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Political correctness gone mad. edit: Anyone who spends all their time on the internet needs a reality check, but I'm not seeing the cause and effect of internet SJWs run amok ruining the good name of the progressive movement. Is there really a large contingent of real-life people that this has spilled over to, affecting their view of young people and the left? Or is that just more of the same fatigue that has existed since young people took to counterculture movements? I would like to hear more about that, instead of braindead strawmen thought experiments. Those can remain on 4chan and reddit. UP AND ADAM fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Dec 5, 2014 |
# ? Dec 5, 2014 13:26 |
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# ? May 26, 2024 00:50 |
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iFederico posted:Most rhetoric around 'checking your privilege' or self flagellation about being white are more of a signaling mechanism that you are a better human being than an actual attempt at doing anything meaningful to improve the lives of oppressed people.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 13:33 |
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Fargo Fukes posted:The last few pages of this thread have been a marvellous example of how much good identity politics and privilege theory have done for the right. I mean, they've just been a gift from God for the powers-that-be. Informed by what we've read here, lets run a thought experiment: that's a really weirdly formatted longass hipptheticle sanrio
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 13:43 |
Awareness is important, but mostly for the oppressed group. Consciousness-raising sessions were aimed at women, and increasing gay visibility at liberating closeted people outside of areas with strong gay communities. Awareness of yourself as part of a larger group and of that group as powerful is something that can be very meaningful. So why creating a sense among whites that they are powerful oppressors is supposed to fix problems I don't know. From what I see, all it does is promulgate self-loathing.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 13:44 |
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Effectronica posted:Awareness is important, but mostly for the oppressed group. Consciousness-raising sessions were aimed at women, and increasing gay visibility at liberating closeted people outside of areas with strong gay communities. Awareness of yourself as part of a larger group and of that group as powerful is something that can be very meaningful. So why creating a sense among whites that they are powerful oppressors is supposed to fix problems I don't know. From what I see, all it does is promulgate self-loathing. well that sounds like a pretty good goal in and of itself to me
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 13:46 |
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UP AND ADAM posted:Political correctness gone mad. So your argument isn't that identity and privilege politics is worthwhile, your argument is that it doesn't affect the real world and is therefore irrelevant? Seems to be moving the goalposts. I'm sorry if my braindead strawman thought experiment from 4chan distracted from the very valuable discussion we were having about whether it was possible for white people to take part in politics without causing oppression. Surely we were about to crack that one. Ernie Muppari posted:that's a really weirdly formatted longass hipptheticle sanrio ty
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 14:16 |
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It is not even a theory, it is basically just feminist/class/race analysis for dummies and after that no value. Seriously no one should be comfortable telling another adult to check their existence for the advantages they might have unless you are in a first year gender studies tutorial. The only outcome is to piss someone off who might be sympathetic to you. The creepy purging wrong opinions thing is real and needs to stop as well as a bunch of other group psychology stuff that most people on the left should be familiar with and sadly are not....whole thing is sad and kind of funny.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 14:20 |
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UP AND ADAM posted:Political correctness gone mad. There was a big mess last month over the Rosetta comet landing, which was covered pretty heavily. Here's one. quote:The mildest sexual innuendo and humor, even if it does not refer to women in any way, can be seen as demeaning. Last year the Internet was in an uproar after a female computer specialist tweeted a photo of two men at a tech conference to chastise them for exchanging jokes about suggestive-sounding technical terms such as forking and dongle. A leading feminist blog, Jezebel, quickly branded the jokesters—one of whom lost his job for this offense—“sexist dudes.” The Jezebel author, Lindy West, actually admitted that she had repeatedly made similar jokes herself—but insisted that in the context of a male-dominated industry, such humor excludes women. While the overall view from the majority of the articles was 50/50 (half condemning the reaction and half condemning the man) I can certainly see that changing a few neutral opinions of the internet left.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 14:28 |
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Fargo Fukes posted:So your argument isn't that identity and privilege politics is worthwhile, your argument is that it doesn't affect the real world and is therefore irrelevant? Seems to be moving the goalposts. I don't go on tumblr, but I always thought that privilege theory was just an adequate framework for understanding how some dynamics of our world work. The arguments against that kind of discussion have always seemed like bad-faith testimonies or anecdotes amplified beyond their significance, by people interested in dismissing progressivism or trolling. If there are situations like the post below describes, how are they different than activists from the days of old conforming to the slogans and behaviors of their contemporary activist groups, turning off mainstream thinkers with their own unpalatable methods and extremism? The internet offers new and exciting ways for ostracized people to gather and put on airs of superiority, but as far as the actual general population of potential leftist activists in academic circles, it seems to me to be filled with the same combo of laziness/ignorance/insulation that has typically made them the wide-eyed child branch of the movement. Rodatose posted:You call those in question "stuck at relative uselessness," but I consider those who are so far removed from experience that they can only give unworkable polemics to be an active detriment to a movement. Whenever someone who actually goes out and talks to people tries to talk an undecided or opposing person, they not only have to address the substantial points of their movement, but they have to address a bunch of planted misconceptions, too. They go at it going uphill, against someone whose thoughts have already been skewed by people who have gotten to them first and associated your Good Things with a whole bunch of divisive unpleasantness. InsanityIsCrazy posted:There was a big mess last month over the Rosetta comet landing, which was covered pretty heavily. Here's one. I suppose this is the kind of thing that I don't see as having a huge significance after it falls out of the news, as much as Reason Magazine contributor Cathy Young does. Aren't there many other issues an infant leftist can bear witness to and cause him to investigate further? Don't they overshadow stuff like this? UP AND ADAM fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Dec 5, 2014 |
# ? Dec 5, 2014 14:41 |
UP AND ADAM posted:I don't go on tumblr, but I always thought that privilege theory was just an adequate framework for understanding how some dynamics of our world work. The arguments against that kind of discussion have always seemed like bad-faith testimonies or anecdotes amplified beyond their significance, by people interested in dismissing progressivism or trolling. If there are situations like the post below describes, how are they different than activists from the days of old conforming to the slogans and behaviors of their contemporary activist groups, turning off mainstream thinkers with their own unpalatable methods and extremism? The internet offers new and exciting ways for ostracized people to gather and put on airs of superiority, but as far as the actual general population of potential leftist activists in academic circles, it seems to me to be filled with the same combo of laziness/ignorance/insulation that has typically made them the wide-eyed child branch of the movement. The problem, as I see it, is that these generally involve distortions of leftist thought and there's nothing that's being done to counteract them. This can (and arguably is) leading to people developing unjust theories via these distortions. I don't see the grand public menace people are claiming exists, but I do see an internal problem for leftists.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 14:50 |
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UP AND ADAM posted:I suppose this is the kind of thing that I don't see as having a huge significance after it falls out of the news, as much as Reason Magazine contributor Cathy Young does. Aren't there many other issues an infant leftist can bear witness to and cause him to investigate further? Don't they overshadow stuff like this?
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 14:54 |
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GlyphGryph posted:Can you point to victories that it has achieved, and meaningful social change? Has identifying privilege helped? If it's not a useful strategy, we should stop doing it. If it's only a useful strategy in a subset of situations, we should try our best to resort to it only in those situations. SedanChair posted:Just off the top of my head, abolitionism, ending Jim Crow, women's suffrage, the Chicano movement and LGBT rights. Are you just... trolling? You can't be serious. Abolition was a victory achieved by recognizing privilege? Really? Can you explain this? Defend it? What was the mechanism? Because this claim seems literally insane on the face of it, and I haven't gotten past the first item in the list.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 14:58 |
GlyphGryph posted:Are you just... trolling? You can't be serious. His mechanism is that when people recognize that they have institutional advantages over other groups of people, they instinctively act to redress these injustices. This of course falls apart at the second item even if we adopt a naive interpretation of the Civil War for the first.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:00 |
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The bad faith needling from people who definitely are MRAs or whatever abhorrent thing is what rankles me. The lack of background depth and rigorous study and low aspirations of my peer group on the left is ultimately more depressing, but I have become accustomed to that ever since facebook started. It's fine to advocate for honest self-reflection and shaming self-aggrandizement, if that's what OP's piece is doing.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:05 |
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GlyphGryph posted:Are you just... trolling? You can't be serious.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:16 |
Do you really think that southern whites weren't aware that they were superior to blacks under Jim Crow?
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:17 |
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You realize this is an argument not to identifiying privilege, which is assumes to be something the viewer is already aware of, but of building associations. Much like the lgbt movement didn't make it's progress by arguing "You should do something because you've got it better than me in some way" but by arguing "you and I are actually much alike". Building empathy by in-grouping has jack loving all to do with "identifying privilege" as far as I can see, so why don't you try again and use a real argument this time? What does this have to do with privilege, come on, give it a try, use words this time.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:23 |
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Effectronica posted:Do you really think that southern whites weren't aware that they were superior to blacks under Jim Crow? The issue had to be concentrated and put in really stark terms. Allies were created, mostly northern.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:28 |
SedanChair posted:The issue had to be concentrated and put in really stark terms. Allies were created, mostly northern. OK. Northerners were not involved in Jim Crow. They used a separate system of segregation, one which is still largely with us. Jim Crow was a deliberate system that involved a constant reinforcement of white superiority and black inferiority. Your depiction of it as something that was solved by white people navel-gazing (not to mention that the mostly Jewish early allies of the civil rights movement were barely white) is insanely dumb. It's possibly even dumber than saying abolition happened because white people realized that slavery meant that black people were being treated as inferior, but probably not.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:32 |
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Effectronica posted:OK. Northerners were not involved in Jim Crow. They used a separate system of segregation, one which is still largely with us. Jim Crow was a deliberate system that involved a constant reinforcement of white superiority and black inferiority. Your depiction of it as something that was solved by white people navel-gazing (not to mention that the mostly Jewish early allies of the civil rights movement were barely white) is insanely dumb. It's possibly even dumber than saying abolition happened because white people realized that slavery meant that black people were being treated as inferior, but probably not. poo poo moron, I guess I got confused by you talking about Jim Crow. I was talking about slavery. But in the case of Jim Crow northern allies helped to end it as well. Freedom Riders?
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:35 |
SedanChair posted:poo poo moron, I guess I got confused by you talking about Jim Crow. I was talking about slavery. But in the case of Jim Crow northern allies helped to end it as well. Freedom Riders? Reread what I said, if you dare.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:38 |
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What evidence do you have that identifying their privilege is what made those northerners allies? Because the slaveowners were definitely aware of their privilege, and they weren't allies.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:38 |
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sausage eyes posted:It is not even a theory, it is basically just feminist/class/race analysis for dummies and after that no value.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:40 |
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GlyphGryph posted:What evidence do you have that identifying their privilege is what made those northerners allies? Again, justice can't happen without awareness. And what do you think privilege is, a magic spell? If people are evil and love to oppress others, awareness isn't going to help. Those people have to be controlled.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:49 |
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I dropped out of the discussion, but I enjoyed reading this a lot. This was the first time D&D has made me laugh since LF. Thanks again, y'all.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 15:57 |
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SedanChair posted:Again, justice can't happen without awareness. First off: Awareness is not the same thing as privilege. If the neighbour was keeping his daughter locked in the basement, I might fail to act against him because of a lack of awareness. But "identifying my privilege" is not the thing that would be happening if someone let me know that was happening. So give me an actual example of "identifying privilege" that actually managed a victory during the abolition movement. Informing people of what slave's lives were actually like is not identifying privilege, since it says nothing about the lives of the privileged at all. Trying to build empathic association by in-grouping, as in the example image you gave, is pretty much the exact opposite of identifying privilege. (The focus is on what they have in common, not what is different0 Or are you going to claim these for "identifying privilege" somehow? If so, defend that claim, because you haven't yet. SedanChair posted:If people are evil and love to oppress others, awareness isn't going to help. Those people have to be controlled.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 16:02 |
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I've always wanted to know. Is D&D a parody debate forum or a legitimate debate forum? If it's the latter then there's a whole bunch of folks here that aren't even close as smart as they think they are. I make bad analogies as a joke and you guys seem to see it as an art form.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 17:14 |
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Funky See Funky Do posted:I've always wanted to know. Is D&D a parody debate forum or a legitimate debate forum? If it's the latter then there's a whole bunch of folks here that aren't even close as smart as they think they are. I make bad analogies as a joke and you guys seem to see it as an art form. The reasons and motives of D&D posters vary wildly, and in fact vary wildly from post to post. Very few posters have as their motive making this a legitimate debate forum (as if thats even possible), and even those who do get that urge, like myself, probably only manage to post in that direction, oh... half the time at most. The only thing people here have in common is that the like to argue, which is why trolls are so successful here - even when the other side recognizes them as a troll, they can still argue with them and get what they want! So I would say it depends on the thread, poster, and post. In the minds of D&D posters it is both and more. vvvv Thug Drink puts it better than me vvvv GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Dec 5, 2014 |
# ? Dec 5, 2014 17:52 |
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Blue Star posted:Just a quick question: Black (or multi-racial if you wanna get specific) and male.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 17:53 |
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Funky See Funky Do posted:I've always wanted to know. Is D&D a parody debate forum or a legitimate debate forum? it is a subforum on somethingawful.com work backwards from there
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 17:56 |
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There's no such thing as a legitimate debate forum.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 18:58 |
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Effectronica posted:Awareness is important, but mostly for the oppressed group. Consciousness-raising sessions were aimed at women, and increasing gay visibility at liberating closeted people outside of areas with strong gay communities. Awareness of yourself as part of a larger group and of that group as powerful is something that can be very meaningful. So why creating a sense among whites that they are powerful oppressors is supposed to fix problems I don't know. From what I see, all it does is promulgate self-loathing. Or, uh, swagger. Arrogance is loving nice, I tell you what. I'm so glad the internet spent years telling me how awesome I was.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 18:59 |
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SedanChair posted:Again, justice can't happen without awareness. And what do you think privilege is, a magic spell? If people are evil and love to oppress others, awareness isn't going to help. Those people have to be controlled. Awareness of the problem or awareness of I should verbally self flagellate when in the company of browns and vag-havers or queers who lean too far left? Inquiring minds must know. I mean what's more important, the secret lurking subconscious racism in my hand like a little demon on my shoulder wringing his hands, or the issue itself, such as black kids get shot a lot?
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 19:00 |
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Its always funny when someone makes a general statement like "white privilige is bad" and then some butthurt nerd takes it personally and is all "well white privilige never did anything for me, blah blah blah" Its like yelling "hey rear end in a top hat" in a crowded room and seeing who turns around being all like who, me?
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 19:05 |
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Its always funny when someone makes a general statement like "white privilige is bad" and then some butthurt nerd takes it personally and is all "well white privilige never did anything for me, blah blah blah" In my case it taught me I should be an rear end in a top hat since it's expected of me and it turned my life around, though. Edit: Since reddit makes everyone have stronger opinions and it links to what I'm trying to reference but can't think of a funnier way to do it: http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrAtRest/comments/2mo9qd/npr_article_surprises_me_in_straight_white_men_a/ Space Whale fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Dec 5, 2014 |
# ? Dec 5, 2014 19:08 |
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"Well, if you all think i'm a racist... i might as well be a racist! You forced me into this, I blame you."
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 19:12 |
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Well no they stated that I am essentially racist, which means it's a complete waste of time to continue to talk to them, not that I should actually start being the jackboots and hugo boss wearing oppressor I am in their fever dreams. I like Brooks Bros more anyway.
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 19:16 |
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"It's a waste of my time to talk to these people" *continues to respond to every post*
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 19:18 |
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Popular Thug Drink posted:"It's a waste of my time to talk to these people" *continues to respond to every post* Yes. Where I mock people sarcastically and talk to people about them. In DnD. Not sure what your point is?
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 19:20 |
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# ? May 26, 2024 00:50 |
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*looks directly into camera, waggles eyebrows*
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# ? Dec 5, 2014 19:21 |