|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:These complaints are invariably based on the presumption that the Jedi are good. I don't see why that's so. I fully accept the Jedi as flawed message that Lucas is going for. I'll give him the credit for making them seem that way and this is partially why the prequels do some things really well. That doesn't change the fact that sometimes it wouldn't kill you to create an interior set so the actors actually move in a real space.
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 02:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 20:38 |
|
|
The artifice of the sets nicely reinforces the artifice of the society pre revolution / coup.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 02:36
|
|
|
The Dagda posted:Nostalgia influences our perceptions even into adulthood. That's why I still like Star Wars 30 years later (yes, I mean the original movies not the prequels), when they are just corny adventure movies. I have no doubt it shapes how younger people perceive the prequels as well. The original films had a bit more going for them than nostalgia. 1. Novelty: Buck Rogers on a big, technically impressive scale had never really been done. Effects like that just were not par for the course 2. They sort of dumped you into a strange, alien, and built world where you didn't have any clue what weird settings or creatures were going to pop up next 3. Characters were just types, but very well-defined types you could follow and latch onto 4. Stories were simple, with direct plots that quickly got audiences from one spectacle to the next, providing very short scenes for character development. Obviously, Luke and Yoda are the exception. They have incredibly strong by-the book three-act structures 5. Pacing: Episode IV is a little slow out the gate, and its pacing is closer to seventies sci-fi pacing in the first act. But after that, the movies move with purpose, narrowing exposition to only what is needed to get us to the next awesome scene. They share that quality with Raiders of the Lost Ark. I'd argue that pacing has been largely lost in the world of bloated 2.5-3 hour science fiction/comic book epics 6. They have a strong design aesthetic, carried over from the golden age of science fiction and dented and aged into verisimilitude The first two prequel films: 1. Have no novelty. The special effects blockbuster epic had been a mainstay in theaters for quite some time. They could do bigger and more, but not much better 2. Have a cool setting, but one that is largely defined by the canonical franchise. You don't have those "wtf" moments like when the sand crawler is rolling through the desert. 3. Have characters that are almost needlessly complicated, and contradictory, that spend a lot of time pontificating, whining, spewing exposition, neurotically romancing. Gone is the simplicity of farm boy Luke and space cowboy Han. 4. Have needlessly complicated, overstuffed plots with a Mass Effect game's worth of incident. In Attack of the Clones, Lucas almost seems to be trying to channel John LeCarre, and it slows everything down with layers and layers of exposition 5. Are overlong and badly paced, with the story flow almost hiccuping. Endless scenes of bad chemistry romance doesn't help 6. The design of the first two prequels is cool in parts, but the world looks shiny and new to a ridiculous degree, and some of the planets look like Thomas Kinkaid paintings. I feel Episode III benefits by being closer to the former than the latter. And on some level, I think the problem with the prequels is that they're not corny adventure movies. They're convoluted political dramas with bad acting, stilted dialogue and poor editing, with some cool space battles and stuff thrown in. That's my nerd sperg for the day. Love Rat fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Nov 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 02:43
|
|
|
Ross posted:I won't claim to be an expert on Kurosawa (I've seen Seven Samurai a few times and that's it) but I always thought this movie was an homage to samurai as noble/heroic figures and their tragic futility. The prequel Jedi definitely have the tragic futility thing but saying "the Jedi/Samurai are bad" in either case seems like a reach to me. I think they're trying to live up to the idea of samurai being noble heroes (Much like Luke does for Jedi in RotJ, despite the prequels showing us the Jedi in reality were all a bunch of clowns from the circus (No offense to actual circus clowns meant)), but you also have to remember Mifune's big speech in the film about the samurai class. He essentially accuses the other six samurai of maintaining the culture that allows that village to be invaded to begin with- remember, their enemies are not only bandits, but 30 other ronin just like themselves. Do check out Kurosawa's other films at some point. They're all amazing for the most part.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 02:44
|
|
|
Raxivace posted:Yeah, I think Lucas' biggest issue is that he just isn't the greatest of film craftsmen. He's amazing at synthesizing different ideas into a coherent single basic whole- just look at how the original Star Wars draws on material as different as The Searchers, The Good, The Bad and the Ugly, The Hidden Fortress, Metropolis, and Triumph of the Will and tons of stuff I'm sure I've never even heard of...but Star Wars still has its very own identity. Even the prequels are pretty good about this sort of thing- Anakin is a great spin on that protagonist kid from Sansho the Bailiff, but he's still very much Anakin Skywalker. The general setting of the StarWars universe is also, with its blend of far flung settings, advanced technology and mystical elements, very compelling. Personally, though, (and obviously it's a purely subjective thing) I wish they'd be less tethered to the original plot lines in making more movies within that setting. The Tale of Zatoichi, for example, would make an interesting backbone for a Sith centered story either well before or well after the events of the first six movies.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 02:57
|
|
|
euphronius posted:The artifice of the sets nicely reinforces the artifice of the society pre revolution / coup. a big old dog turd would have symbolized well how lovely the jedi were at the time, doesnt make it any more entertaining to watch
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:02
|
|
|
Raxivace posted:I think they're trying to live up to the idea of samurai being noble heroes (Much like Luke does for Jedi in RotJ, despite the prequels showing us the Jedi in reality were all a bunch of clowns from the circus (No offense to actual circus clowns meant)), but you also have to remember Mifune's big speech in the film about the samurai class. He essentially accuses the other six samurai of maintaining the culture that allows that village to be invaded to begin with- remember, their enemies are not only bandits, but 30 other ronin just like themselves. Also, Kambei Shimada's journey as the savior of the village begins with his taking off of the vestments of his status and shaving his head. Possibly just a plot device but it does line up with that speech later on, and with the villagers being despondent at the apathy of the local officials (who presumably were also Samurai).
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:03
|
|
|
Love Rat posted:The original films had a bit more going for them than nostalgia. This is what I was trying to say in a post earlier today... Looking at the teaser, everyone who we think is a good guy is scared and essentially on the run except for the X wing pilot who is very serious and in attack formation. The enemies are slick and intimidating in number and skill/technology. The music is menacing and stress inducing. I really believe this tells me that the fundamental structure of the story is going to be straight underdog heroes running from and eventually launching an offensive on the enemy. With a very simple and direct structure like that, Abram has easy viewer buy in to add whatever new elements he wants(of course which while probably keeping it pretty safe).
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:04
|
|
|
Abrams also likes his surprises and twists though, so there could be a bait and switch here. Both Star Trek films and to a lesser degree Super 8 did this. You could argue Lost as well, even if that was more Lindelof and Cuse, with Abrams really only helping with the initial set-up.Sheikh Djibouti posted:Also, Kambei Shimada's journey as the savior of the village begins with his taking off of the vestments of his status and shaving his head. Possibly just a plot device but it does line up with that speech later on, and with the villagers being despondent at the apathy of the local officials (who presumably were also Samurai). This is a great point. Yoda is also supposedly based on Kambei (They have the same head rubbing thing going on), but I haven't put much thought into comparing them yet. Sheikh Djibouti posted:The general setting of the StarWars universe is also, with its blend of far flung settings, advanced technology and mystical elements, very compelling. Personally, though, (and obviously it's a purely subjective thing) I wish they'd be less tethered to the original plot lines in making more movies within that setting. The Tale of Zatoichi, for example, would make an interesting backbone for a Sith centered story either well before or well after the events of the first six movies. Totally agree on the universe, but I'll have to take your word on The Tale of Zatoichi as I have yet to see it. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Nov 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:10
|
|
|
Raxivace posted:Abrams also likes his surprises and twists though, so there could be a bait and switch here. Both Star Trek films and to a lesser degree Super 8 did this. Wait, where was the bait-and-switch in Star Trek '09? (Outside of the entire alternate timeline thing, but that was already assumed.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:15
|
|
|
Nessus posted:I hope that dark forest planet was Endor, possibly burned out by Death Star wreckage.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:15
|
|
|
Timby posted:Wait, where was the bait-and-switch in Star Trek '09? (Outside of the entire alternate timeline thing, but that was already assumed.) I was referring to the timeline thing, but I didn't know people assumed that already. As someone with no other exposure to the franchise at all, I didn't expect it myself.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:16
|
|
|
Slugworth posted:There was a study that found people enjoy stuff more when it has been spoiled for them, because they are more focused on what's happening vs trying to guess what will. My friend once told me the main character of a game I was playing died at the end. It wasn't true, but I spent the entire last mission pissed off at my friend.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:17
|
|
|
ha wrong thread
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:31
|
|
|
Ross posted:This thread has me reminiscing about the build-up to Episode I in 1999. I have to believe there's never been a movie with higher expectations. Maybe the Matrix sequel came close. The Clone Wars series (the newer one, not the 2D shorts) really redeemed the prequel settings in my eyes. All it really did was make Anakin into a hero and give him a padawan and you actually started cared about the tragedy of his turn to the dark side. Having multiple perspective switches gave the Clone Wars room to tell its story, giving it a feel similar to that of Game of Thrones and Romance of Three Kingdoms. Out of the prequels, AOTC was the only one that felt like a complete mess because it packed in so many things without really going anywhere. Phantom was mediocre/ok for the most part and Revenge was a bit short of being truly great. All of them had the issue of being overstuffed with different ideas, factions, themes while giving the viewers minimal time to synthesize all those threads and connect the story. Tezzeract fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Nov 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:50
|
|
|
Sasquatch! posted:They didn't actually die on Endor though, I thought they both died on the Star Destroyer?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:52
|
|
|
I think the idea of "what if the thing/person you deify is actually really terrible" is more interesting though. Like, Harry Potter did the same thing with Harry's dad being a giant dick and it feels like Lucas was going for the same thing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:52
|
|
|
euphronius posted:If black storm trooper turns out to be a Jedi, as is really suggested by the teaser, I will be so happy. Maybe he's a bounty hunter, we'd get a nice spinoff: Jango Unchained
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:55
|
|
|
Pook Good Mook posted:I don't see why that's so. I fully accept the Jedi as flawed message that Lucas is going for. I'll give him the credit for making them seem that way and this is partially why the prequels do some things really well. Yea this is about how I feel. I think the prequels are very interesting on a conceptual level but that doesn't mean I can sit through Episode II anytime soon.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 03:59
|
|
|
Misandrist Duck posted:Funny you should mention that, I was just reading this - Ridiculously positive reactions to the Phantom Menace teaser I can't remember what issue but I remember a issue of Entertainment Weekly that had a speculative version of what episodes 1 2 and 3 were going to be. It sounded pretty well thought out (compared to, well, how it actually turned out). Anakin starts off an adult, The Clone Wars is only the 1st movie, with the 2nd and 3rd dealing more directly with the Republic crumbling from within and Anakin gradually losing his humanity to get more power (not unlike Tim "the Tool Man" Taylor.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:03
|
|
|
Sushi in Yiddish posted:Anakin gradually losing his humanity to get more power (not unlike Tim "the Tool Man" Taylor). This is a very strange comparison.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:09
|
|
|
Sushi in Yiddish posted:Anakin starts off an adult I always felt like starting him off at eight years old or whatever age he was exactly in Ep. I was way too young. The entire first movie was wasted on connecting/investing the audience with the central character because (i) this is hard for teens and adults to do with someone so young and (ii) kids want their hero to be Luke Skywalker, not someone their own age. But I'm sure they sold a ton of that Podracing N64 game.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:09
|
|
|
Tusen Takk posted:Am I the only one that really enjoyed the preauels? I mean yeah the dialog was lovely, but anakin was supposed to be a whiny spoiled poo poo and HC happened to be a good choice for that/did what he was told. The action was fantastic, the lightsabers duels were awesome, and the cool pre-empire clone stuff was rad as gently caress I never really liked that, though. When I saw the OT it made me think that Anakin was a genuinely good guy but in the prequel trilogy he was always a prick. I also figured he had gone to the dark side later on in life, not in his early twenties.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:11
|
|
|
So which one of you is this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXkUHttClCQ
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:15
|
|
|
PaganGoatPants posted:So which one of you is this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXkUHttClCQ I'm the Halo tattoo below his ear.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:22
|
|
|
PaganGoatPants posted:So which one of you is this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXkUHttClCQ This is the person the midichlorians of this thread have spontaneously formed as a vector for hatred.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:22
|
|
|
Bizarro Watt posted:I never really liked that, though. When I saw the OT it made me think that Anakin was a genuinely good guy but in the prequel trilogy he was always a prick. I also figured he had gone to the dark side later on in life, not in his early twenties. I remember before the prequels (when I was a dork reading Thrawn novels and poo poo) I always imagined Anakin being this tall warrior with a samurai style, just a total badass in armor who people did not want to gently caress with, maybe owned the best arable land on Tatooine or something. Maybe Kenobi hosed his wife or something, so he lost his poo poo. I liked the idea. And then the prequels give us this whiny, stalker weirdo skulking around in the shadows. I remember a friend at the time claiming that's what was subversive about the prequels, that the badass was just a jealous, oversensitive wimp in a cyborg suit. Given Obi Wan's description in Episode III, I find that hard to believe. I do feel the Clone Wars rectified the character a little bit though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:22
|
|
|
Bizarro Watt posted:I never really liked that, though. When I saw the OT it made me think that Anakin was a genuinely good guy but in the prequel trilogy he was always a prick. I also figured he had gone to the dark side later on in life, not in his early twenties. Yeah and we get these hints that Anakin and Obi Wan were really close friends, but when we see them in the prequels they're just shits to each other constantly. And Anakin starting as a kid means we essentially have to be reintroduced to him again in Episode II because the time jump's so big he's practically an entirely different character. For me the biggest failing of the prequels has always been the characterisation of Anakin in particular, which just doesn't feel right at all. When I was in Uni one of my housemates told me that Anakin was the best character in all of Star Wars and I didn't know where to start on how wrong he was.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:25
|
|
|
Ross posted:But I'm sure they sold a ton of that Podracing N64 game. Episode I: Racer loving owned. Genuinely my favorite thing to come out of the prequels.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:26
|
|
|
Tusen Takk posted:I was like 10 when TPM came out, but I just watched them again as an bitter adult ready to lash out against the memories of my childhood to see if they truly were awful garbage and it was just as cool, so I don't really see how what age I saw them at changes anything Revenge of the Sith is better than Return of the Jedi, at any rate. I appreciate the prequels from a visual and concept design aesthetic. If the movie part of the movies wasn't up to par, well, that's not something that's my primary concern, anyway. Semi-related: the main reason I have hope for Eps. 7 through 9 is dialogue direction. One of the things that made ANH and ESB work was the naturalistic dialogue style that was everywhere during the Seventies--characters mumbled, rushed, talked over each other, and generally delivered their lines like actual human beings speaking somewhere that wasn't on camera. Listen to Jaws, Close Encounters, The French Connection, the Godfather I and II, Marathon Man, and any other A-list title that came out before about 1980. They were just like that. Then, something changed. Movie lines had to be more carefully enunciated. All the dialogue had to be carefully blocked, like in theater. With few exceptions, that just became the norm. But recently, there's been kind of a reversion. Naturalistic line direction is coming back. JJA kind of tapped into it for Super 8, and I don't know if that was just part of the "loveletter to Spielberg" thing he had going on there or not, but if he embraces it, we could get more of the same for TFA. Madurai fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Nov 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:28
|
|
|
Imagine if someone as genuinely awesome as Mr. Rogers became evil and turned to the dark side. Actually, just imagine if it was Mr. Rogers, but like, a warrior version of him. You'd probably care.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:31
|
|
|
I really agree with the notion that the Clone Wars should have been the first thing we see, just the good old days of brothers/sisters in arms fighting the good fight for the Republic--Anakin is already a hotshot pilot, but Obi-Wan hasn't started his training yet. Start with a bang, and then drill down into the characters and their internal conflicts. Starting with big, adventurous, swashbuckling fun might have roped in audiences from the start. I think that's what people wanted, not Obi-Wan's master, some robots and a commercial blockade. Imagine if the opening of Episode I was the opening of Episode III. Anyways, enough fan fiction.
Love Rat fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Nov 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:31
|
|
|
Lipset and Rock On posted:For me the biggest failing of the prequels has always been the characterisation of Anakin in particular, which just doesn't feel right at all. Clone Wars makes him way more likable.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:33
|
|
|
Honestly if I had seen this episode 7 trailer in 1999 I would be loosing my goddamn mind right about now but nowadays I'm just like "welp, that sure is another Star Wars movie"
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:35
|
|
|
Bizarro Watt posted:I never really liked that, though. When I saw the OT it made me think that Anakin was a genuinely good guy but in the prequel trilogy he was always a prick. I also figured he had gone to the dark side later on in life, not in his early twenties. He wasn't a total prick, though. He was a good kid with some big character flaws, not unlike Luke really. They're both idealistic youngsters who want to help people and make a difference, but who are impatient and have a tendency to lash out at people who they feel are treating them unfairly. The difference is Anakin had a massively different upbringing than Luke, and faced different pressures throughout his life. Even then, they're not so different. Anakin held his mother in his arms as she died from weeks of brutal torture at the hands of a tribe of aliens which he had been preconditioned to view as less than human, and so in a fit of blind rage he killed them all, because he could. Luke goes through almost the same thing with his aunt and uncle, except their deaths were relatively quick, the murderers had left the scene, and he didn't have the ability to exact immediate revenge; but then he joins a paramilitary rebel group, kills a whole shitload of human stormtroopers without even flinching, and then blows up a massive Imperial military installation, likely killing millions. Emotionally, Luke does the same thing as Anakin, only Luke's good fortune was that his revenge slaughter happened to coincide with military necessity. Anyway, if Anakin had started off as this totally good guy with absolutely no issues, it would have been dumb when he turned into Darth loving Vader, and it wouldn't have been as poignant when he was redeemed. Because then he would just have been some goody-two shoes rear end in a top hat who, despite being completely well-adjusted and mentally sound, decided to start murdering people to help prop up a fascist dictatorship run by an insane Hitler-esque cultist. Is that really what people wanted? The Anakin we got actually had believable reasons to do what he did despite being a good person at heart, because he had massive emotional issues stemming from childhood that were exacerbated by a lifetime of manipulation by both the Jedi and the Sith.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:35
|
|
|
Gammatron 64 posted:Honestly if I had seen this episode 7 trailer in 1999 I would be loosing my goddamn mind right about now but nowadays I'm just like "welp, that sure is another Star Wars movie" Another Star Wars movie? That's the last thing I want.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:39
|
|
|
I don't think the problem with Anakin is that he's got some evil in him from the beginning. The problem with Anakin is that he's simply a prick, a snide little creep. There is no nobility to him. He's just a teary-eyed stalker. I certainly wouldn't want Anakin to be a perfectly normal faultless guy, I just wanted him to be a great person with a tragic flaw. And nowhere in the prequels does he come off as great, or even mildly interesting. I mean, this is the guy Obi-Wan can't shut up about in Episode IV.?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:41
|
|
|
Cnut the Great posted:Anyway, if Anakin had started off as this totally good guy with absolutely no issues, it would have been dumb when he turned into Darth loving Vader, and it wouldn't have been as poignant when he was redeemed. Because then he would just have been some goody-two shoes rear end in a top hat who, despite being completely well-adjusted and mentally sound, decided to start murdering people to help prop up a fascist dictatorship run by an insane Hitler-esque cultist. Is that really what people wanted? The Anakin we got actually had believable reasons to do what he did despite being a good person at heart, because he had massive emotional issues stemming from childhood that were exacerbated by a lifetime of manipulation by both the Jedi and the Sith. The way I imagined Anakin turning to the dark side wasn't an amazing guy suddenly deciding to be evil. To do it how I thought it had happened, the prequels would have to be completely revamped, probably with Ep I starting out with Anakin already as an adult and possibly like another poster said, the Clone Wars already taking place. That said, someone being a genuinely good guy doesn't mean they don't have issues, insecurities, ambitions, etc. I mean, everyone has issues and there's no shortage of them in any person, good or bad. All of which would have been ripe for manipulation that could have resulted a complete turn to the dark side, slowly, over the course of three films. If the origin of Darth Vader is what we want to see, anyway. For what it's worth, I never saw the Clone Wars and I'm going only by the films. But the Anakin in the prequels wasn't a good guy, he was a weird, creepy, obsessive rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:41
|
|
|
Lipset and Rock On posted:Yeah and we get these hints that Anakin and Obi Wan were really close friends, but when we see them in the prequels they're just shits to each other constantly. The whole Palpatine rescue scene in Episode III shows the opposite.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 20:38 |
|
|
Anakin turns away from the Jedi not the good side. There is no good side in the six Star Wars movie. Maybe there will be in 7.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2014 04:43
|
|