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Xander77 posted:? emanresu tnuocca posted:You're probably right, can't say I have any memory of previous election polls. Short of that one election poll back in... 1996? where all of us Noar Avoda kiddies where celebrating Peres's reelection when we went to sleep and woke up to Bibi being the PM. Hadash's Wikipedia article posted:The party supports evacuation of all Israeli settlements, a complete withdrawal by Israel from all territories occupied as a result of the Six-Day War, and the establishment of a Palestinian state in those territories. It also supports the right of return or compensation for Palestinian refugees. In addition to issues of peace and security, Hadash is also known for being active on social and environmental issues.  Also go vote drat you. Seriously please go vote, we need a couple million Israels like you in order to start unfucking the country. (Or at least try to keep the slaughters to a minimum until the US eventually stops unconditionally supporting Israel, and we can have an actual peace process.) Related, can you please do a general rundown on all of Israel's various political parties? (Even just a couple sentences with personal insights would be useful.) I know very little about them besides the fact that Bibi is part of Likud, which gives me a general idea of what Likud believes. fade5 fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Dec 2, 2014 |
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CommieGIR posted:Note: This is the country that accuses all of its critics of being anti-Semites while actively carrying out policies similar to the Warsaw Ghetto. Yes how terrible it would be for someone to reflexively grasp for hyperbolic Nazi analogies to describe Israeli politicians with whom they disagree 
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Dec 3, 2014 00:08
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The Insect Court posted:Yes how terrible it would be for someone to reflexively grasp for hyperbolic Nazi analogies to describe Israeli politicians with whom they disagree fo sho, faux shoah
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Dec 3, 2014 00:11
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The Insect Court posted:Yes how terrible it would be for someone to reflexively grasp for hyperbolic Nazi analogies to describe Israeli politicians with whom they disagree It's not terrible, it's just funny. Cabinet intrigue is probably the activity least like Nazi Germany that happens in Israel.
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Dec 3, 2014 00:32
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Darth Walrus posted:Care to elaborate? I know about his mealy-mouthed comments on the evils of miscegnation, but a bunch of Israeli posters on another forum have been singing his praises and I want more ammo. So I'll start with the fact that I never like Lapid, yes there might be some personal bias here, I always thought he was a mega douchy character, a more style than substance kind of guy who was really trying too hard to be this sort of all-israeli darling, when he was a talk show host it was all this milquetoast schmaltz sucking up to pretty much every important guest he's ever had and never really demonstrating that he had any worthwhile opinions of his own. He's of course also an author and had a very successful and popular weekly column, which was once again emotional schmaltz about what it means to be an Israeli and being proto-hipster in Tel-Aviv, at that time though he allowed himself to occasionally express left of center political opinions, the most prominent example of this is when he wrote about a recent IDF child killing incident that 'when you kill enough children it eventually becomes what you are, a child killer' (slightly paraphrased), traces of these sort of non-mainstream opinions have been completely removed since he decided to become a politician of course. Now, before the elections he declared that he will refuse to be a part of a coalition that does not promote a "diplomatic process" (and Livni but that's another story about a different horrible person) which is of course the colloquial Hebrew code for 'working towards a peaceful solution with the Palestinians through negotiations and good faith', he sat in Bibi's government for almost two years during which he fanned the flames during protective edge, sworn vengeance for the three murdered teenagers, and never once made any public statements relating to the peace process or negotiations, let alone bring anything new to the table. Now the real funny thing is the Lapid hitched himself to the big He managed to achieve nothing during his tenure, Bibi was basically stringing him along on the minor tax reforms he wanted to pass, letting Lapid appear more and more ineffective in the eyes of the public until eventually when Lapid has set an ultimatum in regards to the reforms Bibi just went "gently caress off, let's go for elections". Which managed to even further trivialize everything Lapid allegedly worked for cause now it all goes to the garbage. He also likes to pretend he's way better educated than he actually is, often mis-attributing quotes from works he clearly never read. All in all a clown, and his party members have mostly proven themselves to be clowns as well. I really don't understand how anyone could hitch their hopes to this hot air baloon of a person. Absurd Alhazred posted:It isn't a matter of them being dense, it's a matter of this being such a basic part of common parlance that trying to make a connection between this and Netanyahu's "Iran is Germany and this is 1938" bullshit is just reaching. No Israeli is going to make that connection, it's become a dead metaphor at this point. Well, obviously there is an hebrew word for coup as you well know and indeed it ain't putsch but just to reaffirm what you're saying here to all the doubters, while its true that the obvious original connotation of this term when was in colloquial Hebrew is Hitler's famous putsch it is indeed taken as meaning 'an underhanded attempt to depose a leader or a regime', and no Netanyahu is not invoking intentional Nazi imagery he's merely calling his former ministers traitors. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Dec 3, 2014 |
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Dec 3, 2014 00:38
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Can we get some election discussion, then? Who are the parties standing to gain in the current climate, and does Netanyahu have a real chance of losing the PM spot? If he retains it with a more right-wing coalition, can we expect another war in Gaza or the West Bank soon or will they wait the usual two-years after the last one? What impact will the mounting tensions in Jerusalem and the West Bank in general have?
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Dec 3, 2014 01:45
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Flowers For Algeria posted:No one cares about this stupid analogy, you're all responding to MIGF again you chodes. I think this stuff is actually pretty heartening. Of course its not going to change anything quickly, but it signals part of a broader shifting towards the side of the Palestinians outside of the Middle East. Traditionally European states haven't recognised them. Cameron must be pissed as hell about us passing it, meaningless gesture or not, we're lovely enough at politics that Israel could easily raise a stink about cancelling arms deals to Israel from the UK. They'd never do it because they need them, but any person or nation even vaguely wealthy could con Cameron into buying his own mother. Also putsch is a pretty common word for coup, yeah, especially considering many Israelis are of European ancestry.
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Dec 3, 2014 01:56
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Dolash posted:Can we get some election discussion, then? Who are the parties standing to gain in the current climate, and does Netanyahu have a real chance of losing the PM spot? If he retains it with a more right-wing coalition, can we expect another war in Gaza or the West Bank soon or will they wait the usual two-years after the last one? What impact will the mounting tensions in Jerusalem and the West Bank in general have? I doubt there will be another full-blown war in Gaza, at least not for a year. Just a guess. If there is a more right-wing coalition (likely) voted in, then I expect tensions will increase over Jerusalem/West Bank.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:03
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emanresu tnuocca posted:So I'll start with the fact that I never like Lapid, yes there might be some personal bias here, I always thought he was a mega douchy character, a more style than substance kind of guy who was really trying too hard to be this sort of all-israeli darling, when he was a talk show host it was all this milquetoast schmaltz sucking up to pretty much every important guest he's ever had and never really demonstrating that he had any worthwhile opinions of his own. He's of course also an author and had a very successful and popular weekly column, which was once again emotional schmaltz about what it means to be an Israeli and being proto-hipster in Tel-Aviv, at that time though he allowed himself to occasionally express left of center political opinions, the most prominent example of this is when he wrote about a recent IDF child killing incident that 'when you kill enough children it eventually becomes what you are, a child killer' (slightly paraphrased), traces of these sort of non-mainstream opinions have been completely removed since he decided to become a politician of course. Don't forget that this guy got every single break in his life from his dad, Yosef "Tommy" Lapid, being a prominent journalist and political functionary, as well as an MK for two Knessets leading the Shinui Party, one of the previous protest parties who ended up not really living up to its promise. "Yesh Atid Lachilonim" ("There's a Torch for Secular Jews") was a prominent campaign slogan. The guy basically plagiarized his party's name from his Dad. An utter empty suit. quote:Well, obviously there is an hebrew word for coup as you well know and indeed it ain't putsch but just to reaffirm what you're saying here to all the doubters, while its true that the obvious original connotation of this term when was in colloquial Hebrew is Hitler's famous putsch it is indeed taken as meaning 'an underhanded attempt to depose a leader or a regime', and no Netanyahu is not invoking intentional Nazi imagery he's merely calling his former ministers traitors. I haven't lost it completely yet!  Dolash posted:Can we get some election discussion, then? Who are the parties standing to gain in the current climate, and does Netanyahu have a real chance of losing the PM spot? If he retains it with a more right-wing coalition, can we expect another war in Gaza or the West Bank soon or will they wait the usual two-years after the last one? What impact will the mounting tensions in Jerusalem and the West Bank in general have? First, I'll repost this from emanresu: emanresu tnuocca posted:Channel 2 poll results: Likud - 22, Jewish Home - 17, Labor - 13, Yesh Atid - 9, Yisrael Beitenu - 10, Shas - 9, Moshe Kahlon's new party - 10, Torah Judaism - 8, Meretz - 7, Arab parties - 11, Livni's "Hatnua" - 4. I think the reality may be somewhat different, but ultimately along similar lines as far as the coalition is concerned. Let's start with those who might lose a lot: the Arab parties (and the reason Hadash is included is because it has such a prominent role for Arabs, not just because any Arabs are there; there are a few Arabs in Meretz, Yisrael Beitenu has a Bedouin or two, etc) stand to lose a lot due to the rise of the election threshold. Fortunately, on the one hand, there is apparently strong support in the Knesset for delaying the validity of this threshold until the elections after the next, and on the other, there have been talks between the Arab parties to run as a single list and then split seats among themselves in a somewhat proportional manner (as Likud and Yisrael Beitenu did in the last elections) in order to guarantee the ability to get people in. That could be a serious big deal, especially if this results in a successful campaign to encourage Israeli Arabs to vote, as they have many constituencies which simply boycott the elections. A lot of untapped potential there, although to be clear, we are still talking a minority even if we take them and the left Zionists together. Shas and United Torah have solid constituencies and have sat this financially unpopular government out in the opposition, so they could definitely see some gains. Shas also projects itself as a representative for all Mizrahi Jews in a way that takes up Likud's historic base, so they may make gains at their expense. Likud? Depends. If they don't oust Netanyahu it's going to be down to brass tacks, as in the people who would vote Likud even if it were led by Arafat. I could see them losing to Israel Beitenu and Jewish Home. Also, if the openly active fascists give them more exposure, you could see Kachniks like Ben Ari back in, although if the threshold is still high, they may not get enough of that. Yesh Atid's folks will probably split between Labor and Meretz, mostly, I think. In any event, I see a right-wing populist government in Israel's future.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:05
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Dolash posted:Can we get some election discussion, then? Who are the parties standing to gain in the current climate, and does Netanyahu have a real chance of losing the PM spot? If he retains it with a more right-wing coalition, can we expect another war in Gaza or the West Bank soon or will they wait the usual two-years after the last one? What impact will the mounting tensions in Jerusalem and the West Bank in general have? It's a little early to draw any conclusions, but I'd say it was a pretty calculated move by Netanyahu to go for elections right now as the polls clearly demonstrate. His coalition with Lapid and Livni wasn't really a natural one for him, they played along with him up until now but he's pretty much dropping them at the first opportunity, Lapid is losing 10 seats, more than halving his power and setting him pretty much on the same route his father's party "Shinui" went through, and Kadima for that purpose, guess he won't get to be a PM afterall, despite his cocky remarks, Livni was in the first place a sort of a compromise Bibi had to make, taking a small party with only 6 seats and giving Livni a minister position is clearly not ideal, small parties that can collapse your government always enjoy the sort of influence you wouldn't want them to have on you, particularly not considering how little they offer in return. So, given that the natural allies for Bibi were always Benett and Liberman, the polls clearly suggest that we're going to get more of the same. Liberman will grow slightly weaker but this is largely compensated by Likud gaining an additional 4 seats, Benett is making a huge leap from 13 seats to 17 seats. So basically, the big winners are Bibi and Benett, barring some dramatic shifts it's hard to imagine Labor/Meretz/Lapid/Livni (an uneasy alliance in the first place) managing to consolidate a majority. The real funny thing is that after all of this, once Bibi made Lapid eat his humble pie, there's a pretty good chance Lapid will be a part of the next coalition as well, just so Bibi could have a little more leverage vis-a-vis Benett. But it's really more of the same, how rightwing a government is has little correlation to Israel's inclination to go to war, as I said before, it's not like the current government showed any restraint, or the previous one, or the one before that. So yeah, another massacre in two years or so, unless things flare up dramatically in the west bank. And yeah, the tensions in Jerusalem might yet play a role in these elections but likely only pushing more voters rightwards, unrest in the occupied territories generally strengthens the racist right wing tendencies of Israeli voters, the only case where this was any different was the first Intifada and Rabin's election, I doubt we're gonna see a repeat of that given the current mindset.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:19
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FlamingLiberal posted:He has little chance of losing his job. If there was a decent chance he would not have triggered the elections to begin with. Oh, yeah. I'd be pretty surprised to see the lawn-mowing resumed within a year. I'd guess they'll kill another couple thousand Palestinians some time before 2018 and definitely before 2020. Was Gaza still under attack during the Lebanon war? If so they could have some respite if Israel has another go at its neighbours.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:20
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The clockwork scheduling of Israel's military ventures, and how they tie into election politics, is somehow creepier than if they simply followed bloodthirsty right-wing rhetoric all the way and drove the Palestinians into the desert/the sea. It's strange to think that a more right-wing coalition that's advocated for putting an end to the Gaza situation in ominous tones will, practically speaking, probably just maintain the same status quo. It's like how here in Canada the Liberals bring up a national childcare program or legalizing marijuana, while the Conservatives talk about expanding the military or hinting about reopening the abortion issue, but they never do it. It's just sort of electioneering window-dressing meant to rally the base that neither is really all that invested in carrying out. Except replace those issues with a massive military occupation. I suppose so long as Netanyahu retains control, there's no risk of a True Believer who'd try to implement some grand explusion or complete conquest of the Palestinians? Just of the slow squeeze. Dolash fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Dec 3, 2014 |
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Dec 3, 2014 02:32
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The most unusual thing about the Israelis isn't their brutality - it's their restraint. In the thousands-of-years history of the Middle East it's normal (even expected) for different cultures bordering one another to engage in violent conflict, especially when they claim the same lands. Historically I'd have expected Israel to have wiped out Palestine completely by now, given the power imbalance. The constraints of modern society, media, public opinion, international institutions and the need for legitimacy hold Israel in check to a degree, but leave the Palestinians in a permanent awkward state of limbo. Certainly if Saddam Hussein, Bashar al-Assad or Hafez al-Assad were in Israel's position, they'd have solved the Gaza problem a long time ago. There'd have been one giant war with hundreds of thousands dead and the remaining millions exiled, but it would be over with at least.
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Dec 3, 2014 02:38
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Netanyahu has probably the most messianic Israeli politician holding a top ranking spot in his own party, Moshe Feiglin. All in all Israel is following the strategy secretly laid out by Netanyahu and Sharon in the early 2,000s, Bibi is acting exactly in accordance to the strategy he shares in the "secret recording" of a private meeting he had with that settler family which is exactly what Sharon said (paraphrasing) "Build now, build on every hill top, cause wherever we build we get to keep, the rest they will eventually have". This strategy seems to appease the messianic right, keep the world out of Israel's hair while radicalizing our the Jewish population to the point where they grow more sympathetic to the settlers. Also this needs to be posted: 
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Dec 3, 2014 02:44
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Eregos posted:The most unusual thing about the Israelis isn't their brutality - it's their restraint. In the thousands-of-years history of the Middle East it's normal (even expected) for different cultures bordering one another to engage in violent conflict, especially when they claim the same lands. Historically I'd have expected Israel to have wiped out Palestine completely by now, given the power imbalance. The constraints of modern society, media, public opinion, international institutions and the need for legitimacy hold Israel in check to a degree, but leave the Palestinians in a permanent awkward state of limbo. Israel's "restraint" is not all that unique. Even in the scary Middle East (as if historical European statecraft was somehow less brutal) its reasonably common to conquer territory then stick the conquered into cantons by ethnicity or nationality. Integrating some and attacking other cantons is also not that uncommon. Sure, Israel's annexation of Palestine has been slowed down by the UN, same as Saddam eventually had to stop gassing the kurds. Just look at the shrinking map of Palestine though, its still annexation with the end result if Israel keeps up its policies being a choice between (at best) permanent demi-citizenship in a hostile country or death and exile for the Palestinians. But yeah, there is a lot of talk about Israel being unique but this poo poo literally happens constantly throughout history, its more or less how every single colonising nation got started. The only difference is Israel has what may as well be an infinite military, economic and political edge supplied by the current dominant world power so can afford to take its time. I agree though, that global public opinion has emerged as a new factor in the modern world, having gone from absolutely no importance to somewhat important. e: I was gonna add that they were sorta unusual in that this usually isn't done by enlightned, educated nations, then I laughed and laughed. (Because those nations do it even more, not because Israelis are unenlightened dummies.) Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Dec 3, 2014 |
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Dec 3, 2014 02:54
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Eregos posted:
The Assads and Saddam literally had large fractious ethnic groups they didn't/haven't exterminated, as nopantsjack also more or less references.
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Dec 3, 2014 03:07
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Lately I'm sort of starting to doubt that people are capable of empathy period, but let's give this a try: You walk into the wrong neighborhood (motherfucker). I walk up to you and punch you in the face, then steal the cash from your wallet. At which point I go "hey, anyone else would have been looting your violated corpse by now". Does that actually make you feel better, even if true? Does it change how you're going to act? Xander77 fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Dec 3, 2014 |
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Dec 3, 2014 07:43
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Xander77 posted:Lately I'm sort of starting to doubt that people are capable of empathy period, but let's give this a try: You sure you wanted to bring GreyjoyBastard into this?
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Dec 3, 2014 07:56
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At this point, what difference does it make?
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Dec 3, 2014 08:05
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Xander77 posted:At this point, what difference does it make? Well, Madame Secretary, they're not both making the same point, and in fact I think GB was actually making a similar point to you, so I think it's counterproductive to group them together in a way that might multiply your foes unnecessarily.
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Dec 3, 2014 08:12
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Eregos posted:Certainly if Saddam Hussein, Bashar al-Assad or Hafez al-Assad were in Israel's position, they'd have solved the Gaza problem a long time ago. There'd have been one giant war with hundreds of thousands dead and the remaining millions exiled, but it would be over with at least. This is a salient point indeed! Saddam Hussein long had a problem with Kurds, and he got solve this problem by entirely exterminating every single one of them. The current situation in Iraq is a logical followup to the fact that there are no Kurds there anymore at all. Oh wait, actually Kurds are still out there and holding their ground against Daesh better than the Iraqi gov't troops. Looks like Saddam's Kurd problem wasn't really over. Maybe Saddam Hussein and Israel have shown the exact same amount of restraint when dealing with their problem?
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Dec 3, 2014 11:41
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israel is terrible but saddam hussein used chemical weapons on his own nationals and was guilty of graver human rights abuses than israel has been thus far, this is stupid, thansk that's my input edit: white phosphorus doesn't loving count Homura and Sickle fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Dec 3, 2014 |
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Dec 3, 2014 11:51
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Yeah there are regimes, both historical and current, which were way worse than Israel, it's kind of a pointless derail. The thing with Israel is that what we're doing is utterly pointless and self defeating, I know it's kind of a racist orientalist cliche but for me (and I think for many others) this conflict is particularly painful cause despite the colonialist nature of the zionist enterprise there was absolutely no need for things to get to this point, not only could the Israelis and the Palestinians co-exist peacefully but it could have been a mutually prosperous relationship for both people and a stabilizing influence on the entire region. Now I know some Palestinians might consider the above to be a paternalistic and false premise given the Nakba and everything but I still think there's truth to it, if Israel used its post 1948 position to become a benevolent regional power and to work towards appeasement and reconciliation things would have never escalated to the these levels of hatred and hostility. It's genuinely absurd that this completely avoidable 70 year-old conflict would be perceived as a centuries long blood feud which can only ever be resolved through the extermination of one (or both) people, and it's all the working of cynical and greedy Israeli politicians.
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Dec 3, 2014 12:40
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Netanyahu has probably the most messianic Israeli politician holding a top ranking spot in his own party, Moshe Feiglin. All in all Israel is following the strategy secretly laid out by Netanyahu and Sharon in the early 2,000s, Bibi is acting exactly in accordance to the strategy he shares in the "secret recording" of a private meeting he had with that settler family which is exactly what Sharon said (paraphrasing) "Build now, build on every hill top, cause wherever we build we get to keep, the rest they will eventually have". This strategy seems to appease the messianic right, keep the world out of Israel's hair while radicalizing our the Jewish population to the point where they grow more sympathetic to the settlers. Got a source for that conversation? I'm having a tough time digging it up.
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Dec 3, 2014 12:49
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Nobody goes around calling the Iraqi Army the Most Moral Army in the world. That's the difference.
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Dec 3, 2014 12:49
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Darth Walrus posted:Got a source for that conversation? I'm having a tough time digging it up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeT_KLuCdug
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Dec 3, 2014 12:51
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I know it's kind of a racist orientalist cliche but for me (and I think for many others) this conflict is particularly painful cause despite the colonialist nature of the zionist enterprise there was absolutely no need for things to get to this point, not only could the Israelis and the Palestinians co-exist peacefully but it could have been a mutually prosperous relationship for both people and a stabilizing influence on the entire region. 1. "racist orientalist cliche"? 2. People tend to bring up "but it's not just Israel-Palestine, it's Israel-Arab World" when discussing Israel's actions, where it's less than entirely relevant. But if you're talking about could have beens, you have to account for the fact that the Arab world did its level best to turn this into an eternal conflict.
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Dec 3, 2014 12:55
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrtuBas3Ipw Sharon's quote: quote:בסתיו 1998, לקראת החתימה על הסכם וואי, כיהן אריאל שרון כשר חוץ בממשלתו של בנימין quote:In the fall of 1998, shortly before the signing of the Wye River Memorandum, Sharon served as the Foreign Minister in Benjamin Netanyahu's government. Sharon has called for the settlers to seize to the best of their ability every uninhibited hilltop in the west bank for "That which you seize will be ours, that which you don't won't" emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Dec 3, 2014 |
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Dec 3, 2014 12:56
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Xander77 posted:1. "racist orientalist cliche"? 1. It always resonates for me with paternalistic quotes such as "the jews and the arabs are not inherently incompatible", don't remember who said that, or Orson Scott Card's fantasies about Jews being the masters of the middle east with the arabs being their willing laborers ushering a new age of prosperity. I do believe it could have been a mutually beneficial relationship but it's a bit of an iffy statement given that we did steal their lands. 2. This may be more than partially true but there have been plenty of Arab leaders over the years who sought to change things, particularly Saddat and Naser who offered venues to completely transform the regions perception of Israel. I don't disagree that certain cynical arab leaders (particularly the Jordanian royal family and the Sauds) have done plenty to ensure a process of normalization cannot take place.
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Dec 3, 2014 13:00
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Jagchosis posted:edit: white phosphorus doesn't loving count *eyebrows raise, leave forehead*
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Dec 3, 2014 15:25
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Panzeh posted:Nobody goes around calling the Iraqi Army the Most Moral Army in the world. That's the difference. There is that part.
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Dec 3, 2014 15:49
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Jagchosis posted:israel is terrible but saddam hussein used chemical weapons on his own nationals and was guilty of graver human rights abuses than israel has been thus far, this is stupid, thansk that's my input Did you know that gunpowder is a chemical??? Rocket fuel too!!! CHECK FACTS
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Dec 3, 2014 16:04
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Also unlike Iraq, the US sends twice its federal education budget to help Israel kill brown people, instead of invading the country to depose its leader.
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Dec 3, 2014 16:13
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Xander77 posted:2. People tend to bring up "but it's not just Israel-Palestine, it's Israel-Arab World" when discussing Israel's actions, where it's less than entirely relevant. But if you're talking about could have beens, you have to account for the fact that the Arab world did its level best to turn this into an eternal conflict. Well, the whole thing started with proto-Israel pulling off one of the most successful acts of ethnic cleansing in recent history. While I'm not gonna defend fuckers like the House of Saud, blaming Arabs for fighting back against an invasion seems disingenuous at best.
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Dec 3, 2014 16:32
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Muscle Tracer posted:Did you know that gunpowder is a chemical??? Rocket fuel too!!! CHECK FACTS Not sure what your point is, but dousing soldiers and civies in either of those and lighting them up would qualify as war crimes, like napalm. I'm not sure what the definition of a weapon is for it to be counted as a chemical weapon though.
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Dec 3, 2014 16:37
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MonsieurChoc posted:Well, the whole thing started with proto-Israel pulling off one of the most successful acts of ethnic cleansing in recent history. While I'm not gonna defend fuckers like the House of Saud, blaming Arabs for fighting back against an invasion seems disingenuous at best. Nah it was the A-rabs that started it.
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Dec 3, 2014 17:05
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Plek posted:Not sure what your point is, but dousing soldiers and civies in either of those and lighting them up would qualify as war crimes, like napalm. I'm not sure what the definition of a weapon is for it to be counted as a chemical weapon though. Actually, using incendiary weapons against combatants isn't a war crime, despite what is popularly believed. As to the second point, something has to use its toxicity as a primary wounding mechanism to be considered a chemical weapon, since a lot of materials used in military weapons (lead, for example, as well as many other metals) are toxic to humans. In the case of White Phosphorus, its chemical toxicity is very much secondary to its burning action.
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Dec 3, 2014 17:14
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Dead Reckoning posted:Actually, using incendiary weapons against combatants isn't a war crime, despite what is popularly believed. As to the second point, something has to use its toxicity as a primary wounding mechanism to be considered a chemical weapon, since a lot of materials used in military weapons (lead, for example, as well as many other metals) are toxic to humans. In the case of White Phosphorus, its chemical toxicity is very much secondary to its burning action. Its a grey area, white phosphorus is okay as long as the target is strictly military or the white phosphorus is part of a signaling or the ignition device which makes its burning effect secondary. Israel got called out because they directly used it against combatants mixed into a civilian population and its burning effect was the primary use.
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Dec 3, 2014 17:18
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That still doesn't magically reclassify it into a chemical weapon, or make using incendiary bombs on enemy soldiers a war crime. Which were the assertions I was responding to.
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Dec 3, 2014 17:45
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Dead Reckoning posted:That still doesn't magically reclassify it into a chemical weapon, or make using incendiary bombs on enemy soldiers a war crime. Which were the assertions I was responding to. No, its doesn't. Sorry, I misunderstood. Unfortunately, the issue was they were not dropping it on enemy soldiers alone. Israel tends to make sure they just barely skirt the line on war crimes while at the same time bounding over the line repeatedly because no one of any importance will call them on it.
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Dec 3, 2014 17:47
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