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Tracula posted:From the way everyone was talking I thought the loving game was gonna have a stamina/energy bar like some free MMO's or mobile games where you have to stop playing for several hours, not just basically a regenerating mana pool. Well you see, it already HAD a regenerating "mana" pool for your guns, techs like double jump, and tools like grappling hooks (constant drain). But it was fairly iffy because the Dev blog mindset was "A full energy bar, if you do not miss too much, will kill 2 to 2.5 even tire enemies". With "even tier" being the top possible gear for a given biome. Then they nerfed one handed guns to "Balance out their advantages, such as being able to hold a flashlight in combat". Then norn swung by to say "Oh don't worry, we're going to make it more forgiving and less of a headache with our energy system overhaul". Then today we get the update where instead of making it more forgiving, they add delayed recharge and locked out for a while recharge if you use bottom out your energy (which everything still uses) but it's okay because it will recharge FASTER now... so long as you are not actually trying to do anything with your energy. You know, the opposite of making it more forgiving and less of a headache. EDIT: Then you have the fact their example showcase, the gun able to fire slowly three times safely (four times bottoms out the energy) takes different amounts of energy bar for every shot  Two bars, then three bars, then two and a half bars, then empty. With the side dash tech example taking 2 bars. So the example is able to take three slow shots with a rifle, and one dash (just mobility, no dodge frames or anything) before hold on, stop doing anything or you'll hit the lockout penalty on top of waiting for it to recharge.
Section Z fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 09:42
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Tracula posted:From the way everyone was talking I thought the loving game was gonna have a stamina/energy bar like some free MMO's or mobile games where you have to stop playing for several hours, not just basically a regenerating mana pool. THERE'S STILL TIME
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Dec 6, 2014 09:43
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Tracula posted:From the way everyone was talking I thought the loving game was gonna have a stamina/energy bar like some free MMO's or mobile games where you have to stop playing for several hours, not just basically a regenerating mana pool. But ranged combat needs to be balanced against melee combat, since it already has the impressive benefit of not needing to be near your enemy. It's like how in Terraria, all the guns did a sixth the damage of a sword and you couldn't run or use wings while shooting. Or as above, but with magic. Also in Terraria your mana bar could get bigger and charge faster depending on your equipment so there's that too.
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Dec 6, 2014 09:44
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Agent Kool-Aid posted:lmao i remember when i was wondering why cutting down vines w/ the matter manipulator took like 5 minutes when it seems like the simplest goddamn thing and goons loving crawled out of the woodwork to tell me why it needed to be that way Hahaha, that's the first thing I modified was the manipulator and i've never built a pic or a drill or whatever else. Space game, space rules, matter manipulator all the way.
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Dec 6, 2014 09:44
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it's weird, because it seems like they're trying to make the combat deep and engaging even though the combat usually ends up being one of the worst parts of these games due to the genre they are. i'm not even going to try and pretend that terraria combat is even remotely fun, and i really hope that starbound isn't going to delude itself into trying to have combat that's remotely worth a poo poo despite the innate limitations present because of it also trying to satisfy like 10 other goals at the same time
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Dec 6, 2014 09:46
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XboxPants posted:Your evaluation is right; if they did this intentionally, the reason for adding it should be to intentionally slow down combat. That's why other games that have a stamina system for movement/attack have it. Maybe they thought players were rushing in against enemies enough, and not blocking or dodging enough. Incredible, incredible.
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Dec 6, 2014 09:46
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i mean, gently caress, i'm probably one of the more positive people about the game in this thread but that mostly only hinges on 'at least this should be a cool mod platform when it comes to it'
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Dec 6, 2014 09:52
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Reiley posted:Imagine if Mario had an energy bar and you could jump on three goombas before you have to stop and rest, only the AI was somehow even more basic than that, like limiting how quickly you can stamp out random hopping AI makes the game more challenging. What is the purpose? It's like they're either afraid of letting a player have too much gun combat or they're not sure how their combat is actually supposed to fit in their endless world game. What's the purpose? You're right, they don't want the players to have infinite ammo in their endless world game. There are multiple purposes of the energy system, but one of them is to give the player something else to upgrade. There, that's a reason. Some games you start out being able to shoot like crazy all over, and that works fine, but in this game they start with a limited amount of shooting that you upgrade over time. That's meant to be enjoyable. Some people find upgrading characters like that enjoyable. Your next question'll be "But why did they change the energy system from the old one to the new one?" which is sorta indirectly answered in their update post. They refer to it as "giving players more options", but maybe it'd be more fair to say "forcing them to make choices"? With the old system, your rate of fire was always exactly the same. The only worthwhile option was "shoot as fast as you can until enemy is dead", a mechanically boring one. Boring, but powerful. Now, things are more complex. Guns can still be effective, but you have to put in more effort. If you time out your shots and plan things out, your energy refills much faster than it did before, which means your shots/second, and thus time spent waiting, is actually less. If you don't want to put in any effort, then yeah, you'll be spending time reloading. Basically what I'm saying is they increased both the skill floor and skill ceiling on gun use. Maybe they only did that because they thought guns were too boring, but I bet they also did it because guns were overpowered.
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Dec 6, 2014 10:04
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Guns were never, ever overpowered.
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Dec 6, 2014 10:08
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Wowowowowow.
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Dec 6, 2014 10:09
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IronicDongz posted:Guns were never, ever overpowered. I meant, as in that was their motivation, that was what they thought. Sorry, wasn't trying to start a fight about that particular issue.
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Dec 6, 2014 10:10
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XboxPants posted:I can't tell, is everyone trolling, or not? Do we just not play games? This is the same system used in a lot of games, like with jetpacks or guns that overheat. Alright, remember Half-Life 2? In HL2, your Sprint and Flashlight were tied to energy, which meant if one quit they both did. In Episode 1, Valve realized tying "Movement" and "Combat Viability" together sucked balls and detached them. Now imagine a game that ties "Movement" and "Actual Firing Of Weapons" plus "Toys" (shields, anything that uses ammo) together. The only other game I can think of that tied those together is Tribes 2, and the energy weapons stank out loud compared to ammo weapons for exactly that reason. High movement is vital to that sort of combat, so you get to choose Move or Shoot (stationary sniping, or flying-and-spinfusoring). Full disclosure, I really want Starbound to be a good game, but come on now.
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Dec 6, 2014 10:24
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Evilreaver posted:Full disclosure, I really want Starbound to be a good game, but come on now. Quit trolling please.
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Dec 6, 2014 10:34
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Evilreaver posted:Alright, remember Half-Life 2? In HL2, your Sprint and Flashlight were tied to energy, which meant if one quit they both did. In Episode 1, Valve realized tying "Movement" and "Combat Viability" together sucked balls and detached them. Dark Souls does it in almost exactly an identical way to Starbound, except even more harshly, and it works fantastically well. Normal walking doesn't take stamina, but almost everything else does. "Attacking, blocking, dashing, jumping, rolling, parrying, shooting arrows, back stepping, backstabbing, and riposting will consume stamina. If you run out of stamina or, 'bottom out' your character will be unable to do any such actions until your stamina regenerates." I know it sounds like the end of the loving world, but maybe try playing it before shouting that the sky is falling? I know everyone in here is sure that any time a player experiences even a fraction of a second of discomfort, the game experience has been ruined, but maybe you're totally loving wrong about that and actually don't know poo poo about what makes a good game? It's not like they're come to your house and personally freeze you in carbonite or something when you run out of energy, you'll still be able to move around and use melee weapons and throwables and poo poo.
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Dec 6, 2014 10:35
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Games should be fun. Geez, this shouldn't be something you can debate, games should be fun. When you get into a fight, you should be running, jumping, shooting poo poo all over the screen, exploding everything, and making life hell for those who defy you. Maybe not from Hour 1, but late game that should be the goal- you've earned the right to rain death. Terraria did this supremely well, as you get a Megashark with special ammo that fucks everything up at once, or any of a dozen spells, etc. Even Factorio, a building game, lets you get power armor and a cloud of doomsday drones. As far as I can see, the goal of Starbound is "You get to shoot twice" upgrades to "You get to shoot four times" at top tier. Shoot, stop. Shoot, stop. Jump just once or you can't shoot! Compare GTA V with Saint's Row 3/4. One of them is frequently annoying to play, the other has a dubstep gun and superpowers. One kinda strives for realism, the other lets you pull weapons and vehicles out of midair and go on a spree. Evilreaver fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 10:35
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Evilreaver posted:Games should be fun. Geez, this shouldn't be something you can debate, games should be fun. Yeah, it should be in debate. If it was that easy, every game would be exactly what you suggest and they'd all be the most perfectly fun game ever. Games need to actually be interesting and challenging, otherwise you're just playing in god mode and that's not even a game. Just automatically giving a player as much destructive power and explosions doesn't actually make for good game design, you just don't know poo poo.
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Dec 6, 2014 10:39
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Starbound's combat is just like Dark Souls.
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Dec 6, 2014 10:40
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XboxPants posted:Yeah, it should be in debate. If it was that easy, every game would be exactly what you suggest and they'd all be the most perfectly fun game ever. Games need to actually be interesting and challenging, otherwise you're just playing in god mode and that's not even a game. Just automatically giving a player as much destructive power and explosions doesn't actually make for good game design, you just don't know poo poo. Like I said, that's not Hour 1, you earn Godmode through the course of the game. Look at the Wizard in Diablo 3, fast-regenerating mana that leaves you vulnerable when you run out, but a shitload of explosions with that mana. Starbound replaces 'shitload of explosions' with 'fire a gun 4 times' and that is the trouble we're having.
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Dec 6, 2014 10:45
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My point earlier is that guns are already super loving weak. If we have that, that alone should be enough for their tradeoff for the benefit of range. They don't also need to tap into an already-in-demand energy bar for mana-ammo.
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Dec 6, 2014 10:49
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See also, my constant bitching about the looping treadmill of combat effectiveness in starbound as you go from one tier to the next  You can survive seven dev plan compliant hits now against even tier enemies and Kill enemies in X swings of my hammer! Wait, we're back to at least three hits before you die and take X+Y hits to kill basic anemies now that you have moved on to new biomes for new ores... Okay, you are back to being able to survive seven hits against even tier enemies and killing them in X hits. Time to move on to the next tier and die in three hits wait this seems familiar... *Looks back on every single equipment tier biome change* gently caress. Well, at least now my numbers are bigger and I have built in poison filters on my armor? Hell if I know how my crafted weapons have 'improved' compared to any other tier's effectiveness though  EDIT: I can gently caress up everything from the first enemies to Gwyn himself with that shortsword and armor I started the game with in Dark souls (provided my casual rear end throws upgrades into the thing every so often). That's kind of doubtful in Starbound's case but then we are only allowed to use the "Hard" parts of Dark souls to shout down any dislike of features while ignoring it's actual skill based and forgiving aspects I guess. vvv I keep SAYING they shouldn't have god mode, but the Devs keep using it anyways to showcase things that would kill them instantly otherwise Blizzard Game design is what the looping treadmill of sameyness I keep bitching about is.
Section Z fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 10:51
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Section Z posted:See also, my constant bitching about the looping treadmill of combat effectiveness in starbound as you go from one tier to the next This, though, is a super big problem. Even if the game doesn't become easier , more mechanics need to be introduced in each system, like how some game might introduce a new magic system in a new area or whatever. Evilreaver posted:Like I said, that's not Hour 1, you earn Godmode through the course of the game. Look at the Wizard in Diablo 3, fast-regenerating mana that leaves you vulnerable when you run out, but a shitload of explosions with that mana. Starbound replaces 'shitload of explosions' with 'fire a gun 4 times' and that is the trouble we're having. You're full of poo poo. Fire a gun 4 times was in the gif as the start of the game. Later weapons are much more powerful and you have much more energy upgrades, there's psi-staves, weird rare/craftable explosives, etc etc. You're confusing mechanics with, I guess, aesthetics? With the new system, you can shoot single bullets, or choose to blow your whole bar of energy on a single attack ("4 bullets") that'll one-shot an enemy, leaving you temporarily vulnerable. Would you be happier with it if, instead of firing four bullets, it was a flaming hyper laser with streaking blue lightning in every direction? Making it more similar to an ultra-attack, but mechanically, functionally identical? If you think hyper-lasers are okay but four bullets aren't, this is a sign that there's nothing wrong with the system. Also, you should never have god mode. Blizzard game design is boring as hell, masked with tons of cool coats of paint. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 10:58
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XboxPants posted:You're full of poo poo. Fire a gun 4 times was in the gif as the start of the game. Later weapons are much more powerful and you have much more energy upgrades, there's psi-staves, weird rare/craftable explosives, etc etc. Love, Laugh, Live.
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Dec 6, 2014 11:01
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:requoted in case you missed it:Section Z posted:See also, my constant bitching about the looping treadmill of combat effectiveness in starbound as you go from one tier to the next This, though, is a super big problem. Even if the game doesn't become easier , more mechanics need to be introduced in each system, like how some games might introduce a new type move for the player in a new area or whatever. Section Z posted:EDIT: I can gently caress up everything from the first enemies to Gwyn himself with that shortsword and armor I started the game with in Dark souls (provided my casual rear end throws upgrades into the thing every so often). That's kind of doubtful in Starbound's case but then we are only allowed to use the "Hard" parts of Dark souls to shout down any dislike of features while ignoring it's actual skill based and forgiving aspects I guess. No, you're probably right, I imagine beating top-tier Starbound bosses with bottom-tier equipment would be tedious to the point of insanity, and you'd probably get one shot. There are some differences, like how Starbound's lack of character level makes weapon strength more of a differentiator than in DS, but mostly you're right. Starbound's probably gonna focus more on gear over skill. And that's why, when they add little things like this energy system that let you recharge your energy bar faster by playing more carefully, I welcome those changes. Or maybe I'm missing your point here? I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say, other than the fact that Starbound is gonna be less skill-based than Dark Souls which, yeah, of course.
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Dec 6, 2014 11:14
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XBoxPants, is this really the hill you want to die on?
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Dec 6, 2014 11:20
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XboxPants posted:Also, you should never have god mode. Blizzard game design is boring as hell, masked with tons of cool coats of paint. Okay cool but Terraria was really great, had 'godmode' (your word, remember) and wasn't made by blizzard - it's the first example I made, and is the closest game relative to Starbound I'm saying that a game should be fun to play, and sitting around waiting to do something sucks, especially when you have to time out from combat over and over to do it. It sucked in Gears of War (or any game with regenerating health/mana, particularly with shallow pools), Half-Life 2 (flashlight/sprint combination), etc etc
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Dec 6, 2014 11:22
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Vanderdeath posted:XBoxPants, is this really the hill you want to die on? There's a lot of awful things about Starbound (samey treadmill, lovely air control) but this specific one thing isn't one of 'em and I'll defend it forever, or possibly until I play it and decide that it's actually not fun after all, one or the other.
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Dec 6, 2014 11:32
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Vanderdeath posted:XBoxPants, is this really the hill you want to die on? Xpants is a games Lich, birthed from the unholy flames of the OUYA thread. Nothing can kill him, not truly.
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Dec 6, 2014 11:33
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All I ever wanted from Starbound was sandbox Soldat. It was so close.
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Dec 6, 2014 11:34
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Reiley posted:All I ever wanted from Starbound was sandbox Soldat. It was so close. But holy poo poo at least they're not as bad as Starbound's guns. They might as well be shooting literal peas and the april fool's day gun sounds video was unironically more satisfying and solid feeling than the actual gun sounds we ended up with.
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Dec 6, 2014 11:40
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I have this weird feeling that in the interest of being EXPERT GAME DESIGNERS they're looking for overly complicated solutions to non-existent, already solved problems, viz: combat in 2d sidescrolling games
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Dec 6, 2014 11:58
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Vanderdeath posted:XBoxPants, is this really the hill you want to die on? His graves already litter the earth.
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Dec 6, 2014 12:09
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victrix posted:I have this weird feeling that in the interest of being EXPERT GAME DESIGNERS they're looking for overly complicated solutions to non-existent, already solved problems, viz: combat in 2d sidescrolling games One of the problems is that all the normal solutions are for games that don't have garbage level design, but that doesn't work for Starbound. The procedural levels mean it's really hard to ever be sure of anything. (you try to create a procedural engine that creates good levels, but it'll never be as good as hand-made ones) Easy example, a lot of platformers only let you shoot left & right, because the designers can be sure you'll never need to shoot directly above you. But you can't be sure of that in Starbound so now you need free aiming. Now, suddenly everything's a lot less "tight" than it was in the "left/right only" game, much looser, and it takes 10 times as much effort and skill to make the "aim anywhere" game as fun as the "left/right only" game. Even a game that's got really tightly balanced systems and physics and levels, you'll notice that the most annoying spots are the ones where you get stuck in some weird little corner where you can't maneuver right, or there's not enough space to jump around the enemy, or there's a piece of the level geometry that sticks out in a lovely way and just makes things awkward. That happens occasionally even in a carefully planned game, but imagine a game where, as a designer, it's hard to control how often that happens? So you find yourself trying to give your player as many tools as possible. Even gameplay systems that are pretty much "already solved", you find yourself thinking about other possible solutions or tools you can give to the player, in case he gets in a weird situation you didn't predict. It's a lovely problem to have without a lot of easy solutions. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 12:17
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XboxPants posted:Dark Souls does it in almost exactly an identical way to Starbound, except even more harshly, and it works fantastically well. Normal walking doesn't take stamina, but almost everything else does. "Attacking, blocking, dashing, jumping, rolling, parrying, shooting arrows, back stepping, backstabbing, and riposting will consume stamina. If you run out of stamina or, 'bottom out' your character will be unable to do any such actions until your stamina regenerates." greetings. combat in dark souls is very deep and every single encounter, every single enemy in the first 4/5ths of that game is very carefully balanced around expected usage of the stamina meter. starbound is a lovely 2d fart around game where enemies damage you by bumping into you, and nothing is balanced around anything because everything is randomly generated. this is probably the shittiest devils advocate argument you could have made and it makes you sound like you have no idea what the gently caress you're talking about (you probably dont). farewell.
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Dec 6, 2014 12:53
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Soral posted:greetings. combat in dark souls is very deep and every single encounter, every single enemy in the first 4/5ths of that game is very carefully balanced around expected usage of the stamina meter. starbound is a lovely 2d fart around game where enemies damage you by bumping into you, and nothing is balanced around anything because everything is randomly generated. this is probably the shittiest devils advocate argument you could have made and it makes you sound like you have no idea what the gently caress you're talking about (you probably dont). farewell. Or perhaps hes a genius and you fail to understand the true meaning of his point. Your position requires one to reach Neckbeard Rank 2 status to understand and few, even here on SA, have achieved that. Neckbeard 2: The really bad beard.
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Dec 6, 2014 13:07
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Soral posted:greetings. combat in dark souls is very deep and every single encounter, every single enemy in the first 4/5ths of that game is very carefully balanced around expected usage of the stamina meter. starbound is a lovely 2d fart around game where enemies damage you by bumping into you, and nothing is balanced around anything because everything is randomly generated. this is probably the shittiest devils advocate argument you could have made and it makes you sound like you have no idea what the gently caress you're talking about (you probably dont). farewell. Starbound is never going to be Dark Souls. It's never going to be a game where every encounter is super deep and carefully balanced around the expected use of the stamina meter, not like Dark Souls. But you could say the same thing about the HP bar. Does that also imply that an HP bar system is a poor fit for Starbound? I don't see how you've supported your argument very clearly. I never said Starbound was going to be as deep and balanced as Dark Souls, but you haven't made a clear case that it needs that level of balance in order for the stamina system to work. (also enemies don't hurt you by touching you)
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Dec 6, 2014 13:09
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you're a p good fake poster
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Dec 6, 2014 13:13
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god bless you xboxpats
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Dec 6, 2014 13:19
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oddium posted:Chucklefish made an unfun game that doesn't show signs of improving, not too hard to grasp really  oddium posted:But it's okay because they're going to change things at random in the nightlies until they find what people like oddium posted:Actually it's because Starbound's design and development is a muddled mess and they don't know what direction they're trying to nudge this lumbering mass in oddium posted:Chucklefish is a mess
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Dec 6, 2014 13:40
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Reminder that Tiy tweeted this literally two years ago:Tiy posted:The more changes we make, the closer Starbound combat seems to get to Castlevania Symphony of the Night
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Dec 6, 2014 13:41
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XboxPants posted:Dark Souls does it in almost exactly an identical way to Starbound, except even more harshly, and it works fantastically well. Normal walking doesn't take stamina, but almost everything else does. "Attacking, blocking, dashing, jumping, rolling, parrying, shooting arrows, back stepping, backstabbing, and riposting will consume stamina. If you run out of stamina or, 'bottom out' your character will be unable to do any such actions until your stamina regenerates." Which is why, much as I adore dark souls, the way most people default to playing the game first time is to get a big 'ole shield and sit behind it, stunning enemies with the recoil, then poking them with a spear until they fall down. You win by attrition, conserving all of your stamina and only spending it when you can get the most out of it. The stamina system makes dark souls a very defensive and turtly kind of game unless you're pretty good at it, which works with the setting and the controls. But Starbound is a 2d platformer, the entire thing is about moving around with a bunch of crazy abilities, if your goal is to conserve stamina that doesn't tie into the high mobility style that makes 2d platformers fun. The comparison to mario having a jump meter is a pretty valid one, in that jumping is the main thing you do in a mario game, well, in a metroidvania 2d platformer you use your movement abilities a lot. I just can't see it working well to have both things tied to such a restrictive energy pool. That's another thing dark souls does, actually, you can make your stamina bar bigger, it's probably the most useful thing you can do in the game if it comes to that. oddium posted:Reminder that Tiy tweeted this literally two years ago: Which is funny because to my knowledge, SOTN doesn't impose a limit on your movement abilities. Aria of Sorrow doesn't at least, which is the only one of those I've been able to get my hands on unfortunately.
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Dec 6, 2014 13:42
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