Casimir Radon posted:Simple statements of truth huh? I knew that as soon as "identity politics" was uttered in this thread, that this would all come down to the humble transgender person. Thread's over guys, we've reached the end. Put all the chairs up on the tables. Jack, get the lights. Space Whale posted:If this is a dumb question let me know, but how is a tiny group of people who piss lots of people off, confuse even more, and which does not give a drat about building bridges, going to actually DO anything? Okay, so persuading people means abandoning all your principles and beliefs? Mhm. Maybe that's appealing to the jackoffs who join Model UN, but for someone who believes in racial equality for moral reasons... I know you're going to get mad about this, so let me point out that what Blue Star was saying was that even basic data are challenged, let alone providing any kind of solution. If people don't agree that America has a problem with race (that isn't caused by black people, or at least the wrong kind of black people), then you're never going to convince them of your solution to it without abandoning all of your beliefs and principles in the process.
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Dec 6, 2014 02:52
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Casimir Radon posted:Transexuality has a decent rate of comorbidity with a a variety of mental illnesses. Except that it doesn't.
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Dec 6, 2014 02:54
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Casimir Radon posted:Simple statements of truth huh? Being gay also has a decent rate of comorbidity with mental illnesses...it's almost like living in a culture which demonizes and discriminates you isn't good for your mental health! Space Whale posted:If this is a dumb question let me know, but how is a tiny group of people who piss lots of people off, confuse even more, and which does not give a drat about building bridges, going to actually DO anything? This is a dumb question because you missed Blue Star's entire point, which is that any discussion of, say, violence against women is going to piss people off. There comes a point where you have to realize that you're not going to build bridges to the parade of people shouting "What about the men!?" in any discussion about women and accept that yes, they are just misogynists. edit: Whoops, looks like I was wrong! But my point was that instances of depression or anxiety of LGBT people can be traced to living in a discriminatory culture.
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Dec 6, 2014 02:59
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Sharkie posted:Being gay also has a decent rate of comorbidity with mental illnesses...it's almost like living in a culture which demonizes and discriminates you isn't good for your mental health!
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Dec 6, 2014 03:03
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Effectronica posted:I know you're going to get mad about this, so let me point out that what Blue Star was saying was that even basic data are challenged, let alone providing any kind of solution. If people don't agree that America has a problem with race (that isn't caused by black people, or at least the wrong kind of black people), then you're never going to convince them of your solution to it without abandoning all of your beliefs and principles in the process. Nah, just feel like we're speaking past each other. There are people who know problems exist, and want to be a part of a thing to do something about it. These people stop doing things about it and might stop caring entirely if they're given poo poo from holier than thou lefties and don't fit in with them. That's the thing I'm wondering about. Of course there is a problem.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:05
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Space Whale posted:Nah, just feel like we're speaking past each other. OK, yeah, then people are speaking past one another.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:06
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Casimir Radon posted:Or maybe they just have an extreme case of body dysmorphia among other things? No, you do not know better than trans people and physicians because you're transphobic, hth. Also: This isn't a thread about transgender people so uh go start a thread about it if you're that concerned.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:06
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Sharkie posted:No, you do not know better than trans people and physicians because you're transphobic, hth. Also:
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Dec 6, 2014 03:10
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Effectronica posted:OK, yeah, then people are speaking past one another. To be fair, I transitioned to a gay stardolphin after offsite LFs made me seriously question a lot of things, like the dialectical value of turdukens to the LTV, if trigger warnings can be triggers, and why the gently caress I made my left wing experience basically "engage in ideologically inflexible, literally crazy assholes." Having since gotten over their poo poo, I'm now trying to separate their poo poo from the left's actual poo poo, and it seems that getting along with normal people who don't know all your vocabulary is a problem, is all. It really feels like you're hated and tolerated as far as something is gotten from you, and nobody can wait to throw your rear end away, from a lot of the shittier, more poisonous types. This is also a problem. No, it doesn't compare to the plight of being a dead black kid. No poo poo. Practical concerns of convincing people to do things to make the poo poo you want a reality still matter though, ordinality of badness aside.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:10
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Hahah every single time someone on this site says "stop discussing this we're offtopic" they make sure they get the last word about it in first
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Dec 6, 2014 03:11
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Casimir Radon posted:That's one study, there are others that say otherwise. I wouldn't say thinking that trans people are mentally Ill and need help that doesn't involve permanent genital mutilation makes me transphobic. But hey, this is a thread about rooting out wrongthink! Of course you wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that wanting to perform all the super moves from SSF2 on you makes me homicidal, either. Space Whale posted:To be fair, I transitioned to a gay stardolphin after offsite LFs made me seriously question a lot of things, like the dialectical value of turdukens to the LTV, if trigger warnings can be triggers, and why the gently caress I made my left wing experience basically "engage in ideologically inflexible, literally crazy assholes." That's really why I think that the best people can be doing at the moment is developing ideological lighthouses for people to think about and position themselves with respect to. Can't really do a personal intellectual journey if all the maps read "here be shitlords".
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Dec 6, 2014 03:18
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Effectronica posted:Of course you wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that wanting to perform all the super moves from SSF2 on you makes me homicidal, either. Woo, tolerance, woo! Just keep in mind you can actually be a smart, mindful, thoughtful, caring person and not... cluster to popular ideologies. Sometimes you agree only 99%, not 100%. That 1% seems to be what pisses people off the most, of course.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:23
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GlyphGryph posted:
Ernie Muppari posted:smiley indicating i think this opinion goes too far Do you disagree? There's always going to be holdouts - you can't please everyone, as they say. Should the LGBT movement have waited until everybody got on board before pushing for legal homosexual marriage? Of course not! Saying the second doesn't even prevent you from continuing to say the first, it's just recognizing the other party's not going to listen and you don't really need them to.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:24
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Space Whale posted:Woo, tolerance, woo! Yeah, but you have to know what those ideologies are to diverge from them.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:25
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GlyphGryph posted:
My point is that you need to give people the means to join and be a part of the new society you want to create, even if not everyone takes it. A lot of people have this attitude of "me and my other plucky little radicals (who are all stricken with panic attacks over internet arguments) are somehow gonna just do it all and you're gonna feel so bad when we're in charge and the tables are turned!" and it's frankly hilarious. It's also a shame, since if there was even an iota of a chance of things happening that way, or approaching the possibility of that happening, they'd just disappear. You're just not going to get far trying to play skullduggery and violence against the USA, in other words. Oh, and it's not as moral as telling a society that you're going to fix it and everyone can belong if they actually act moral themselves.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:33
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Space Whale posted:My point is that you need to give people the means to join and be a part of the new society you want to create, even if not everyone takes it. A lot of people have this attitude of "me and my other plucky little radicals (who are all stricken with panic attacks over internet arguments) are somehow gonna just do it all and you're gonna feel so bad when we're in charge and the tables are turned!" and it's frankly hilarious. This is, in its own way, even more patronizing and alienating than the typical tumblr activist.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:35
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Effectronica posted:Yeah, but you have to know what those ideologies are to diverge from them. I need not buy into LTV entirely, or at all, to agree with socialism, or communism, imo.  I think this is a reasonably safe opinion to share, right? Oh dear I hear jackboots 
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Dec 6, 2014 03:36
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Effectronica posted:This is, in its own way, even more patronizing and alienating than the typical tumblr activist. Well, yeah, if I felt like someone was grouping me with people that childish I'd be hurt, too. You don't strike me as one of those types. I don't even think they're that common. They just frame and poison discourse.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:37
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Space Whale posted:I need not buy into LTV entirely, or at all, to agree with socialism, or communism, imo. It's highly illegal. Come with me. Space Whale posted:Well, yeah, if I felt like someone was grouping me with people that childish I'd be hurt, too. No, I mean the "you have to act moral" stuff. Tumblr types are dumb as hell, but they still treat people as basically equals on some level (until they killfile them), whereas this is pure assumption of superiority.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:38
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Casimir Radon posted:That's one study, there are others that say otherwise. I wouldn't say thinking that trans people are mentally Ill and need help that doesn't involve permanent genital mutilation makes me transphobic. But hey, this is a thread about rooting out wrongthink! No study directly connects being LGBT to having a mental illness. Just go ahead and give us your "I'm really a puppetmaster trolling all you sensitive untermenschs  " post, it's the best you can do.Sharkie posted:This isn't a thread about transgender people so uh go start a thread about it if you're that concerned. You think I'm going to just sit by and let someone be wrong on the internet.  Besides, I'm pretty sure there's one already.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:46
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Effectronica posted:No, I mean the "you have to act moral" stuff. Tumblr types are dumb as hell, but they still treat people as basically equals on some level (until they killfile them), whereas this is pure assumption of superiority. I'm thinking we just drove past each other again. I'm pretty sure almost everyone thinks they're doing the morally right thing. I'm asserting that if you're trying to change society, and you're only oriented towards your own interests, or that of a small, exclusive group you belong to, it's not really morally good. Not necessarily bad, but definitely not as good or as moral as an answer for everyone, on principle.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:46
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MizPiz posted:No study directly connects being LGBT to having a mental illness.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:59
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Casimir Radon posted:I'm pretty sure I've seen studies that correlate transgender and mental illness, too lazy to go find them though. Of course without it my "evidence" is about as good as "In my heart I know I'm a pretty lady and not just an internet trainwreck achieving final form". Even if they're crazy as you think they are they're human beings who deserve to be treated decently. 
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Dec 6, 2014 04:13
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Casimir Radon posted:I'm pretty sure I've seen studies that correlate transgender and mental illness, too lazy to go find them though. Of course without it my "evidence" is about as good as "In my heart I know I'm a pretty lady and not just an internet trainwreck achieving final form". I'm pretty sure I've seen peer-reviewed studies about how everyone should beat your rear end. But seriously, does your not wanting to be called transphobic hinge on "I'm not afraid of trannies", because what you're saying is that transgendered people are all insane and their condition doesn't exist, and it's hard to say that saying "nobody really wants to have sex with men" is neutral on homosexuality, so...
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Dec 6, 2014 04:14
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Space Whale posted:Even if they're crazy as you think they are they're human beings who deserve to be treated decently. Casimir, like many of the trans-hatin' crowd on SA, generally argues that they're all insane, but nothing should be done except sneering at them and ostracizing them socially.
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Dec 6, 2014 04:15
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Space Whale posted:Even if they're crazy as you think they are they're human beings who deserve to be treated decently.
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Dec 6, 2014 04:17
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Gender dysphoria is definitionally a mental disorder, though. That's why we treat it - it's just that the most effective treatments are hormone therapies and surgeries and by modifying how we interaction with them. The condition causes them real and serious distress, though, and it isn't, like when homosexuals were classified as ill, merely a byproduct of society persecuting them (although obviously, like with most conditions, society actively supporting them makes it a lot less bad!). This actually reminds me of a thread I wanted to start... Casimir Radon posted:I never said they didn't. Transsexuals don't deserve to be killed, beat up, or lose their jobs just because they're trans. Doesn't mean everyone should buy into their delusions though. The fact that "buying into their delusions" (helpful hint: It's not a delusion disorder) is the most effective cure for the negative symptoms is the reason we should "buy into their delusions".
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Dec 6, 2014 04:19
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Casimir Radon posted:I'm pretty sure I've seen studies that correlate transgender and mental illness, too lazy to go find them though. Of course without it my "evidence" is about as good as "In my heart I know I'm a pretty lady and not just an internet trainwreck achieving final form".  Now you can go brag about how you totally pwned the D&D Hive-Mind with confidence.
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Dec 6, 2014 04:19
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Man, this thread was way better before it was used by right wingers to take pot shots. That's I guess the problem with honest criticism, the platform for reform eventually gets hijacked a way for opponents to unfairly tarnish. Maybe the reflexive defensiveness is a result of this? I don't know, but it's bad either way, I think there are issues that still need to be solved.Blue Star posted:The thing is, in my experience, it doesn't seem to matter how nice and accommodating we are. Even the statement of simple truths is enough to rile people up. Try to talk about the poo poo that women face, or non-white people face, or LGBT people face, and you open yourself to harassment and abuse. It doesn't seem to matter if you qualify your statements with "Now, only a minority of men are like this...", or "Now obviously not all white people do this...", you'll still get a massive response from pissed off dudes and white people going "Well what about MEN being raped by WOMEN, huh? HUH?!", or "What about when BLACK PEOPLE kill WHITE PEOPLE, huh?! HUH?!" It just doesn't seem to matter. The only thing that will NOT piss these people off is if you say "Women harass and rape men just as much as vice-verse; black people are just as racist as white people and black cops murder unarmed white men just as much", despite all evidence to the contrary. Now I agree that it's not about 'being nice'. 'Being nice' doesn't get you allies, but you cannot afford to just randomly insult people and drive them away. You grab allies wherever you can find them. You obviously don't debase yourself to get them, because it's hard to be an ally with someone you don't respect (and most calls by reactionaries for the left to 'be nicer' are usually this: a call to debase, to lose potency). But you can't afford to simply yell at them and hope they'll change, that's wishful thinking. rudatron fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 04:20
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Casimir Radon posted:I never said they didn't. Transsexuals don't deserve to be killed, beat up, or lose their jobs just because they're trans. Doesn't mean everyone should buy into their delusions though. Beating the drum of "they're delusional" doesn't serve any purpose beyond bullying, though. Unless there's something I've missed?
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Dec 6, 2014 04:22
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Incidentally, these reddit warriors against the underdog are responsible for many of the ridiculous tumblr posts about otherkin. Maybe they're the only ones who actually feel like otherkin, and are closeted and acting out.
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Dec 6, 2014 04:25
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Space Whale posted:Beating the drum of "they're delusional" doesn't serve any purpose beyond bullying, though.
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Dec 6, 2014 04:27
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Casimir Radon posted:I'm not saying that anyone other than physicians ought to treat them any differently. Irreversible genital mutilation just doesn't seem like the best way to "help" people. "Informed consent" is what you want to advocate for, I think.
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Dec 6, 2014 04:28
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Casimir Radon posted:I'm not saying that anyone other than physicians ought to treat them any differently. Irreversible genital mutilation just doesn't seem like the best way to "help" people. But there are people who get the irreversible genital mutilation and seem pretty happy with it? What would you argue is the better way to help those people?
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Dec 6, 2014 04:36
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I didn't even mention transgendered people  . Not by themselves, anyway; i mentioned LGBT people as a whole. I have no idea why Casimir Radon even zeroed in on that.Even if he were right about trans folks, that's got absolutely nothing to do with anything else I posted.
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Dec 6, 2014 04:45
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I think it's all your garbage dick avatars giving him his throwaway attitude towards reassignment surgery.
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Dec 6, 2014 04:48
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SedanChair posted:Incidentally, these reddit warriors against the underdog are responsible for many of the ridiculous tumblr posts about otherkin. Maybe they're the only ones who actually feel like otherkin, and are closeted and acting out. I just got YHWH as a headmate and he's kind of mad at you totally appropriating JudeoEgyptian history with your violent revolutionary fantasies you shitlord.
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Dec 6, 2014 04:52
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I saw a few different instances on hip hop boards with angry young black men claiming that they'll be "checking" white boys privilege in a not so subtle statement of racial violence that made me cement my views on this. With current social justice definitions you could call these racially charged beatings by black youths on a white youth as "an oppressed people assaulting a privileged racist". In the current social media atmosphere, my father says something to the tune like "mike brown should have used common sense and not have assaulted the officer" being labelled as a regressive racist and losing his job to a social justice lynch mob. Nobody experiences life as a system, and if as a child I coexperienced that with my family, I would never buy in to your politics. If a person who grew up as a very small white minority in a community in america, as i have, and saw racial violence against me downplayed or even juxtaposed as justified, I would never buy into your politics. If I was growing up today, exposed to the social media undercurrent of leftists activism, I would feel forced into racial tribalism, because everything else would either be bad or hostile to me. If it feels like a racial war by any other name, how could anyone with a sense of self preservation not then "join" their side?
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Dec 6, 2014 07:44
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SedanChair posted:The issue had to be concentrated and put in really stark terms. Allies were created, mostly northern. And as the war ground on, yankee soldiers came to resent blacks. Also refugees and contrabands were persecuted in northern towns increasingly as the war ground on. Mainly because yankees were losing friends and family members to this war for those people they didn't even know. The result was a bunch of segregation through things like sundown towns. The feelings of white superiority were still there, just it was held as more morally superior to the way the rebels were doing things because instead of actively mistreating blacks, they simply alienated them and made it so they would not have to deal with them or ever come into contact with them. You also ignore the economic basis by stating it only had a moral one. Lincoln, going into the war, held the war was a matter of union preservation and said publicly that it would not be constitutional to deprive a person of their 'rightly owned' property. (Later on, the emancipation proclamation only referred to those rebelling states that were no longer covered by the constitution, done as a strategy to try to get rebel states to rejoin the union.) The economic conflict was that of entrenched slaveowner elites of the Democratic party who wanted to keep onto the mode of production that thrived through local monopolies using human beings as fixed capital (something that allowed for 'small businessowners') vs emerging liberal capitalists of the Republican elite, who wanted slave labor to be abolished because it would wipe out a lot of competitors, create a large workforce surplus and allow for better national market dominance. Basically small unregulated businessowners vs consolidated large factory owners. Because the latter won, you saw the rise of huge monopolies over the next half century; and because reconstruction got Redeemered (obviously that white privilege check bounced), the south got Jim Crowe which allowed a preservation of that social dominance of whites over blacks without total economic ownership. e: this is not a defense of slavery. slavery bad. but civil war as a moral white crusade to set free the blacks is a myth Zeitgueist posted:as they come from the oppressor class (just a little joke, no harm meant. I mentioned the idea of there being an "oppression binary" being a framing mistake before) Rodatose fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 07:50
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Rodatose posted:And as the war ground on, yankee soldiers came to resent blacks. Also refugees and contrabands were persecuted in northern towns increasingly as the war ground on. Mainly because yankees were losing friends and family members to this war for those people they didn't even know. The result was a bunch of segregation through things like sundown towns. The feelings of white superiority were still there, just it was held as more morally superior to the way the rebels were doing things because instead of actively mistreating blacks, they simply alienated them and made it so they would not have to deal with them or ever come into contact with them. What on earth? I was talking about abolitionism, there's no need for you to get into the particulars of the Civil War. Jesus, internet.
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Dec 6, 2014 08:39
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