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I dug this episode. I was so sure that Carol was going to bite the bullet that Beth getting domed caught me completely off-guard. They subverted expectations of an all out war with the hospital too, which is good in my book. This is the first time a conflict between Rick's and a rival group ended with a peaceful (by comparison) resolution, and not literally everyone else from the opposing side dead. Also holy poo poo at Rick going dark. Running Lamson down, "we can't go back Bob, not from this", and that "Shut up" after blowing his brains out were ice-cold and pretty far removed from the Rick we used to know. If you think about it Lamson was 100% correct, he had no idea who these people were and had no reason to trust they wouldn't murder every single person in that hospital even if Dawn agreed to the deal. I love that the writers didn't try to excuse Rick's action at all with a "Lamson was really super evil all along!" moment. Interested to see where they go with Rick from here. I got the impression that with the deaths of Gorman, Jeffries, O'donnel, and Ellen Parsons from Damages the balance of power has shifted away from the remaining dirty cops, and there's a hope of a better living situation between the other cops and wards. Either way I hope we never see any of them again, and that their ultimate fate is left as an open question. At the end of the day I'm glad that the mission that drove our heroes for the second half of the mid-season ultimately ended in failure. Beth wasn't saved in the end, all they got out of it was a severely injured Carol and an already gimpy Noah. It reinforced the theme that there really is no "winning" in this world anymore, only varying degrees of heartbreak and bare-bones survival. Now that I'm caught up with the thread, the best post from last night is definitely: Aphrodite posted:Just save some time and put a sign with RAPE and an arrow pointing down above the elevator. Mazzagatti2Hotty fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 18:46
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SocketWrench posted:I'm pretty sure Beth seeing that Dawn's a huge bullshitter and the whole "I told you he'd be back" have a bit more to do with it than rescuing noah it's rape. Rape isn't about sex it's about power and control. Dawn flaunting the "I told you he'd be back" after coercing is what made Beth snap. Dawn, despite thinking she was different than the other rapecops, was exactly the same. GrAviTy84 fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 18:51
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This episode was good, but would have been better if they didn't devote so much time to worldbuilding the evil hospital. Dawn and her henchmen are just another League of Doom, except we don't know who anybody is, and Dawn herself and her troupe of corrupt cops that just abduct random strangers and sit around eating donuts in between raping people and casually getting murdered by said rape victims in turn are so pathetic compared to the Governor who collects severed heads, and the cannibals who are loving cannibals. It was like trying to make a Donald Trump level of evil look threatening but all it did was drag it out.
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Dec 1, 2014 18:56
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I don't get why they thought it'd be a good idea to meet at the hospital for the exchange or to bring Noah along but Rick telling a corpse to shut up somehow made it all worth it.
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Dec 1, 2014 18:59
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I thought the show did a good job of showing that Beth suddenly got that Dawn had been raping Noah at that moment. After she had shown some commiseration this episode about Beth being manhandled, it triggered the crazy in Beth. Might be a little off, but that's what I thought was heavily telegraphed throughout this little arc.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:01
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I get what they were trying to do. The contrast of where beth was to where she is now. How she was trying to maintain control of her life and situation by killing herself when we first met her and how she has come full circle as a fighter only to lose her life anyway. I think the scissors thing was a bit hamfisted though. The martial law thing could've been done better, too. 6 cops and 5 wards isn't really all that threatening and as far as military states are concerned this wasn't exactly the Khmer Rouge. I think they couldve made it look more dire. Edit: and RE father gabriel, remember he's been sheltered this whole time, He's basically experiencing the apocalypse in its full right now which is why he's completely useless. Rewatch season 1 and 2, there are a shitton of useless people like him. GrAviTy84 fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 19:04
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Funso Banjo posted:I thought the show did a good job of showing that Beth suddenly got that Dawn had been raping Noah at that moment. After she had shown some commiseration this episode about Beth being manhandled, it triggered the crazy in Beth. That's hot
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Dec 1, 2014 19:08
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Wait. Dawn was raping Noah?
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Dec 1, 2014 19:13
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This show does need to try and stop humanizing every single goddamn character right up to faceless mooks that you know are fuckfaces that are only getting to get themselves killed anyway though. It even almost worked for the Governor in S4 and that was only one season ago but now it's getting old. Unless you're really going to follow up a character/plot thread with something mind blowing, there's no point in building a big backstory for a lovely character that only serves to reiterate it's a lovely character. Dawn was just some idiot without any real power and would have gotten her head collected by the Governor or gobbled up at Terminus if she went beyond her little bubble of a world, she doesn't need to have depth artificially added to her by the writing staff and sometimes that's okay. Look at how little time Claimed Joe and his gang had, and they were already more compelling than Dawn for however long this lasted.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:15
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AndyElusive posted:Wait. I don't know for sure if that's what they were implying, but I definitely got the impression from Dawn that Noah was going to be punished severely for Beth's transgression, simply as an attempt to steal Beth's "victory" from her. Beth sacrificing herself for Noah's sake was the ultimate "gently caress you" to Dawn. Whether she was a rapist herself or not, she was most certainly responsible for allowing it to happen to Joan.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:24
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I really like that Rick is just done with it all. No second chances. But then the writing is inconsistent in that I can't see him logically thinking it would be okay to meet that group in their own hospital. Especially with how perfect it was set up when he was speaking to the other 2 cops and Sasha capped that zombie. "Hey guys let's just give up our position and go inside their own fortified building." poo poo was dumb. Everybody talks about Hershel / Beth / Preacher dude being the 'voice of reason' but now Rick is the only one using his goddamn brain.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:26
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AndyElusive posted:Wait. The Walking Dead S5: It's always rape with you people.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:27
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Everyone calling Beth dumb, if you were face to face with Hitler who demanded you hand over a Jew and you had a pair of scissors, can you say you wouldn't do the same?
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Dec 1, 2014 19:32
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AndyElusive posted:Wait. No, but this is SA so of course 
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Dec 1, 2014 19:32
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MariusLecter posted:Everyone calling Beth dumb, if you were face to face with Hitler who demanded you hand over a Jew and you had a pair of scissors, can you say you wouldn't do the same? I don't think Beth's sacrifice was dumb at all, but I do agree with the criticism that stabbing Dawn in the face/neck/anyplace more effective would have worked better, especially since Daryl capped Dawn immediately afterwards removing the need for the stabbing to be non-fatal.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:37
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MariusLecter posted:Everyone calling Beth dumb, if you were face to face with Hitler who demanded you hand over a Jew and you had a pair of scissors, can you say you wouldn't do the same? No, I would've aimed for Hitler's neck.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:39
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MariusLecter posted:Everyone calling Beth dumb, if you were face to face with Hitler who demanded you hand over a Jew and you had a pair of scissors, can you say you wouldn't do the same? Yeah I'd totally stab him right in his armored shoulder and not jugular/face/eye edit: and then I'd be totally surprised when I get my brains blown out
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Dec 1, 2014 19:40
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I think this also contrasts to earlier Beth. Throughout the series whenever something bad happens to her she always pleads to someone else to "do something". In this instance, she doesn't even think twice before reacting.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:40
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GrAviTy84 posted:I think this also contrasts to earlier Beth. Throughout the series whenever something bad happens to her she always pleads to someone else to "do something". In this instance, she doesn't even think twice before reacting. It's like they really had to drive home the fact that she couldn't do anything right
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Dec 1, 2014 19:41
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There's no loving way that hallway wouldn't have erupted in gunfire as soon as Daryl drew his gun and pointed it in all the other cops' general direction btw.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:45
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It would have been better if Beth fell down the shaft when trying to push down rape cop. Also, everyone knows Hitler's power was in his moustache so Beth should have cut Dawn's moustache off.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:52
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a cop posted:There's no loving way that hallway wouldn't have erupted in gunfire as soon as Daryl drew his gun and pointed it in all the other cops' general direction btw. Naw we're cool 
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Dec 1, 2014 19:54
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a cop posted:There's no loving way that hallway wouldn't have erupted in gunfire as soon as Daryl drew his gun and pointed it in all the other cops' general direction btw. Cops would have only done that if they were unarmed blacks.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:56
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Characters in this show seem super reluctant to kill or shoot at one another unless the plot demands it or if it's needed for some mid season finale bullshit. Doesn't matter if they should kill/behead/shoot at/attack somebody because of something logical. If the story doesn't benefit from it, nobody shoots or does anything violent. Also lol at the cops calling walkers "rotters". The writers come up with some interesting poo poo to avoid the word "zombie".
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Dec 1, 2014 19:59
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MariusLecter posted:Cops would have only done that if they were unarmed blacks. lucky tyreese and sasha were packing heat.
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Dec 1, 2014 20:02
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MariusLecter posted:Cops would have only done that if they were unarmed blacks. no they only rape them
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Dec 1, 2014 20:02
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It was pretty well established that everyone hated Dawn and that it was just a matter of time before one of the cops put a bullet in her head. Beth spelled out how the hospital works early in the episode. They use people to do the dirty work. The cops were content to see the dirty strangers solve their problem for them. They also were already objecting to Dawn's insistence that Noah stay and could clearly recognize that Beth dying was an unnecessary tragedy of Dawn's making. So cooler heads prevailed. I have no problem with that. All of the established assholes had already been killed. Honestly, I thought an interesting element of the cop storyline is that aside from a few bad apples it's entirely possible these aren't bad people. They're cowards and too weak to stop the bad people amongst them but we're given plenty of indication the last few episodes that they see the bad stuff being done and would like to stop it if they had the balls to. Lamson is an interesting guy because you really can't blame him running. He's been kidnapped by a bunch of psychos who are planning an assault on the hospital. I don't think he lied about anything he said. I think he wanted Dawn taken down but also wanted her alive, and he didn't trust these people as he shouldn't have. If anything he saw both sides of this conflict a little too clearly and was stuck in the middle.
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Dec 1, 2014 20:12
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STAC Goat posted:All of the established assholes had already been killed. Somebody earlier mentioned that the nature of the "orderlies'" servitude was nonsensical. The cops feed, shelter, and clothe the orderlies while the cops themselves go about the task of governing, guarding the hospital, and operating perilous supply runs (of both human and material goods). The cops maintain this so that the orderlies can... sweep up? Sew some holes? Dust their desk?? The only conclusion we can draw is that cops' only incentive is the power they have over the orderlies. It is an end in itself. In this case it's not even subtext: the control they exert is manifest through sexual dominance and rape. YES, Dawn was raping Noah. Of course she was. Why else take that bridge-too-far and stake her claim on him? Why else any of this?? There were no good cops; they were all rapists. Even that short stubby one that got no dialogue and was only present during the showdown scene. Because if not, why else even take slaves at all?
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Dec 1, 2014 20:26
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TWD s5: Shut up. All cops are rapists. But only unarmed black people.
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Dec 1, 2014 20:34
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Yeah who wants to even own a slave if you can't rape them.
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Dec 1, 2014 20:34
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Harton posted:Yeah who wants to even own a slave if you can't rape them. This, but unironically. In the context of a zombie apocalypse, at least. 
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Dec 1, 2014 20:47
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Was Cop Bob Sitwell from the Marvel films? If so, god riddance to that Nazi bastard.
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Dec 1, 2014 20:50
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Aw, poor Santa Slave.
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Dec 1, 2014 20:51
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Harton posted:Yeah who wants to even own a slave if you can't rape them. Judging from history that's pretty much the jist of things.
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Dec 1, 2014 20:52
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AndyElusive posted:Characters in this show seem super reluctant to kill or shoot at one another unless the plot demands it or if it's needed for some mid season finale bullshit. If they used walkers then there would be ten pages of complaining about how they couldn't possibly have been able to get widespread usage of a singular noun without a functional communication system. To that end, I almost wish they would just go ahead and use Zombie.
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Dec 1, 2014 20:56
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Tellah posted:Somebody earlier mentioned that the nature of the "orderlies'" servitude was nonsensical. The cops feed, shelter, and clothe the orderlies while the cops themselves go about the task of governing, guarding the hospital, and operating perilous supply runs (of both human and material goods). The cops maintain this so that the orderlies can... sweep up? Sew some holes? Dust their desk?? It seems absurd to me to think that Dawn was raping Noah. Not just because there was never any implication of that in story and this "why have a slave if you can't rape them?" thing seems crazy to me, but because earlier in this episode Dawn specifically called out one of the cops for the rapes. Assuming she was raping Noah means you think Dawn was utterly deluded and somehow saw her rapes as different from their rapes. Dawn wasn't raping Noah. But the system is undeniably hosed up and Dawn WAS abusing her power over Noah, Beth, and the other orderlies. Dawn didn't rape them, but she slapped them around, lorded over them, told them how much they needed her, made them wait on her, and in general treated them like property. Dawn was deluded in thinking that what she was doing was different from what the raping cops were doing because she drew a moral line at rape, but she couldn't see the real problem of this system of indentured servitude where the wards were to always defer to the cops as second class citizens. Again, the system is hosed up and wrong and that allowed the cops to abuse their power in a lot of ways. Some of those ways were really evil like rape but some of them were simple luxuries that Beth routinely pointed out were way more special than they were regarding them such as watching DVDs, listening to music, or riding what I assume was an electric stationary bike. I mean, the simple fact that Dawn was expecting clothes to be laundered after they got even a little dirty or torn is an absurd waste of resources that would never have been done in any Beth's situations (except maybe the early farm days when Herschel was just as deluded as Dawn as to the reality of this new world). Hell, the sheer amount of electricity they used to leave the lights on all day seemed like an abuse in itself. Cops like Lawson are guilty of letting this system persist and turning their heads at the terrible things happening. But Noah specially says "He's one of the good ones." Unless you think Noah is just really sympathetic to the rapist it doesn't make sense to assume Lawson was doing terrible poo poo too. Hell, Noah sticks up for Dawn a number of times as someone simply in over her head and unable to control what's happening. Unless you think he's got major Stockholm Syndrome it doesn't make a lot of sense to assume she's busy raping him. This wasn't some rape camp. There were one or two cops raping people but those were symptoms of the greater problem. The disease is the entire "cops can do no wrong, they have to feel this is worth it" system Dawn sought to maintain. And the truth is that it will probably happen again with this crew when one of the cops gets a little too power mad and no one else stops him because it was told to us numerous times that Dawn was the second bad regime so the cycle will probably continue. As for what the orderlies were doing, probably stuff like farming, breeding those guinea pigs, collecting water, and other important survival tasks that the cops didn't seem to be bothered by. Because the system they seem to have created is that if the cops ride around in their cop cars every once and awhile they could spend the rest of their time chilling out. Obviously this was an unsustainable system. After all, that rear end in a top hat was charging his DVD player every day. But it was all about the cops abusing their power. Not them all collectively deciding to become rapists.
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Dec 1, 2014 21:00
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twistedmentat posted:Was Cop Bob Sitwell from the Marvel films? Yes, that's the same actor.
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Dec 1, 2014 21:00
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Bigass Moth posted:Beth sucked and now she's dead. I heard she wanted to leave the show to pursue a career in singing.
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Dec 1, 2014 21:20
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I've been hate watching the gently caress out of this show for so long, I can't quit loving hospital, what a waste of time. Even having Beth stab Dawn in the eye, have Dawn shoot Beth, and then have Dawn say, "No! Wait!" to Darryl with loving scissors stuck in her eye would have been so much loving better.  What the hell, professional TV writers?
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Dec 1, 2014 21:25
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moths posted:I love Goblin, but Jesus imagine the pushback it would get in this thread... Not hating myself, I rarely read this thread.
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Dec 1, 2014 21:29
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