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spacetoaster posted:Are they shooting/choking to death unarmed black men?
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Dec 5, 2014 06:33
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Dead Reckoning posted:
Oh yeah. You could have just said: "The BATFE." And I would have called it quits.
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Dec 5, 2014 06:55
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30.5 Days posted:I'm honestly curious whether the prosecutor went in ready to bomb the Garner GJ or whether he figured the officer was hosed regardless, played it straight, but there were just some people on the GJ who will always support the officer no matter what. Maybe they didn't play the video for the GJ? I read the case had taken 9ish weeks and called something like 30-40 witnesses and experts to testify. Sounds like he bombed it.
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Dec 5, 2014 07:13
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Samurai Sanders posted:I guess what I'm asking is, is it possible to train people not to panic when dealing with scary black people WITHOUT training them on how to kill better? Yeah that's why I mentioned the cultural competency part.
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Dec 5, 2014 07:18
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Dead Reckoning posted:Wait, I thought we were disappointed that the Cleveland PD wasn't giving minors the benefit of the doubt with lethal weapons. A child can kill somebody with a gun. There's a difference between that and "is definitely going to if you don't shoot them first".
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Dec 5, 2014 07:29
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Ditocoaf posted:A child can kill somebody with a gun. There's a difference between that and "is definitely going to if you don't shoot them first". Here's a bit of good news for you A 20 year veteran cop in California, talked down a suicidal college student. So not all cops are triggy happy idiots. The bad news is that as soon as he left the room to get the kid some water, his backup Tasered the kid twice. The worst news, now his superiors are trying to fire him for refusing to Taser a suicidal kid he had already talked down, and had already been repeatedly Tasered by his backup as soon as he left the room.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:09
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Samurai Sanders posted:What is police training even about, anyway? What is more important for them to spend time on than how to not kill people? California's model is generally considered the standard for police training in the U.S. If you're curious you can see exactly what's covered in the classroom portions here. For each of those "learning domains" you get a workbook, that's basically on par with a car's owner manual in terms of writing level. An instructor, generally a cop but sometimes not, will lecture on the various key points in the learning domains. At least in my academy class, many instructors would literally stomp their foot or tap the board when they're saying something that will be on the multiple choice test for that learning domain. You can compare that 660 or so hours in California to a police academy in Louisiana, which is about 360. So it varies pretty widely from state to state. To be clear, my academy was six months, so I'm assuming things are added to that minimum presented at my link. But it was a long time ago so I don't remember details well enough to account for the difference. You can shift things around to add time to spend on more important things, or perhaps their training should be longer. There is a Word document here that shows the amount of time allocated to each topic: https://www.post.ca.gov/Data/Sites/1/post_docs/training/trainingspecs/RBC_MINIMUM_HOURLY_REQUIREMENTS.doc So 72 hours on shooting and such. Sixteen hours on cultural diversity / discrimination. Which I think addresses your question, in that killing people gets more time than not killing people.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:10
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thrakkorzog posted:Here's a bit of good news for you A 20 year veteran cop in California, talked down a suicidal college student. So not all cops are triggy happy idiots. Apparently the student stood up, and got yelled at, then was shot with tasers, then shocked via drive stuns (direct contact with the taser). Bit of a heavy handed approach to ensuring safety. It was the Mariana police that complained about the campus officer, as well, claiming he "failed to act" and that he "froze" during the moment of tension when presumably he came back into the room to see the other officers repeatedly electrocuting the student, rather than joining in. I don't really know what to make of that. And of course the campus gave some petty statement about how they're just utterly powerless in trying not to sweep the whole matter under the rug, but rest assured, its really complex, and the campus police union is wrong for reasons we cannot say, because the investigation which we totally are having is still ongoing. We may have tried to fire him already, but the investigation never stops. “This issue involves a personnel investigation and we are unable to provide specific comments regarding an ongoing personnel matter. This case is much more complex than was conveyed in the press release. However, we are not at liberty to comment further as the personnel process moves forward.” and finally something which has nothing to do with anything: "Mastagni-Storm also disclosed the CSUMB officer is Asian, and the student in the incident is black."
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Dec 5, 2014 08:36
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Spoke Lee posted:I read the case had taken 9ish weeks and called something like 30-40 witnesses and experts to testify. Sounds like he bombed it. His other option would have been to let the officer testify without any witnesses to contradict him, since the officer has to be allowed to testify if he wants. I would be fired for malpractice if I let a witness testify without having a witness of my own to contradict him, as unrebutted testimony is pretty much a "I give up, you win." The length/number of witnesses (20-odd of whom were random people who saw it) isn't really indicative of bombing it (or not bombing it) because it's consistent with either theory. It does signify that if it was him dumping the case intentionally, it wasn't blatant, since if he wanted to do it blatantly he could have just not called witnesses and cried about NY law requiring him to allow the defendant to testify.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:51
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Kalman posted:His other option would have been to let the officer testify without any witnesses to contradict him, since the officer has to be allowed to testify if he wants. I would be fired for malpractice if I let a witness testify without having a witness of my own to contradict him, as unrebutted testimony is pretty much a "I give up, you win." The length/number of witnesses (20-odd of whom were random people who saw it) isn't really indicative of bombing it (or not bombing it) because it's consistent with either theory. It does signify that if it was him dumping the case intentionally, it wasn't blatant, since if he wanted to do it blatantly he could have just not called witnesses and cried about NY law requiring him to allow the defendant to testify. How long is a GJ usually?
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Dec 5, 2014 08:55
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Spoke Lee posted:How long is a GJ usually? Most are short in NY, but most are simple drug charges where it's basically "yes, I bought drugs from this guy" "ok next." Trying to draw a comparison from that to a case where a defendant takes the stand and is generally a sympathetic defendant (cops are sympathetic defendants, particularly to a Staten Island jury which skews whiter, more conservative, and has higher police/fire/EMS representation than NYC as a whole) is misguided. They're not the same thing, whether or not the prosecutor is trying to throw it. Once the defendant testifies to the grand jury it's very different - it tends to help them (partially through self-selection, in that only defendants who have a decent shot at swaying a jury appear) which means that a prosecutor who wants an indictment is going to have to put on more evidence in order to rebut the defendants testimony. In Ferguson you could draw a conclusion about the prosecutors from the length and witness list; not so much for Garner. The prosecutor could have been trying to tank it, or he could have been trying for a conviction, but the gross numbers don't tell us much one way or another.
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Dec 5, 2014 09:39
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ascii genitals posted:http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/01/are-college-educated-police-safer.html Not that I disagree that educated cops are better but those numbers are useless if you don't include the percentage of cops who have four-year degrees. For all we know going from those numbers alone maybe only 2% of cops have four-year degrees but they account for 11% of disciplinary actions.
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Dec 5, 2014 09:40
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spacetoaster posted:Wow, 70 pages. Has anyone discussed some level of federalization of local law enforcement? That brings me to what I think could help: abolishing police unions, which would probably have to be done on the local and state level. This is a crosspost from the NYC LAN thread, where you might have some story or another about a cop officially getting off for killing a black guy selling single cigarettes. Note: "Lynch" refers to Patrick Lynch, the mafia don of New York City's organized crime front for cops... sorry, I mean the head New York City Patrolmen's Benevolent Association. He was on TV saying that Eric Garner was resisting arrest and could have prevented his own death. Yeah, this post is gonna have a lot of exaggeration, but I'm lazy and don't want to post this exact same argument worded differently. Me, in another thread posted:Kinda appropriate that his last name is "Lynch," no? His victim blaming is indistinguishable from the behavior of a mafioso that killed someone who betrayed him. Even my friend who is as pro-labor as they come think that he's a piece of poo poo. get that OUT of my face fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 09:45
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MeLKoR posted:Not that I disagree that educated cops are better but those numbers are useless if you don't include the percentage of cops who have four-year degrees. For all we know going from those numbers alone maybe only 2% of cops have four-year degrees but they account for 11% of disciplinary actions. From the original study: Officers who had only high school diplomas-58 percent of officers-were the subject of 75 percent of all disciplinary actions. Officers who had only associate's degrees-16 percent of officers-were the subject of 12 percent of all disciplinary actions. Officers with bachelor's degrees-24 percent of officers-were the subject of 11 percent of all disciplinary actions. So yeah, education seems to have a strong correlation to reduced likelihood of disciplinary action.
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Dec 5, 2014 09:53
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Kalman posted:From the original study: Thanks, that's about what I would expect but I missed the numbers in the article.
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Dec 5, 2014 09:55
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E: holy poo poo i was like 2 pages behind
FourLeaf fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 10:38
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Y-Hat posted:Note: "Lynch" refers to Patrick Lynch, the mafia don of New York City's organized crime front for cops... sorry, I mean the head New York City Patrolmen's Benevolent Association. He was on TV saying that Eric Garner was resisting arrest and could have prevented his own death. Yeah, this post is gonna have a lot of exaggeration, but I'm lazy and don't want to post this exact same argument worded differently. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/eric-garner-chokehold-death-ny-police-union-chief-praises-grand-n261586 quote:He suggested that the mayor was teaching children to fear police officers, and he said the lesson instead should be to comply with police officers, even if they feel an arrest is unjust.  Holy poo poo, you weren't kidding or exaggerating at all. The guy is a literal police-state fascist that is threatening the public with death if they do anything a cop considers close to "resisting arrest".
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Dec 5, 2014 11:08
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Ripoff posted:http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/eric-garner-chokehold-death-ny-police-union-chief-praises-grand-n261586 By the way, he was also the only city official who opposed condemning another cop who shot an unarmed man in an East New York housing project. Hell, he went even further by saying that the victim was probably a criminal. Yes, the man killed was black, but the cop was Asian- not like your ethnicity matters when you're dressed in blue and have a gun given to you as part of the tools of your trade. I legitimately do not consider police unions to be true labor unions. Just because they engage in collective bargaining doesn't mean that they're for the cause of labor. They never support strikes and labor demonstrations, and too often they oppose them by arresting and attacking the people involved. If all police unions dissolved overnight, state and local governments would still give them all the trappings that come with being a public employee. The only difference is that they'll get fired when they gently caress up, which is what they deserve in such a situation.
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Dec 5, 2014 11:21
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Here's Lynch's whole statement. http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/12/04/new-york-city-patrolmens-benevolent-association-editorials-debates/19922445/ trigger warning:  literally
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Dec 5, 2014 11:37
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I've only been popo for about 4 years but I spend most of my time answering 911 calls and working wrecks. I don't know what kind of police have time to go around violating people's rights, but apparently they are bored and work in a slow part of town. The call load is so bad that I rarely get a meal break while on duty. I wonder if the majority of complaints about police target the average beat officer or special units? On my department there is a fairly large divide. There is patrol, investigative units, and then the special units. Patrol generate the reports that detectives follow up on. Then there are the special units that focus on serving warrants and targeting crime proactively. A lot of the more, let's say, 'energetic' officers go to the special units. The officers that stay in patrol for their careers tend to be the "8 hours and done" crew that have a life beyond being police. They answer calls, deal with the problem folks on their beat, and go home at the end of shift. The 'energetic' ones chase people for the tiniest crack rock because its an easy felony arrest. The energetic ones think the career patrol officers are lazy, and the career patrol officers think the energetic ones are asking to get hurt and are going too far and expending too much effort to make essentially meaningless arrests.
kordavox fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 12:02
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Samurai Sanders posted:I guess what I'm asking is, is it possible to train people not to panic when dealing with scary black people WITHOUT training them on how to kill better? But those are sort of separate questions: yes, you want cops good at mamaging and deescalating situations so they are not shooting when it can be avoided, but if they do shoot you want them to actually hit whoever they were aiming for and not someone completely unrelated in the home in the background. Also you want them to not shoot accidentally, too, which has happened in real life, IIRC.
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Dec 5, 2014 13:24
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Saw someone linking this article from 1985, thought I'd share. http://www.nytimes.com/1985/05/05/us/blacks-protest-choke-hold-death-in-oregon.html quote:PORTLAND, Ore., May 4— Many blacks in this city have expressed outrage since a 31-year-old black man died after the police subdued him in a struggle in a convenience store's parking lot.
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Dec 5, 2014 13:26
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Remember that police officer who shot a black guy at a gas station reaching for his driver's license? Where they guy said "Why did you shoot me?" and it was caught on video. The officer was fired and charged with assault. I'm now pretty convinced if he had shot him multiple times and killed him and the guy had no chance to speak, despite this being on video he would still have his job and would not have been charged with a crime. Perverse incentive.
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Dec 5, 2014 13:54
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/phoenix-police-unarmed-man-killed-by-officer/19878931/ OK, as an outside observer this is getting bizarre 
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Dec 5, 2014 14:52
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DarkCrawler posted:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/phoenix-police-unarmed-man-killed-by-officer/19878931/ Essentially, this poo poo has been going on for literal centuries. However now people seem to care about it, so it makes the news. There is no "spree" of cops killing people, but now America is paying attention for however long it chooses to do so before declaring the problem 'fixed.'
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Dec 5, 2014 15:28
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The problem will be fixed when the media determines it's not worth covering anymore and the reports are subjugated back to Internet blogs and such while white America continues to think we a a post racial society. I've given up hope that there will be any fix to any of this, especially after the police commissioner decided to lay down a sick burn on the dead guy that a cop choked to death.
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Dec 5, 2014 15:30
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More riots may help.
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Dec 5, 2014 15:36
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I've been noticing Patrick Lynch pop up in a lot of stories about misconduct lately, and his incredible victim blaming abilities would be impressive if they weren't so repugnant.
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Dec 5, 2014 15:44
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laxbro posted:I think requiring a four year degree for officers is an easy way to cut out the majority of the knuckleheads. I doubt you would have to increase pay by that much. Teachers need to have a bachelors to get hired and usually need a Masters degree within X amount of years and they usually have mediocre salaries. Police should need a associates to get hired and a bachelors within X years or else have considerable military experience. Improve the overall quality of the officers and you'll have a lot less of this kind of bullshit happening. In this economy...most actually do have associates degrees. many have bachelors. some even have masters. But I agree with your point that an educated police force is not a bad thing.
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Dec 5, 2014 16:28
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wait...people actually want to see a federalized police force as a way to create greater accountability? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. no...wait... BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Dec 5, 2014 16:40
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ActusRhesus posted:wait...people actually want to see a federalized police force as a way to create greater accountability? I imagine you laughing like this as you break up families
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Dec 5, 2014 17:00
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SedanChair posted:I imagine you laughing like this as you break up families there's more cape twirling and finger tenting involved.
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Dec 5, 2014 17:05
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There's a guy in my neighborhood, who is black judging from his dialect, who gets angry and shouty in the middle of the night sometimes, necessitating the police to come by. It happened again last night. I guess I should be happy every time they part company with him still alive...
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Dec 5, 2014 17:45
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http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/exclusive-texted-union-rep-akai-gurley-lay-dying-article-1.2034219?cid=bitlyquote:Right after rookie cop Peter Liang discharged a single bullet that struck Gurley, 28, he and his partner Shaun Landau were incommunicado for more than six and a half minutes, sources said Thursday. just shot dud wut shd i do that's the really creepy thread through all of these shootings, after the shot these cops literally just stand around waiting for legal advice or some other poo poo, not even trying to administer first aid. Tamir Rice, Mike Brown, Akai Gurley, all just bleed to death while these cops twiddle their thumbs. How loving awful is our police training, or worse, our society that this is how these humans react? edit: 
pathetic little tramp fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 18:54
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pathetic little tramp posted:http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/exclusive-texted-union-rep-akai-gurley-lay-dying-article-1.2034219?cid=bitly ugh, even if it's 5 bucks, couldn't that asshat just give $5 USD without making someone jump through a bunch of lovely hoops to get > $5 bucks in bitcoins.
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Dec 5, 2014 20:04
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DarkCrawler posted:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/phoenix-police-unarmed-man-killed-by-officer/19878931/ This actually happens all the loving time. For whatever reason, the Michael Brown case drew attention to it.
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Dec 5, 2014 21:12
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Direct link: http://www.youcaring.com/memorial-fundraiser/help-the-family-of-tamir-rice/273407 I know I talked a lot of hypotheticals about Rice's shooting, but the video showed there was no sane decision to use lethal force. Even if he had been at fault, his family should have some funds to help them with whatever they need during this time.
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Dec 5, 2014 21:55
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I've seen reports that link is actually a scam? It's got no info on who's running it or anything, but reports its being run by Shaun King and he's got a history of fraud and the family has been trying to take it down? I don't really know, but it doesn't seem particularly legit?
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Dec 5, 2014 22:25
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quote:Right after rookie cop Peter Liang Why do they always need a dozen words to say shot?
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Dec 5, 2014 22:33
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LorneReams posted:Why do they always need a dozen words to say shot? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc
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Dec 5, 2014 23:03
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