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I'm gonna play devil's advocate here for a second. I think I understand what Kyrie is trying to say (Though I don't agree with it). I'll try and translate the crazy as best as I can. Basically The Jewish people had a list of prophecies regarding a messiah that would arrive at some point in the future. Therefore they worshiped and anticipated this messiah, whoever he would end up being. For Kyrie this messiah is Jesus. So in his mind the ancient Jews were effectively worshiping Jesus before he arrived, thereby making them Christians(People who worship Jesus). Jewish people around Jesus' time for the most part did not think he had fulfilled all the prophecies he was supposed to (because he didn't). To Kyrie this makes them a splinter group breaking away from "Ancient Christians." The problem with this line of thinking is that it's not true. It's the same old "My religion is right and yours is wrong because I say so." Christianity is a spin-off of Judaism because the Jews were not as impressed with Jesus as the early Christians because he did not fulfill all of their prophecies.
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Dec 7, 2014 01:06
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Travic posted:I'm gonna play devil's advocate here for a second. I think I understand what Kyrie is trying to say (Though I don't agree with it). I'll try and translate the crazy as best as I can. No, I got what he was saying, but like you know, he's wrong.
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Dec 7, 2014 01:10
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I drove home a homeless guy from work tonight. He was the obnoxious sort that played with the radio and asked if I had money for food, for cigs, for beer. I gave him the few dollars and change I had and drove him for as long as I could get away with with the time I had. He slammed the door shut and didn't even say thank you. Now, why did I do that?
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Dec 7, 2014 01:15
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CommieGIR posted:No, I got what he was saying, but like you know, he's wrong. 
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Dec 7, 2014 01:16
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Berk Berkly posted:Now, why did I do that? Because you are....a nice guy? Without Jesus?! WITCH!
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Dec 7, 2014 01:19
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Nessus posted:There is the possibility here that you are confusing the shift of Judaism as the religion of this particular patch of land, which could be called Israel, Judea, etc, to the religion of wandering groups who moved throughout the general Eurasian landmass, which is what it has been in recent historical memory, and still arguably is. You can argue Jesus saw this coming, but the historical event here was the uprising in Judea and the loss of the Temple, which is still felt to this day. If the Israelites had all chosen Christ (who is God) as their King, the uprising in Judea never would have occurred, and they never would have been routed by the Romans. Even the Jews acknowledge that when the Jews are massacred, it is a divine penalty for infidelity to God. quote:It is true that Judaism has often defined itself in comparison to those around it, and you can interpret part of the outcome of many of the Jewish ritual laws as setting themselves distinct from the people among them. However, Judaism has always been open to conversion - it is discouraged not because they don't want the outlanders in the society, but because becoming a Jew involves a much greater burden of observance, and as such a well-meaning Gentile who likes the Jews might innocently wish to join them, not fully comprehending the burden of the mitzvot. Judaism has defined itself by isolating itself from those around it, whereas the true religion of the Israelites upheld universal spiritual values, as we are all children of God. You lie, you do not want outsiders to join your group. And becoming a Jew requires no observance whatsoever, and in fact, many Jews I encounter, such as you, are wholly atheistic, which is all the more proof you need that Judaism is more of a divisive ethnic category than a religion. quote:Now, are there racist Jews in the modern day? Certainly. But if racist actions on the part of modern Jews represents a fundamental flaw in Judaism, does it not seem as though questionable actions done by the Roman Catholic Church, or the Catholic community, would represent a fundamental flaw in Catholic teaching? Judaism upholds this separation as doctrine, whereas Christianity upholds anti-racism as doctrine, and invites all Jews to accept Christ. quote:Oh? If this is the case, why don't you keep kosher? Or do you say that all those religious laws were just, you know, made up stuff, or temporary or whatever. Hypocrite! Do you do any of these things, you who says you do not believe? Paul wrote that the Law was given not so that we might strictly enforce it, but that we might recognize that we are incapable of following it. And you pick and choose from the Old Testament yourselves. Where are your priests? Where are your kings, your eternal Davidic line? Where is your Temple? Do you intend to stone people to death for blasphemy? Please! Christ, who is God, emphasized the most important parts of the teachings for us to follow, the truly spiritual and higher teachings. Nobody is fooled by a hypocrite who concerns themselves with minute details but ignores the essential parts of the teaching! This is a message reiterated by the prophets time and time again when they say why God is judging the Israelites. "I hate, I despise your feast days," says Amos. quote:Similarly, would this not require the Jews to have had some kind of vision of trinitarianism, which they do not? For that matter, why did the Jews not have a Pope, or bishops, or communion if the religion is the same from the beginning? Of course Jews should be Trinitarian because Jews should be Christian. The priesthood is an Israelite concept (not present amongst the Jews!), bishops are symbolized as sheep herders, an ancient Israelite metaphor due to their origins in Genesis, and Communion is an invention of Christ, although it was prefigured a bit by the bread and wine sacrifice of Melchizedek. quote:In the sense that Jews disagree that Christ fulfilled these prophecies, yes, I suppose this is literally the case, but your construction here suggests that Jews are actively ignoring the obvious blatant truth of your specific religion, instead of, you know, disagreeing. Do you think Muslims are in denial of the truth of the Trinity, too? I am interested in discussing those prophecies now, which I maintain that Christ fulfilled. And of course, I believe that Muslims are in denial of the Trinity. Kyrie eleison fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 01:43
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Travic posted:Basically The Jewish people had a list of prophecies regarding a messiah that would arrive at some point in the future. Therefore they worshiped and anticipated this messiah I think the problem happens here. While the Jewish people expected a messiah I don't think they actively were worshiping him or even the vague concept of him, it was more of a "This guy will show up at some point in time" and they weren't really worried about it until he did. Until then, the big thing with the Jews was really "Follow these laws because you're hosed if you don't." To be more than fair to Kyrie, Jesus stated that the current leaders of the Jewish religion (the Pharisees in the gospels, although it was almost certainly NOT the Pharisees in actuality) cared more about their legalistic interpretations of the law than what was actually important, such as loving others and helping them. Jesus even said if your righteousness did not exceed those of the scribes and Pharisees you didn't have a shot of getting into Heaven, which more or less states that following the Law was good, but what's in your heart is just as important. If you believe that the Jews "lost their way" in caring more about the letter of the Law than what attitude they were to have towards their fellow man, I guess you can kind of say that the current Jewish people are a "splinter" but no, in reality, just no.
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Dec 7, 2014 01:47
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"My religion is right, your religion is wrong, and my religion knows why your religion is wrong"Kyrie eleison posted:If the Israelites had all chosen Christ (who is God) as their King, the uprising in Judea never would have occurred, and they never would have been routed by the Romans. Even the Jews acknowledge that when the Jews are massacred, it is a divine penalty for infidelity to God. Look, there is no reason to go in depth to your argument, because its pretty much wholly wrong. You make a lot of claims that I'd like to see you back up, but I have no doubt someone will go into depth why "Jews are wrong for not instantly converting to Christianity" smugness is both ludicrous and disgusting
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Dec 7, 2014 01:49
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You know, I don't know why anyone bothers to actually study theology anymore. They can just ask Kyrie, after all, who clearly knows more about everyone else's religion/faith/beliefs than they do.
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Dec 7, 2014 01:49
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Wait hold on I missed that post.quote:Even the Jews acknowledge that when the Jews are massacred, it is a divine penalty for infidelity to God. Please tell me Kyrie is not blaming the Holocaust on the Jews and claiming that Jews would agree with him that it was totally their fault.
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Dec 7, 2014 01:51
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Twelve by Pies posted:Please tell me Kyrie is not blaming the Holocaust on the Jews and claiming that Jews would agree with him that it was totally their fault. Yeah, that is a particularly disgusting portion...
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Dec 7, 2014 01:53
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Twelve by Pies posted:
I was saying it in the context of the routing of Judea, which is upheld by rabbis to be a punishment from God, just like the destruction of Israel and Judah. If you look at the theology of the Old Testament, it is absolutely, 100% clear that the Israelites are punished by God for their infidelity. This is what the prophets say over and over again. I do not support the Holocaust, of course.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:00
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Kyrie eleison posted:I was saying it in the context of the routing of Judea, which is upheld by rabbis to be a punishment from God, just like the destruction of Israel and Judah. If you look at the theology of the Old Testament, it is absolutely, 100% clear that the Israelites are punished by God for their infidelity. This is what the prophets say over and over again. You do not support violent things happening to them, but you DO think they are punishments from a merciful god. Alrighty then. Still disgusting.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:02
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Kyrie eleison posted:Judaism has defined itself by isolating itself from those around it, whereas the true religion of the Israelites upheld universal spiritual values, as we are all children of God. You lie, you do not want outsiders to join your group. And becoming a Jew requires no observance whatsoever, and in fact, many Jews I encounter, such as you, are wholly atheistic, which is all the more proof you need that Judaism is more of a divisive ethnic category than a religion. There are "Noahide" laws which boil down to "don't do the obvious things, have some courts of law, and don't eat parts off animals you continue to keep alive." These may be an innovation of the chabadic groups recently. quote:Hypocrite! Do you do any of these things, you who says you do not believe? Paul wrote that the Law was given not so that we might strictly enforce it, but that we might recognize that we are incapable of following it. And you pick and choose from the Old Testament yourselves. Where are your priests? Where are your kings, your eternal Davidic line? Where is your Temple? Do you intend to stone people to death for blasphemy? Please! quote:Of course Jews should be Trinitarian because Jews should be Christian. The priesthood is an Israelite concept (not present amongst the Jews!), bishops are symbolized as sheep herders, an ancient Israelite metaphor due to their origins in Genesis, and Communion is an invention of Christ, although it was prefigured a bit by the bread and wine sacrifice of Melchizedek. quote:I am interested in discussing those prophecies now, which I maintain that Christ fulfilled. And of course, I believe that Muslims are in denial of the Trinity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism%27s_view_of_Jesus posted:Jews believe that the Messiah will fulfill the messianic prophecies of the Prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel.[13][14][15][16] According to Isaiah, the Messiah will be a paternal descendant of King David[17] via King Solomon.[18] He is expected to return the Jews to their homeland and rebuild the Temple, reign as King, and usher in an era of peace[5] and understanding where "the knowledge of God" fills the earth,[6] leading the nations to "end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel".[19] Ezekiel states the Messiah will redeem the Jews.[20]
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Dec 7, 2014 02:04
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Kyrie eleison posted:I was saying it in the context of the routing of Judea, which is upheld by rabbis to be a punishment from God, just like the destruction of Israel and Judah. If you look at the theology of the Old Testament, it is absolutely, 100% clear that the Israelites are punished by God for their infidelity. This is what the prophets say over and over again. Thanks for the insight, Pat Roberston.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:05
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CommieGIR posted:You do not support violent things happening to them, but you DO think they are punishments from a merciful god. Not that you've likely forgotten, but you are conversing with someone who believes it's just and correct for God to hand down eternal, indescribable torment if you happen to call Him a mean name one time. Because apparently the tri-omni creator of all time and space is as thin-skinned as a schoolyard bully.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:06
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Kyrie eleison posted:I do not support the Holocaust, of course. I never said you supported it and I don't think you do. My statement was in reference to yours that even the Jews think that when Jews are massacred, it is divine punishment because they did something that displeased God. This would require you to believe the Holocaust was divine punishment by God, and that the Holocaust was the fault of Jews disobeying or displeasing God. If you don't support the Holocaust, you would need to say that you think God was wrong for punishing the Jews in such a way. Since you would not think God is wrong, then that would require you to say that you do not believe when Jews are massacred, that it is divine punishment because of something the Jews did. I'm talking in general, of course. If rabbis agree that the routing of Judea is punishment from God, then sure, I'll go with that. The problem is in claiming that every time Jews are massacred it is punishment from God. Obviously if you don't support the Holocaust, you believe that Jews can be massacred without it being divine punishment.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:06
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I mean, if a merciful and loving god who gave up his Old Testament persona is using genocides as divine righteous punishment, I think we need to revoke his parole.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:08
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Kyrie eleison posted:I do not support the Holocaust, of course. No, you just think they deserved it and that it was a just punishment from God is all.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:08
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Kyrie eleison posted:I was saying it in the context of the routing of Judea, which is upheld by rabbis to be a punishment from God, just like the destruction of Israel and Judah. If you look at the theology of the Old Testament, it is absolutely, 100% clear that the Israelites are punished by God for their infidelity. This is what the prophets say over and over again. Kyrie, are you saying the Jews called God a bitch and the Holocaust was their punishment?
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Dec 7, 2014 02:14
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Who What Now posted:No, you just think they deserved it and that it was a just punishment from God is all. You've said your vision of God is such that anything God does is good - because, by definition, anything God does is good. You've also said "even the Jews agree their massacres are punishment from God." Which means that these massacres are specifically originating from God, rather than being contingent events that, perhaps, God permits for the sake of free will, the way God might permit a volcano or an ice storm that kills a lot of people. They are things which originate from God, positive acts from God, which are, by definition, good. The Holocaust can't really be construed as NOT being a massacre of Jews. (It was other things too of course, but we're considering this theological point here, since we're giving a specific authorship of mass killings of Jews to punishment from God.) So, it must have been good, a just punishment. What was God punishing the Jews for?
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Dec 7, 2014 02:17
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Nessus posted:What was God punishing the Jews for? He covered this: For not converting to Christianity and rejecting Jesus. Oh, and their traditions.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:18
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Yesss this is how we're finally going to defeat Kyrie, with spluttering outrage.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:20
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CommieGIR posted:He covered this: For not converting to Christianity and rejecting Jesus. Oh, and their traditions.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:20
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Wait a minute (I guess he isn't reading this but oh well): Kyrie if God sent the Holocaust how can you not support it? Wasn't it just?
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Dec 7, 2014 02:22
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SedanChair posted:Kyrie, are you saying the Jews called God a bitch and the Holocaust was their punishment? It was probably just one Jew who called him a bitch, some 3500 years later. If there are two things God loves its collective punishment doled out long after the actual offenders are dead. An interesting thought has just occurred to me. Had the Jew(s) not angered God so much that he choose to punish them would the Holocaust have happened at all? Or does God just really hate gays, gypsies, Russians, and the other victims of the concentration camps too?
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Dec 7, 2014 02:26
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Torka posted:Yesss this is how we're finally going to defeat Kyrie, with spluttering outrage. Hey I was having a fine old time with the WH40K chat, but if he's got to be present there's really no other option left at this point than contemptuous sniping. Not that he's likely reading this, after all. Odds are he's got me on ignore as ~*punishment*~ being a big meanie.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:27
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Who What Now posted:An interesting thought has just occurred to me. Had the Jew(s) not angered God so much that he choose to punish them would the Holocaust have happened at all? Or does God just really hate gays, gypsies, Russians, and the other victims of the concentration camps too? Political prisoners, people who just were not Aryan enough. Children. Oh boy does god love the children.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:30
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Who What Now posted:It was probably just one Jew who called him a bitch, some 3500 years later. If there are two things God loves its collective punishment doled out long after the actual offenders are dead.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:32
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If God's chosen weapon to punish the Jewish people was the Nazis doesn't that make their claims of being on a holy mission from God true? And that God implicitly supported the Nazi war effort, making anyone who is against Nazi's implicitly against God's will?
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Dec 7, 2014 02:38
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Who What Now posted:If God's chosen weapon to punish the Jewish people was the Nazis doesn't that make their claims of being on a holy mission from God true? And that God implicitly supported the Nazi war effort, making anyone who is against Nazi's implicitly against God's will? That can't be right, solely as it would confuse the cosmology clearly laid down in The Blues Brothers.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:44
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Kyrie eleison posted:Where are your priests? Where are your kings, your eternal Davidic line? Where is your Temple? They were destroyed. You know that. Seriously, Jews today cannot fulfill a bunch of their mitzvot because they need a Temple in which to do it, and the Temple can only be built on the site of the old one. Some Jews are working and praying to get a Third Temple built so they can restore the Levite priesthood and start fulfilling those mitzvot again, but there are a bunch of obstacles, most notably the big honkin' building in the way of construction. Also, Jews who don't fulfill all the commandments they can are being bad Jews according to the Hebrew Bible. Time and time again Jews turn away from the covenant, and time and time again God punishes them for wickedness. Secular Jews represent the Jewish religious ideal just as well as lapsed Catholics represent the Catholic ideal.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:09
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Wow. I don't know what to say. Kyrie is just...evil. This is terrifying. How can people like this still exist? This is the kind of person who burned people at the stake and live a life of nothing but hate for everyone around them. The kind of person who kills with a smile on their face because God told them to. He'd murder every Jew on the planet even though we worship the same god and share the same holy book. As far as the prophecies go the messiah was supposed to be betrayed, rejected, killed, and resurrected. How was he supposed to do that if every person on the planet instantly accepted him? Travic fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 04:14
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Travic posted:Wow. I don't know what to say. Kyrie is just...evil. This is terrifying. How can people like this still exist? This is the kind of person who burned people at the stake and live a life of nothing but hate for everyone around them. The kind of person who kills with a smile on their face because God told them to. I am not a biblical scholar but this does not seem to be what the Jews say about the matter. I do know that the messiah isn't supposed to be some kind of god-man, he will just be a flesh and blood man who is so good and comes at the right time that the world is repaired and everything becomes good. There have been several people who have been held to possibly be the Jewish messiah, but to date all of them have failed, even if some of then (bar Kochba) seemed to be making a start. In their vision, if you did not succeed at the messiah's mission, you were not the messiah, and Jesus clearly didn't establish a world government centered in Jerusalem. (I guess you could claim that if the Vatican fulfilled the reptiloid agenda and did start a unified one world government in Jerusalem, this would validate Jesus's claim - as long as they were following Jewish law!)
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Dec 7, 2014 04:43
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Pththya-lyi posted:Some Jews are working and praying to get a Third Temple built so they can restore the Levite priesthood and start fulfilling those mitzvot again, but there are a bunch of obstacles, most notably the big honkin' building in the way of construction. I've also heard that some Jews think that the Temple should not be rebuilt until they believe the messiah has come. Nessus posted:In their vision, if you did not succeed at the messiah's mission, you were not the messiah, and Jesus clearly didn't establish a world government centered in Jerusalem. On top of that, one of the prophecies of the messiah is that he's supposed to come from King David's lineage, and assuming Jesus was divine and had no earthly father, that would pretty much disqualify him. I think that the writers of the gospels tried to establish Joseph as a descendant of David, but as Joseph was not Jesus' father I'm pretty sure that wouldn't count.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:09
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Kyrie eleison posted:If the Israelites had all chosen Christ (who is God) as their King, the uprising in Judea never would have occurred, and they never would have been routed by the Romans. Even the Jews acknowledge that when the Jews are massacred, it is a divine penalty for infidelity to God.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:57
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If the Israelites became Christians and chose Jesus as their king then Jesus wouldn't have been killed and resurrected and then he wouldn't have died for mankind's sins so whoops.
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Dec 7, 2014 06:01
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Twelve by Pies posted:If the Israelites became Christians and chose Jesus as their king then Jesus wouldn't have been killed and resurrected and then he wouldn't have died for mankind's sins so whoops. This is notably absent from the historical record of Jesus, and while I'm sure he's due back any day now, past performance is not proof of future results.
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Dec 7, 2014 06:25
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Nessus posted:Yeah, the idea of the Messiah is he fixes the world and it's great, nobody argues over theology, everyone peaces out and relaxes. Exactly. Jesus didn't fulfill his end of the bargain (He got a lot of it though), but if Kyrie wants to worship him that's fine. He was a great guy and did a lot of good. Kyrie just needs to stop smugging so hard about how all Jews are going to burn forever because they won't accept him. Torka posted:Yesss this is how we're finally going to defeat Kyrie, with spluttering outrage. We tried giving him facts, evidence, pointed out holes in his logic, proved how Jesus has not fulfilled the prophecies he had to to be considered the messiah, and quoted the Bible at him. He's already been defeated he is just sticking his fingers in his ears and going, "Glory, glory, glory, God is amazing, Jews are scum, lalalala, the Holocaust was justified." We're just making fun of him now. Travic fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 06:57
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Well there's that but the point is that without the Jews rejecting Jesus he couldn't have accomplished what Kyrie believes was the entire point of Jesus existing. Same with Judas, if he hadn't betrayed Jesus, Jesus probably wouldn't have been executed and then oops, mankind's sins don't get forgiven and literally everyone goes to Hell by Kyrie's beliefs. The Jews rejecting Jesus was basically required for Jesus to be executed, so you can't believe the Jews should have accepted him, or else all of humanity would be hosed. Now of course that sets up the question of why God would punish them for doing what he needed them to do and of course Kyrie would respond with the potter analogy about a potter making lovely pots and that's his right to do so as a potter, but the fact still remains that the Jews accepting him was never an option, they shouldn't have done that, nay, they couldn't have done that without damning humankind. Thus he's an idiot and wrong to claim they should have accepted Jesus by his own beliefs.
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Dec 7, 2014 07:04
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