'm glad that Korra is coming to an end because the whole series has mostly been plagued with "sequel-itis", and largely felt like what an earlier poster called "professional fanfiction". It's the creators themselves writing something equivalent to fanfiction extrapolations that fans would come up with. The consequence is that everything that was original, and fresh, and innovative about the original series is retreaded and revisited in the name of continuity, and in so doing, made humdrum, overused, degraded and dull. Korra started by riding on the coat-tails of the ATLA continuity, and has only served to drag down, rather than improve and expand upon the original. In the same way that the Star Wars prequels have cast the entire Star Wars franchise in a worse light by focusing on serving continuity and the seductive glamor of CGI whiz-bang special effects, replacing gravitas with cheap spectacle, Korra has done so for the Avatar franchise. DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 15:10
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BrianWilly posted:like Ravane who hears the words "lesbian pornography" and registers only "lesbian pornography." I think I understood lesbian pornography rather well.  I'm just the only one here that doesn't bother trying to extrapolate gay themes from fiction, where it so obviously doesn't exist. What the hell is a gay theme anyway?Are gay people a completely unique sect of people that all behave in the same way? You think every gay person knows the feeling of being in the closet? I guarantee you it's not that way anymore, I've met plenty of gay people that haven't had emotional drama whatsoever coming out. And I've met plenty who have, though they haven't met the really crazy drama you see on tv. Unless you live in a place like Uganda where being gay is a death sentence, North America/Europe is actually a decent place to be gay in. And there are so many different types of gay people, they're not all feminine and they're not all watching Frozen or Korra, and they're not all so stupid as to think, "Man, I really need to support and reaffirm my sexual identity by watching with movie/tv show and making up fanfiction." Who the gently caress fears gay people as monsters? Most people just think gay sex is weird. That's it! Then you have the crazy religious people, but that's genuinely a small sect of people. I have lived in the south, and I've never actually encountered them besides the random idiot calling me a sandnigger once in a blue moon. What, you got bullied, you were called a "human being"? Who cares? I was severely bullied for being gay, I got over it. I heard the word human being, more than I ever heard my actual name in highschool. I got over it. Guess what, gay people and straight people today are no different. Stop feeling unique guys, people are gay, people are straight, it doesn't matter anymore. Yes, you can make up your own themes on what the story is about, that doesn't change author's intent, but ultimately it just feeds this fantasy world that you live in. And it's subjective, so if I disagree, I'm not wrong, no matter how many of you say I am. You're not wrong either, but you're not wholly right. It's an opinion, but you guys state it matter-of-fact. Coming out of the closet has become a sort of mantra among gay people, like it's something that all gay people do. It's not. Some people are strong enough to accept who they are from the beginning, not entering the closet in the first place. You ask me, that's who we should strive to emulate. Not Elsa, who hides her poo poo for 25 years. I'm not even going to talk about Korra because she hugged Asami and Asami gave tea to her, those are not gay themes. I've seen straight people do this too. You can construe them as romantic themes, but the bottom line is that they're friends. "Oh wouldn't it be nice if they were gay?" Sure it'd be nice, but they're not gay so you're just delving into creepy fanfiction territory.
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Nov 28, 2014 15:39
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Hey Ravane. Shut the gently caress up.
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Nov 28, 2014 15:41
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You're an overreacting loving weirdo, Ravane.
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Nov 28, 2014 15:44
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Ravane posted:It's an opinion, but you guys state it matter-of-fact. Who has been stating opinions as matter-of-fact aside from you? Also, good lord, we didn't need a tedious loving essay on the subject.
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Nov 28, 2014 15:49
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im loving gay
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Nov 28, 2014 15:56
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Episode 9 was decent setup. So are we going to get the four-part finale all in one bit or are we really going to have to go week-to-week on this?
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Nov 28, 2014 16:02
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kefkafloyd posted:Episode 9 was decent setup. So are we going to get the four-part finale all in one bit or are we really going to have to go week-to-week on this? Two single episodes, then two on the 19th.
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Nov 28, 2014 16:06
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And then we can close the thread and never speak of this series again. A Christmas miracle.
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Nov 28, 2014 16:12
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Pomp posted:You're an overreacting loving weirdo, Ravane. Hey, if you're resorting to personally insulting me, I guess I've made my point. thexerox123 posted:Who has been stating opinions as matter-of-fact aside from you? Literally everybody. MrAristocrates posted:Hey Ravane. Fair enough, I've already made my point, doesn't seem like anybody can debate it. All of you seem to lack critical thinking skills, but what can I expect from a thread about a tv show for children.
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Nov 28, 2014 16:15
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Ravane posted:Literally everybody. Care to quote one or two examples, then?
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Nov 28, 2014 16:16
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VanSandman posted:Frozen is super easy to read as a coming out story. I don't know why some people are so resistant to the idea of subtext but it's really annoying to deal with like climate change deniers or people who don't accept evolution. Matter-of-Fact post on the last page. It might be easy to read as a coming out story, but that doesn't make a coming out story. And it's no way in the same league as climate change and evolution deniers.
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Nov 28, 2014 16:22
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Ravane posted:It might be easy to read as a coming out story, but that doesn't make a coming out story. Maybe that's why that post just says that it's easy to read as a coming out story, not that it is one? Maybe you shouldn't criticize other peoples' critical thinking skills.
thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 16:24
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Don't argue with Ravane.
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Nov 28, 2014 16:25
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