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crabrock posted:i swear whiskey is a cliche as much as any other thing. just mentioning whiskey makes me roll my eyes in pretty much anything. it's too much a "go-to" for "stoic man with stubble." Also smoking. I make too many of my characters smoke. It's a pretty easy way of showing things about a character I guess. What are they smoking, how the smoke it, what are they doing while they smoke, that sort of thing. It's so damned cliche and easy but I fall into it a lot. The smoking has a vague plot reason in my NaNo novel though so I'm allowing it.
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Nov 27, 2014 12:43
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PoshAlligator posted:Also smoking. I make too many of my characters smoke. Is your novel about the Jimmy Dean family
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Nov 27, 2014 12:49
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Little girls are already the people who drink whiskey, crabrock  Real men drink Thunderbird.
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Nov 27, 2014 17:38
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PoshAlligator posted:Also smoking. I make too many of my characters smoke. I was reading a book on directing movies which had this advice: quote:Never give your actors glasses, mugs, or cigarettes. Instead, make them act. Works for characters too.
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Nov 27, 2014 17:56
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Little girls are already the people who drink whiskey, crabrock MD 20/20, because if your alcohol doesn't threaten your eyesight, then what's the point of even drinking Real question: Anyone put some thought into the pros and cons of having a POV character who's separate from the protagonist? The only example I can think of is Sherlock Holmes, and it works there because they're all mystery stories and there's no suspense if weirdo detective spoils everything at the start.
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Nov 27, 2014 18:55
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Like any other deviate-from-the-norm choice, I feel it should be done only when it is more effective than the norm. Never just because. If a writer can't explain why they make a choice, they probably shouldn't make it
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Nov 27, 2014 18:58
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blue squares posted:Like any other deviate-from-the-norm choice, I feel it should be done only when it is more effective than the norm. Never just because. If a writer can't explain why they make a choice, they probably shouldn't make it My ~*artistic vision*~.
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Nov 27, 2014 19:01
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Edward_Tohr posted:My ~*artistic vision*~. Valid for a first draft, but for revisions the intellectual aspect is more important
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Nov 27, 2014 19:13
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Disclaimer: I'm an idiot and not that good at writing First person peripheral, which is what you're describing, is kind of the link between third person and first person PoV. The most famous novel I can think of that uses this is The Great Gatsby. Pros: The narrator has a real, physical impact on the story (compare to third-person, where usually the narrator is independent from the story). The narrator's character influences how the story is told (while this also occurs in third person, it feels a bit stronger in first person peripheral) Cons: We don't get to see what the protag is feeling More focus may become placed on the narrator rather then the protag, which if done poorly, can make your story less interesting. If your narrator isn't an interesting or important character, the reader can get bored of your narrator pretty quickly. First person peripheral isn't all that bad, and can be something worth experimenting with. Consider writing a scene or a two from different PoVs and see how they change that scene, or if it's a short story, write the whole thing in a different PoV. Some stories work better with first person, other with third, and some with the more uncommon PoVs. I wouldn't say that have first person peripheral is a deal breaker in a story, and if you want to work with it, then go right ahead. Just don't do it to do it. Make it have an actual impact in your story.
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Nov 27, 2014 19:25
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The reason I entertain the idea is because the protagonist is a dim, "ask no questions, do as I'm told" type, and the POV character is a well-educated historian who would be filling in context so the audience doesn't have a pair of blinders on. But you're all right; the answer is to just give it a test run in a first draft and see how it pans out.
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Nov 27, 2014 19:27
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inthesto posted:The reason I entertain the idea is because the protagonist is a dim, "ask no questions, do as I'm told" type, and the POV character is a well-educated historian who would be filling in context so the audience doesn't have a pair of blinders on. Why not combine the two into an Indiana Jones sort? That sounds way better and like the kind of iconic, larger than life character that great stories are centered around
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Nov 27, 2014 19:41
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inthesto posted:The reason I entertain the idea is because the protagonist is a dim, "ask no questions, do as I'm told" type, and the POV character is a well-educated historian who would be filling in context so the audience doesn't have a pair of blinders on. I think it would take a lot of fancy footwork to get a dim, "ask no questions, do as I'm told" type to be an interesting protagonist, even if the narrator is a fascinating and insightful sidekick.
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Nov 27, 2014 20:20
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Sitting Here posted:I think it would take a lot of fancy footwork to get a dim, "ask no questions, do as I'm told" type to be an interesting protagonist, even if the narrator is a fascinating and insightful sidekick. Agreed
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Nov 27, 2014 20:29
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I dunno, the adventures of Gunner Jurgen and his sidekick Ciaphas Cain are pretty thrilling.
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Nov 28, 2014 06:23
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I haven't written anything in days and it is killing me inside. Is there a way to get back into the swing of things because all I want is to be able to write down stuff everyday for at least a week.
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Nov 28, 2014 07:04
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There is no way that I know of, writing is a loving rough gig.
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Nov 28, 2014 07:16
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I was wondering about the rules that people set for themselves for writing a set number of words per day. I find that on a weekly basis I spend maybe one or two days of the week actually producing a new short story, but then the other days I spend revising things I've already written or rewriting. I take two days off to do workshops with people I know, but I'm curious if rewriting "counts" toward word counts.
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Nov 29, 2014 08:02
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I've been going with a combination of pomodoro technique and flexible goals. I stick rigidly with 30 minutes writing / 10 minutes break until I've done a minimum 500 words. My goal is 1k, after which I tend to relax the restrictions on my working environment (no distractions etc). If I reach 2k I call it a day and reward myself (unless I'm doing a first draft, in which case I just see how much I can get down before my brain craps out). I will openly acknowledge though that I can only do this because I am unemployed scum stealing all your hard earned taxes (joke is on you, I can't claim benefits). I think 500 minimum / 1,000 goal is pretty reasonable for most people though.
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Nov 29, 2014 09:18
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PoshAlligator posted:Also smoking. I make too many of my characters smoke. All my ruggedest cowboys chain smoke e-cigs from their neon-lit e-cig bandolier.
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Nov 29, 2014 16:49
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Is writing the same as other creative disciplines in that if I get feedback from a layman, I should take it with a grain of salt? When someone says, "Oh my god I love this, I would totally read it if it was a novel," how should I take that feedback? As a person who has dabbled in photography, I've gotten used to people overhyping the photography of others, leading to a false sense of confidence (and the millions of momtographers on facebook).
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Dec 1, 2014 01:36
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Liam Emsa posted:Is writing the same as other creative disciplines in that if I get feedback from a layman, I should take it with a grain of salt? Unsolicited praise is always worth listening to. Praise that refers to an emotional or physical reaction on the part of the reader is always worth listening to. If you get reactions like that from different people to the same story you can probably consider that story a good one. Otherwise it's all p much jibber jabber and you should be seeking the most lacerating brutal critique you can. Being told you're great does you very little good.
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Dec 1, 2014 02:04
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Pretty much as with any other art, it's impossibly to say as a general rule whether any given piece of feedback is something you should listen to. It's down to the talent and credibility of the person giving the feedback. You need to have enough confidence and swagger to move forward with your writing, discard cheap shots, and disregard good advice that simply doesn't mesh with your goals - but enough humility to accept critique from those who either know how to write better than you or correctly identify weaknesses in your approach. e since seb has good advice: Specificity is really important in 'good' praise, since it helps you know what you're doing right and how you connected to the reader. I don't think a writer can get by on hurt alone, though. Positive feedback is useful too, when it's the kind of praise you can internalize. You need it as a talisman to overcome your own neuroses and fears and push forward. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 02:06
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people don't have to be a good writer though to think something sucks, just like i can hate a movie even though i'm pretty sure i'd be worse than michael bay at directing one.
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Dec 1, 2014 02:25
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General Battuta posted:Pretty much as with any other art, it's impossibly to say as a general rule whether any given piece of feedback is something you should listen to. It's down to the talent and credibility of the person giving the feedback. You need to have enough confidence and swagger to move forward with your writing, discard cheap shots, and disregard good advice that simply doesn't mesh with your goals - but enough humility to accept critique from those who either know how to write better than you or correctly identify weaknesses in your approach. Well put. To quote Robert Brockway: Being a writer means having a tenuous balance between arrogance and self hatred. You have to be cocky enough to believe, a propos of nothing, that what comes out of your brain is worth putting into the brains of others. And yet you have to despise yourself enough to be able to reject the terrible premises, spot your own flaws, and edit that crap into something worth actually putting into your reader’s brain-holes.
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Dec 1, 2014 02:59
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crabrock posted:people don't have to be a good writer though to think something sucks, just like i can hate a movie even though i'm pretty sure i'd be worse than michael bay at directing one. you're just less likely to know why it sucks is all
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Dec 1, 2014 03:35
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LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:you're just less likely to know why it sucks is all This clearly doesn't apply to me because as we all know I know everything
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Dec 1, 2014 04:32
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If my friends or family read my stories, I try to lead them into giving me specific feedback, particularly specific negative feedback. If they aren't used to critiquing stuff then finding out things like where they stopped reading or wanted to stop are the best.
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Dec 1, 2014 04:57
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The Saddest Rhino posted:This clearly doesn't apply to me because as we all know I know everything and sound like Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang to boot
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Dec 1, 2014 05:00
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Is it generally true that advice from laymen who openly disparage reading, literature, and books is bad advice, though? As in "ugh, I hate books but I really liked yours, dude!"/"ugh, I know I hate books in general but I'm pretty sure I'd hate yours even if I didn't, dude".
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Dec 1, 2014 07:18
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I don't know if there's a general answer to that question. Maybe you should lay out your situation?
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Dec 1, 2014 08:36
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Let us all read your thing, then we will tell you if it's good or bad.
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Dec 1, 2014 08:44
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I made a thread, read it! ----------- On a separate note, I've been searching all over town for "Violence: A Writer's Guide" by Rory Miller. Finally asked the librarian about the ILL program. Turns out there's literally only one copy of that book in any library in the entire world and it's in Boise, ID. I should receive it in a few weeks.
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Dec 2, 2014 19:57
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Liam Emsa posted:I made a thread, read it! There's also a $6 ebook version on Amazon that you can access even without owning an e-reader, in case ILLs don't let you hold onto the book for long enough.
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Dec 2, 2014 20:23
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Getting excited about a new project idea, YA with a sic fi twist. I wanna do it in first person. Any tips/hazards I need to be cognizant of before making the switch from writing primarily in third person? Thanks in advance.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:24
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I have found that it gets really easy to slip into using "I" every single sentence. I catch myself doing it a lot. I think it causes dull prose. I got nothing other than that.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:29
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blue squares posted:I have found that it gets really easy to slip into using "I" every single sentence. I catch myself doing it a lot. I think it causes dull prose. I got nothing other than that. Also you could look at it in terms of academic paragraph construction. A tip I was given is that you put the main point in the first line of the paragraph, the next offers evidence (or for fiction, description), and the next offers a mini summation of the above. Like so: quote:I walked into the room and saw the body. Light filtered in through the stained glass window, painting the scene with a latticework of unsettling colours. It seemed an odd choice of decor for an office. Don't worry about this too much on the first draft or you'll drive yourself mad. Ideas first, readability flow later. That probably wasn't a great example because I'm just waking up. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Dec 3, 2014 |
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Dec 3, 2014 08:59
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No, that's good stuff, thanks. I'm getting excited about attempting to communicate a real voice and point of view, though I am really aware of how much I can just fall on my face. Plan on posting something like a first draft hereabouts eventually. Interested to see what you guys make of it.
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Dec 3, 2014 15:22
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To expand and clarify a little on Bobby's point: when you describe things, it's understood you're using the lens of the narrator-protagonist. You don't have to say "I saw a man on the nude beach, he had flawless abdominals and a magnificent penis," you just describe him and the reader knows it's through the narrator's eyes. Like Bobby said, it's fine to start the initial sentence with I since you're probably describing an action that leads to the descriptions and/or other actions that will build the scene. There are a ton of first-person novels and shorts out there, I suggest you read a bunch and pay attention to how they construct sentences and paragraphs.
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Dec 3, 2014 15:41
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Shageletic posted:Getting excited about a new project idea, YA with a sic fi twist. I wanna do it in first person. Any tips/hazards I need to be cognizant of before making the switch from writing primarily in third person? Thanks in advance. I really enjoy writing in first-person. It has a lot of advantages, but you have to make full use of them to 'justify' using it over the more default third-person. In first-person you can use a more unique voice and get further in the character's head, and since first-person allows this, you must actually do it. Don't write in first-person and have a really stale and bland voice! One thing to watch out for though is your choice of tense. You see first-person present a lot (especially in YA distopian scifi) because it's hard to frame the story if you use past tense. If you have a first-person narrator using past tense, the implication is that the narrator is alive in the future to recount the story. If you write a whole story in first-person past, and decide at the last minute to make your character die, it will be very jarring, and you'll probably have to go back and make it either third-person or present tense to fix it. For most readers, there is also an understanding when a story is first-person past that the narrator survives the whole story, so you lose a lot of potential tension of "will the protag survive this?" If you kill the protag anyway and imply some bullshit about the protag seeing their body as their soul goes up into the air or something dumb, or a 'life-flashing-before-their-eyes was the whole story' then shift to present tense for them to die, the reader will feel betrayed and annoyed. First-person past also allows you to add in lines like, "I didn't know it at the time, but" which can be either very effective or very lovely depending on your execution. Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun trilogy makes nice use of first-person past and effectively uses devices that remind you that the story is framed by a future protagonist telling the story. Obviously your POV shifting is very limited if you do first-person. Nothing can happen outside of what your protagonist senses, and for certain stories this can be a huge problem. If you do something like have two first-person POVs, or if you switch to minor POVs there's a big risk it will come off as gimmicky, and if you find yourself wanting to do this, third-person is likely the better option. Think about stories you read that had multiple POVs. They often have different POVs starting in different places, and the rising action-->climax is often the POV characters getting closer and closer together until all their threads suddenly tie together. For a first-person story you cannot do this, and your protagonist therefore needs to be really interesting since the POV will inherently give less focus to side characters. Third-person past is definitely the 'default' and easiest style to pull off since it has less pronounced advantages and disadvantages. I would honestly just write in whatever the gently caress tense/POV you want and experiment with all of them. You'll find out most of this stuff on your own through trial and error. Getting to the end of the story and realizing your ending can't work because of your tense/POV choice is the best way to internalize the mistake. Once you've done a lot of different tense/POVs you'll have a good ability to think through what you want to do and what would be most effective before you even write down a single word. angel opportunity fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Dec 3, 2014 |
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Dec 3, 2014 15:47
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I didn't even think about how doing first person would affect my tenses! That's a lot to consider, and my first instinct is to use present, which provides its own host of issues, as evidenced by the last couple of pages in this thread. The lack of another POV is something I am less worried about. Excited about even. The current thing I'm writing really relies on it, and to hunker down on one person's viewpoint, to narrow my world to what they see, is a refreshing change of pace for me. The other issue I'm having is writing like a teenager. Trying to minimize the amount verbiage, and max up the less mature aspects of my personality is my first initial steps I think. Either way, its gonna be a bit of a ride. EDIT: Concurrently reading The Chocolate War. YA can get bruuuutal. Shageletic fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Dec 3, 2014 |
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Dec 3, 2014 16:07
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