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Rocksicles posted:Arrow Cave I am not calling it that.
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Dec 4, 2014 07:08
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| # ? May 31, 2024 13:13 |
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Rocksicles posted:Arrow Cave 
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Dec 4, 2014 07:14
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"Is there an arrow-mobile?  "
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Dec 4, 2014 07:16
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I made some things, to celebrate. Apologies for my poo poo pixel/animation skills.  
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Dec 4, 2014 07:33
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Boogaleeboo posted:That's the point. How do you think he got to be the guy in the first season that would murder fools left right and center? It's because, among other things, he spent time as a government assassin working shadowy jobs of moral complexity for a woman who believes the ends justify the means. That's how he got from rich party boy to cold killer. And as he says to Barry, he feels like he's trading in his soul. Those are flashbacks, that is the point of them. They show the road to season one. Season three Ollie very much isn't happy with that part of himself. I do agree with his last point though, that it was really weird seeing him pull out a bow to torture the bomber in the flashback. I mean, maybe the writers thought it would look better than having him ripping off the guy's fingernails or something, but it was really strange and took me out of the episode for a bit.
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Dec 4, 2014 08:03
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Holy poo poo. "I'm sorry I'm not as emotionally stable as you" is one of the best lines I've ever heard.
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Dec 4, 2014 08:36
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Amell is more than willing to guest star on Gotham or Constantine The man is all kinds of awesome 
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Dec 4, 2014 08:48
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The Flash crossover really injected a lot of life into the tail-end of this season/cast. I felt it was flagging a lot, culminating in that dumb Cupid episode. Team Arrow was also getting pretty morose prior to the whole Flash thing, and the infectious impact of the Flash crew was noticeable to me at least.
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Dec 4, 2014 09:03
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Episode status: excellent. That said, I'm pretty much resigned to the Hong Kong flashbacks being completely unsalvageable. Now...at least the one this week actually applied, thematically, to the events of this episode. But every interaction between Oliver and Waller just shatters the bounds of sense and believability. Why does she need Oliver to torture information out of someone? Why is it his fault if he fails? Are we seriously supposed to believe that she doesn't have capable torturers on hand? And if she does, and instead uses a complete amateur instead of the ones she knows will get the job done, isn't it actually her fault if the job doesn't get done? Is Ollie simply too stupid to understand that? Is she? It's been eight episodes and there's still not a single logical explanation for why she even wants or needs him as an agent.
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Dec 4, 2014 10:13
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BrianWilly posted:Episode status: excellent. Having someone that everybody knows is dead is kind of handy. Imagine if it came to light that Elvis, JFK, Tupac, and Bigfoot were all torturing people for information about Bin Laden. Who is going to believe any of that?
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Dec 4, 2014 10:19
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How's that gonna matter if he ends up being a completely lovely agent, as opposed to the hundreds of other potential agents who could and would do his exact job without being lovely at it? The whole idea of forcing someone to train for a job that they don't want to do runs counter to all sense and rationale. This could apply to international assassinations or it could apply to carpentry; hands down, no exceptions, no ifs or buts, someone who wants to get better at any profession is going to do better, be more reliable, get more results than someone who is forced into it by duress. The only reason Waller would be going to these absurd lengths is if she absolutely needed Oliver Queen, and only Oliver Queen, to be her agent for some good reason and, like I said, it's been eight episodes and the show hasn't given us a hint of a good reason as to why the head of ARGUS forced a famous white guy to do wetwork in Hong Kong. Heck, the more I think about it the more idiotic it is.
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Dec 4, 2014 10:34
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BrianWilly posted:How's that gonna matter if he ends up being a completely lovely agent, as opposed to the hundreds of other potential agents who could and would do his exact job without being lovely at it?
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Dec 4, 2014 10:39
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 This was all that could go through my head every time Boomerang popped up.
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Dec 4, 2014 11:08
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BrianWilly posted:How's that gonna matter if he ends up being a completely lovely agent, as opposed to the hundreds of other potential agents who could and would do his exact job without being lovely at it? It's a test run for what will ultimately be the Suicide Squad. If you can turn what is functionally a half-crazed party boy with some light combat training and above average archery skills into a functional and willing operative, you can do it to anyone. And as she said, he's already dead. Not like anyone will miss him any more if she kills him.
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Dec 4, 2014 11:15
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The Suicide Squad isn't Mercenary Hogwarts, the whole point is that they're already top-notched skilled badasses, way better than any other prospective agents at what she wants them to do, no instructions involved or necessary. Why would Oliver Queen be a test-run for that, considering that she evidently needs to personally hold his hand through months or years of training that any other agent already has? And I don't know why people keep bringing up the "People already think he's dead so she can kill him without consequence" thing. It already made no sense when she said it in the first place to scare him into submission -- which, he already called her bluff on -- and the more that she keeps trotting out the only white guy on Hong Kong to do her job, the more likely it is that someone will recognize him and, welp, no one thinks Oliver Queen is dead anymore. Because on top of all the other stupidity about the situation, we're also meant to believe that Hong Kong is some sort of secluded tribal society where no one will recognize a famous American celebrity. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 11:59
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BrianWilly posted:The Suicide Squad isn't Mercenary Hogwarts, the whole point is that they're already top-notched skilled badasses But, you know, with a side of insanity and problems with authority. Hence the explosives. It's not training in their job they need, it's direction in following orders. The explosives aren't enough, as you notice in the first episode we have with them. She's seeing how far she can get with unorthodox and deniable assets, a process she will refine and step up in later years. Ollie has already proved through his time on the island that he's adaptable and willing to get physical. Also that he's moderately intelligent. What he isn't is a natural born killer, or predisposed to become a secret hitman for the government. That's the challenge. And if he fails, so what? It's only Hong Kong, and he's replaceable. And if he doesn't fail, well, you've proven you can take a wild talent and turn it to a productive use through threats and persuasion. It's a good start. quote:Because on top of all the other stupidity about the situation, we're also meant to believe that Hong Kong is some sort of secluded tribal society where no one will recognize a famous American celebrity. Not the parts he works in, and not the way he looks now. Oh if he had a shave and a haircut and was expected to blend in in a five star restaurant, sure. Random backroads and the house where his immigrant handlers live? Please.
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Dec 4, 2014 12:18
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Well I think the implication is that if he fucks up and she decides to kill him, then she can simply get rid of his body however she wants and no one is going to go looking for him or asking questions. And I don't think he's a celebrity, at least not yet. He's still just the missing and presumed dead slacker son of a rich guy, he hasn't had his face all over TV for coming back from the dead like when he finally returned. He's not quite Paris Hilton just yet. I mean, do you know what Bill Gates's kids look like?
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Dec 4, 2014 12:21
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It's a day later and I still can't really believe I just watched a show with Captain Boomerang in it, as a badass, who constantly made boomerang jokes, and they sold it as completely serious.
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Dec 4, 2014 13:36
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Two Tone Shoes posted:It's a day later and I still can't really believe I just watched a show with Captain Boomerang in it, as a badass, who constantly made boomerang jokes, and they sold it as completely serious. Why aren't we calling him Kaboomerang? 
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Dec 4, 2014 13:44
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BrianWilly posted:How's that gonna matter if he ends up being a completely lovely agent, as opposed to the hundreds of other potential agents who could and would do his exact job without being lovely at it? I think you are overstating how famous Oliver is. How many people would notice if one of the Walton siblings was sitting next to them on the train? Oliver may have a reputation in Starling, but unless he runs into someone who knew him, his chances of being recognized is almost zero. The fact that Waller is using Oliver in place of one of her many more qualified agents suggests that she needs him for something bigger. Risking a bomb go off in HK, based on whether Oliver will torture the information out of the guy in time is completely up her alley, as we have seen with her willing to shoot down a commercial flight with China White and 200 other innocent people on board. The Slade flashbacks would have seemed equally pointless until the latter half of season 2, had a large part of the audience not known who Slade is in the DC universe.
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Dec 4, 2014 14:48
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Two Tone Shoes posted:It's a day later and I still can't really believe I just watched a show with Captain Boomerang in it, as a badass, who constantly made boomerang jokes, and they sold it as completely serious. I was amazed by this, he was pretty badass and would he have killed Ollie without the Flash intervention? And now he's on an island with Slade... So which show will have the mass villain prison break first, Arrow or Flash?
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Dec 4, 2014 15:19
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Some Numbers posted:It's cute that you think someone who's been in The Quiver would have trouble piecing together that Oliver is the Arrow. Considering Wells figured it out in a few hours without having been there... I wouldn't be shocked if they're building up to Oliver either being outed publicly or being forced to out himself. The Feds (ARGUS) already know who he is, the cops don't care about arresting him anymore, everyone in Starling except Thea and Captain Lance seems to know anyway...
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Dec 4, 2014 15:26
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Boogaleeboo posted:But, you know, with a side of insanity and problems with authority. Hence the explosives. It's not training in their job they need, it's direction in following orders. The explosives aren't enough, as you notice in the first episode we have with them. She's seeing how far she can get with unorthodox and deniable assets, a process she will refine and step up in later years. Ollie has already proved through his time on the island that he's adaptable and willing to get physical. Also that he's moderately intelligent. What he isn't is a natural born killer, or predisposed to become a secret hitman for the government. That's the challenge. And if he fails, so what? It's only Hong Kong, and he's replaceable. And if he doesn't fail, well, you've proven you can take a wild talent and turn it to a productive use through threats and persuasion. It's a good start. Because Ollie already failed! His failure at torture cost the lives of innocents. And he's going to continue to fail, and fail spectacularly, since he's being dragged kicking and screaming into the role of an immoral agent instead of volunteering for it, costing Waller more time, resources, and lives. So she's willing to count all those things as acceptable losses in order to teach Ollie to torture someone, instead of simply employing the numerous agents she must have who were willing to torture someone in the first place and thereby giving her guaranteed results, because [????] Boogaleeboo posted:Not the parts he works in, and not the way he looks now. Oh if he had a shave and a haircut and was expected to blend in in a five star restaurant, sure. Random backroads and the house where his immigrant handlers live? Please. TyrantWD posted:The Slade flashbacks would have seemed equally pointless until the latter half of season 2, had a large part of the audience not known who Slade is in the DC universe.
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Dec 4, 2014 15:28
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At the start of this season, Flashback Ollie is neither unskilled nor untrained though. If someone (like, say, Amanda Waller) managed to catch his exploits on the Island, it would become immediately obvious that this kid has a metric fuckton of potential. It's not like she picked up Ollie right after he buried his dad.
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Dec 4, 2014 16:19
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BrianWilly posted:This isn't, like, him sneaking in and out of alleyways in the dark and then moving on to another mission or something; Ollie's been running around in the same city in broad daylight for two months now. A city with a population of seven million, whose white demographic is less than one percent. He couldn't possibly be more conspicuous! And the longer he does this, the greater the risk that someone will realize he's alive, which (supposedly?) is something Waller wants to avoid, which still begs the question of why she is going to such lengths. A question that, again, the show is not providing any sensible answers for. Actually rich white guys running around Hong Kong doing crazy poo poo is probably the most realistic thing about the show. As long as he doesn't kill someone in broad daylight or make the papers, which is something that Argus will prevent, nobody's going to give a poo poo about another expat running through the markets. Waller's willing to invest so much in Ollie because she sees that there's a cold blooded killer in him who's willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Skills can be taught and experience gained but that kind of sociopathic tendency isn't something that can be trained. Ollie is definitely being used as a precursor to the Suicide Squad and I think we'll eventually see a scene where Waller stops blackmailing people like Ollie or his handler to do her dirty work and straight out just implant bombs into their heads to gain compliance.
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Dec 4, 2014 16:36
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Kegslayer posted:Waller's willing to invest so much in Ollie because she sees that there's a cold blooded killer in him who's willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Skills can be taught and experience gained but that kind of sociopathic tendency isn't something that can be trained.
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Dec 4, 2014 16:48
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hcreight posted:Considering Wells figured it out in a few hours without having been there... Wells may have cheated.
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Dec 4, 2014 17:00
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BrianWilly posted:Again, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the Suicide Squad, who are natural born killers and predisposed towards becoming secret hitmen Do you even remember who is on that team? A mercenary, a thug, a political bomber, loving Harley Quinn, a crazy traitor ex ASIS agent, man I'm trying to think of other people they teased....it is generally not the most stable group. Deadshot is probably the most dependable, because he just does not give a gently caress. Pay him, he's cool. You are too focused on the "kill well" part of their characters, which...who gives a poo poo? Most of the things they kill well are totally innocent people because it makes their dick hard. That isn't by nature a super grounding in team building and dying for your country. The challenge isn't finding people that are well trained. It's finding people that are well trained, totally deniable, and outside the normal wheelhouse of government agents and getting them to play ball. Considering the scale of things Ollie has taken down by the time she's met him [Including one of her operations], he fits a lot of the bill. He came a long way on the island. And he's a bit unstable, which makes keeping him focused and directed a little bit of a challenge. quote:Because Ollie already failed! His failure at torture cost the lives of innocents. Yeah, but they weren't American so who cares? Long term verses short term planning. If he fails in Hong Kong early it doesn't matter, you can snag someone else to replace him. If he doesn't, you've developed an asset. There's no downside for her. quote:And he's going to continue to fail, and fail spectacularly, since he's being dragged kicking and screaming into the role of an immoral agent instead of volunteering for it, costing Waller more time, resources, and lives. One, we know he doesn't. He's quoting her in the future and basing a lot of what he did on her mindset. We know he learns the lesson. And two....what money, what resources, what lives? She doesn't pay him, she doesn't even really give him any gear, and the people dying aren't American [Read: Not her loving concern. And even if they were she tried to shoot down a passenger plane to kill a single person]. quote:So she's willing to count all those things as acceptable losses in order to teach Ollie to torture someone, instead of simply employing the numerous agents she must have who were willing to torture someone in the first place and thereby giving her guaranteed results, because [????] To see if she could. You don't like that answer, but it's how she works. She sees promise in him, it costs her nothing she cares about, she'll give it a try. Amanda Waller is not a particularly nice person. quote:And they'll remain really stupid unless-slash-until the show gives us any information that makes them less stupid. Nah, they are fine, you are just too hung up on minutia. e: Seriously you are operating under the guiding principle that Amanda Waller cares about innocent life when it gets in the way of her trying something potentially useful down the road. That is never, ever going to be true. Mulva fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 17:08
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imperialparadox posted:I was amazed by this, he was pretty badass and would he have killed Ollie without the Flash intervention? Gladiator Prison Break... It's happening, book it.
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Dec 4, 2014 17:27
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Boogaleeboo posted:Seriously you are operating under the guiding principle that Amanda Waller cares about innocent life when it gets in the way of her trying something potentially useful down the road. That is never, ever going to be true. Will Waller's gambit work? Well this is fiction, and the writers will write what they want, so they'll probably write the story so that her gambit works for some reason. That does not mean that the reason will be a good one, that they will write (or have written) the story in any way that makes sense. You cannot possibly suggest that the writers of Arrow are totally above writing stupid storylines that don't make sense. Don't tell me you all actually like the flashbacks this season?
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Dec 4, 2014 17:35
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BrianWilly posted:I'm operating under the principle that Amanda Waller is smart and pragmatic enough to make smart, pragmatic decisions that will actually get her the results she wants instead of making stupid senseless decisions that have a low-to-nil probability of success and high risk of backfire for literal shits and giggles. As the situation stands, Waller's recruitment of Oliver is a total high-risk low-reward clusterfuck and the more that they want us to take it seriously, the more frustrating it becomes. She's training up a dead man with serious potential and who she effectively has under her complete control. I'd say that training Ollie is low risk, high reward. quote:Will Waller's gambit work? Well this is fiction, and the writers will write what they want, so they'll probably write the story so that her gambit works for some reason. That does not mean that the reason will be a good one, that they will write (or have written) the story in any way that makes sense. You cannot possibly suggest that the writers of Arrow are totally above writing stupid storylines that don't make sense. The reasons seem pretty readily apparent to me! E: Even without going into her long-term plans for Ollie (which we actually don't know), her decision to force him to work for her makes sense from my perspective. quote:Don't tell me you all actually like the flashbacks this season? Personally, yes. It's definitely weaker than the previous seasons' flashbacks, but it's basically fine. King of Solomon fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 17:43
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VagueRant posted:Godawful special effects or lack thereof. The little smoke pellet/exploding boomerang that caused a tiny bit of steam that wouldn't even hide him turning away, never mind escaping... It was a flashbang, not a smoke bomb. Bad Moon posted:Wait if Lyla "sanitized" the Suicide Squad does that mean Bronze Tiger and Deadshot and them all are dead? Different squad. Presumably they recruited Deadshot, Tiger and the others because they had to sanitize them. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 17:59
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BrianWilly posted:Don't tell me you all actually like the flashbacks this season? The only reason I cared last night was that they were taking time away from The Flash being in Starling City. Otherwise, yeah, I've been fine with them thus far.
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Dec 4, 2014 18:00
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It seems like everyone has forgotten about what kind of person Waller is. The bulk of the season one flashbacks was Oliver, under the guidance of Yao Fei and later Slade, taking out one of Waller's operations led by Fyers. Waller has been monitoring the island for a long time, and seeing what Oliver did as an amateur, it's a good bet that he could be weaponized and turned into the greatest super agent she has ever come across. Considering that Waller also has the Suicide Squad, she clearly knows that she has an eye for those with a talent for violence. This is a woman who was prepared to shoot down a Chinese passenger plane to kill one person. Letting a few more non-Americans die while she develops her super weapon is an easily acceptable cost of business for her. Stopping the bombing, killing that guy in the market - accomplishing any of that is just a bonus on the path to forging her very own super agent.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:23
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Waller probably also knows about his Bratva connection. She may be using this time in Hong Kong to get him trained up enough to infiltrate the Russians.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:30
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That episode was amazing.  I said this in the Flash thread too, but I'd love more crossover episodes. Not so much that they outstay their welcome, but once a season or so would be great.Felicity was awesome this episode. Just chucks a grenade at Captain Boomerang and scares him off. Also when Kaitlin asks what the Salmon Ladder is the reply was something like "a thing that distracts me from working", that made me laugh. Also the bomb going off before Ollie can even properly think about torturing. Geez Waller, give him a bit more notice next time.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:33
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LongDarkNight posted:Waller probably also knows about his Bratva connection. She may be using this time in Hong Kong to get him trained up enough to infiltrate the Russians. The Bratva connection that he hasn't made yet outside of a conversation between two people in a submarine?
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Dec 4, 2014 19:36
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TyrantWD posted:It seems like everyone has forgotten about what kind of person Waller is. The bulk of the season one flashbacks was Oliver, under the guidance of Yao Fei and later Slade, taking out one of Waller's operations led by Fyers. Waller has been monitoring the island for a long time, and seeing what Oliver did as an amateur, it's a good bet that he could be weaponized and turned into the greatest super agent she has ever come across. Considering that Waller also has the Suicide Squad, she clearly knows that she has an eye for those with a talent for violence.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:41
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McDragon posted:
I was trying to figure that out, was there a time skip in that bit? There must have been a couple hours where he just tried talking to him, as I doubt even a skilled torturer could have gotten anything in just a few minutes.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:43
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Some Numbers posted:The Bratva connection that he hasn't made yet outside of a conversation between two people in a submarine? I'm guessing all of this Hong Kong stuff with Amanda and Oliver ends with infiltrating Bratva as the ultimate goal. Oliver is not just going to join the Russian mob because he was bored. It seems like something that will be forced on him, most likely by Waller.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:46
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