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Encouraging immigrants to use German in their everyday life is not the same as telling them that they have to use German.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:22
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"Wer dauerhaft hier leben will, soll dazu angehalten werden, im öffentlichen Raum und in der Familie Deutsch zu sprechen." Doesn't sound like simply encouragement to me. loving xenophobic, racist degenerates.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:22
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:http://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/integrations-papier-der-csu-die-csu-ist-in-absurdistan-angekommen-1.2255363 Every time I think Bavarians can't get any dumber or more insane, something like this happens and I get a little bit more cynical.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:24
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:"Wer dauerhaft hier leben will, soll dazu angehalten werden, im öffentlichen Raum und in der Familie Deutsch zu sprechen." You could call it urging, if you find encouragement too soft but neither the Duden nor other dictionaries support the interpretation of the passage statuating a duty to speak German at home. Some SPD and Greens like to interpretate it that way, but I don't think that the word of the political opposition is very useful in defining what somebody said. It's not like we'd just take the CSU's word that the left is trying to bring back communism everytime they talk about raising taxes at face value either. Edit: Also, why does the secretary general of the CSU look like a puffy Kai Diekmann. 
Randler fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 22:31
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Randler posted:You could call it urging, if you find encouragement too soft but neither the Duden nor other dictionaries support the interpretation of the passage statuating a duty to speak German at home. Some SPD and Greens like to interpretate it that way, but I don't think that the word of the political opposition is very useful in defining what somebody said. And the CDU. And even members of the CSU. Seriously, the indented this is not very ambiguous.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:32
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"Soll dazu angehalten werden" is a wee bit short of saying "Soll gezwungen werden". And to me it mostly sounds like a PR way of saying it anyways.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:36
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A position paper for a party summit isn't legislation, but actually building special Language Police units to nose into people's interactions at home is a uselessly high threshold for calling something racist. "Sollen dazu angehalten werden" very much suggests consequences for noncompliance, though of course it's all nonspecific enough for people who aren't inclined to think anything is ever racist to what's-the-big-deal it.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:49
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At this point I think the CSU-leadership is made up of demons badly impersonating human beings. Or they're alcoholics and drunk 24/7. Take your poison.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:53
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Hamiltonian Bicycle posted:"Sollen dazu angehalten werden" very much suggests consequences for noncompliance, (...) I recommend you go to Google in a clean (no previous search history) tab and set the date range to something before November 2014 (to filter out current news stories). Then search for "soll dazu anhalten", "soll dazu angehalten werden" and similar phrases. You will see notice that the majority of hits for those phrases will relate to situations, where no formal consequences or no actual consequences at all are threatened or implied. Examples from my time travel with Google: Ein Bonusheft soll Patienten zu regelmäßigen Arztbesuchen anhalten, eine App soll Leute zum Stromsparen anhalten, ein Veggie-Day (  ) soll Leute zu gesünderer Ernährung anhalten.
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Dec 6, 2014 23:03
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Germany Discussion - Semantics Over Policy Since 2014
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Dec 6, 2014 23:06
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The problem is not that there will be soon a language Gestapo. The problem is that the CSU fosters xenophobia in the population to get more support and to distract the people from the real problems. See also the foreigner only car toll. CSU are scum who indirectly promote discrimination of and violence against non-Germans just to get more percentage points. They are horrible, horrible people. Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 23:08
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:CSU are scum who indirectly promote discrimination of and violence against non-Germans just to get more percentage points. They are horrible, horrible people. I agree with that. Which is what made it so surprising that it wasn't the CSU who went on the record saying that deliberately making up statistics to give immigrants a bad name was totally okay and not all a reason for disciplinary party actions. (Cetero censeo, Sigmar Gabriel is a bad person.)
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Dec 6, 2014 23:23
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Randler posted:I recommend you go to Google in a clean (no previous search history) tab and set the date range to something before November 2014 (to filter out current news stories). Then search for "soll dazu anhalten", "soll dazu angehalten werden" and similar phrases. You will see notice that the majority of hits for those phrases will relate to situations, where no formal consequences or no actual consequences at all are threatened or implied. Not seeing terribly analogous examples here. We're talking about the phrase specifically in terms of state authority placing incentives and disincentives for behaviour (hey, wasn't the whole Veggie Day thing a huge blowup because Ultimate Carnivores thought they were going to be made to chew cud?) for frequently marginalized and vulnerable people; but I'll stop arguing this and let you have it regardless because a) my idea of what these consequences could be if they actually went somewhere real with this is not the gestapo hyperbole you're taking at face value and b) Lucy Heartfilia's point is by far the more relevant.
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Dec 6, 2014 23:25
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The fact that people are talking about this under the hashtag #YallaCSU is the best thing to ever happen on twitter.
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Dec 6, 2014 23:49
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cebrail posted:The fact that people are talking about this under the hashtag #YallaCSU is the best thing to ever happen on twitter. quote:Immer, wenn der #CSU nichts einfällt, fällt ihr was zu Ausländern ein. #YallaCSU #Maut quote:Man kann über die hirnlose Deutschpflicht-Forderung spotten. Aber hinter der steckt knallhartes rechtspopulistisches Kalkül:( #YallaCSU
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Dec 6, 2014 23:59
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I didn't read the CSU paper and I won't (not living in Bavaria and not hating myself enough in general), but are they also talking about massively increased funding for German language education? Cause, you know, the people who already know this German language they're supposed to speak at home probably aren't the people the CSU is concerned about.
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Dec 7, 2014 01:55
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I heard from an American lady who moved to Germany with her 10-year-old daughter. The daughter was doing well enough to be in regular school, but was having trouble with the grammar. The mom asked the teacher how all the Turkish immigrant kids learn German. The teacher responded, "it doesn't matter if they learn German, they're just going to work in a kebab shop anyway."
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Dec 7, 2014 02:06
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Ok, build a wall around Bavaria instead.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:40
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:Ok, build a wall around Bavaria instead. That's a good idea. I think it's what everyone wants. I love Bavarians. They were both the friendliest and most racist people I met in Germany.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:57
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After we all bashed Bavarians and the CSU we might understand why this is a great idea (immigrants speaking German at home). While I don't think the government can force people to do it, it would help their children a whole lot. From my annecdotal experience I can say that the success of immigrant children is closely linked to their ability to speak German. It's important to note that we are not speaking about the 1% of immigrants in Germany that speak English/French with their children, but the majority which speaks Arabic/Turkish/Russian. The next argument that the left likes to bring up is "globalized world" and how it is an asset to speak multiple languages. Which is not false, but you need to get your Hauptschulabschluss/Realschulabluss/Abitur first and speaking another language is a nice asset to have, but not more. For me it's a travesty that children that were born and raised in Germany have trouble speaking the language because their parents never spoke to them in German and their first contact with the language is when they get into school. I'm sorry but if you want to stay in Germany you have to speak German.
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Dec 7, 2014 07:51
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I suppose you could say, "Deutschland den Deutschen", no? I'm continuing to enjoy the slow equalization of American and European politics
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Dec 7, 2014 08:17
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GaussianCopula posted:It's important to note that we are not speaking about the 1% of immigrants in Germany that speak English/French with their children, but the majority which speaks Arabic/Turkish/Russian. Wow, thanks for explicitly confirming what everyone's been saying about the CSU being racist and xenophobic. GaussianCopula posted:For me it's a travesty that children that were born and raised in Germany have trouble speaking the language because their parents never spoke to them in German and their first contact with the language is when they get into school. I'm sorry but if you want to stay in Germany you have to speak German. Anecdotal evidence yeah, but every single time I've ever seen a young family consisting of foreign parents (from Russia, Turkey, Africa, those brown or otherwise non-western countries that reactionaries love to despise), the child has always sounded like a normal German kid, and the parents speak (sometimes broken) German back to them. I can't help but get the feeling you've become a victim of the CSU's latest barely-existent boogeyman. Also not Godwin-ing, but exactly that same line of "think of the children being brought up un-German!" justification has been used in this country's not-too-distant past for far more heinous things. Drone fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 08:38
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Can't cite a source because I heard it on the radio, but speaking German is not a problem for children of immigrants. There are statistics. So the CSU is lying as usual.
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Dec 7, 2014 08:58
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It's not as simple as that. Yes, the overwhelming majority speaks German just fine. The real issue (and tragedy) is that they often lag behind in school because of language issues, and while they do eventually catch up, that usually happens after they've already been told that they're stupid and sent off to Hauptschule to be with 'other problem kids.' The three-tiered system is poo poo for everyone, but it most severely disadvantages children of immigrants. Oddly enough, that's the one aspect of PISA that most states haven't really addressed in their reforms. I'm on mobile, so I can't currently find it, but when Hamburg tried to make elementary school span 6 years (thus giving children a chance to develop before they're separated), it turned into a total poo poo show. I'll have to find the video where the 1% was utterly outraged by the notion of their precious geniuses being held back by two more years of school with 'Arbeiterkindern und Ausländern.' Bill didn't pass, obviously, because the people it was supposed to help were too disillusioned and/or uninformed to actually go to a polling place and vote for it
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Dec 7, 2014 10:29
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GaussianCopula posted:For me it's a travesty that children that were born and raised in Germany have trouble speaking the language because their parents never spoke to them in German and their first contact with the language is when they get into school. I'm sorry but if you want to stay in Germany you have to speak German. icantfindaname posted:I suppose you could say, "Deutschland den Deutschen", no? IIRC america requires you to take language courses when immigrating if you cannot show existing language skills. Is that "the slow equalization of American and European politics" you are talking about? Because if it is, you chose the one example were american policies actually make sense. Lucy Heartfilia posted:Can't cite a source because I heard it on the radio, but speaking German is not a problem for children of immigrants. There are statistics. So the CSU is lying as usual. Nektu fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 10:29
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Nektu posted:IIRC america requires you to take language courses when immigrating if you cannot show existing language skills. Is that "the slow equalization of American and European politics" you are talking about? Because if it is, you chose the one example were american policies actually make sense. If you want to become a citizen you have to be able to speak German: quote:Sie haben einen Anspruch auf Einbürgerung, wenn folgende Voraussetzungen vorliegen:
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Dec 7, 2014 10:35
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posh spaz posted:That's a good idea. I think it's what everyone wants. Bavarians sounds like barbarians. Makes you think 
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Dec 7, 2014 11:21
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Nektu posted:Now this is a leap of mind that I dont get. Gaussian was talking about language, you are talking about race. If you cannot speak the predominant language, you cannot take part in normal life. It really is as simple as that. Well yes, if you confuse race with nationality, if you pretend that "normal life" is the same throughout all communities and if you pretend that the CSU proposal is just about acquiring enough language skills to get official business etc. done. So if you absolutely get everything wrong, then yes, things are very simple.
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Dec 7, 2014 11:54
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botany posted:Well yes, if you confuse race with nationality, if you pretend that "normal life" is the same throughout all communities and if you pretend that the CSU proposal is just about acquiring enough language skills to get official business etc. done. So if you absolutely get everything wrong, then yes, things are very simple. The ability to take part in the "normal life" of a new society/culture does not take away the ability to take part in the "normal life" of your old society/culture you know. Humans are tribalistic by nature - rules that facilitate the means to overcome this and allow participation in other tribes are a good thing.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:05
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Nektu posted::facepalm: Don't believe the lies of the CSU. This is what the CSU is actually doing and it has nothing to do with integration: Lucy Heartfilia posted:The problem is not that there will be soon a language Gestapo. The problem is that the CSU fosters xenophobia in the population to get more support and to distract the people from the real problems. See also the foreigner only car toll. quote:Immer, wenn der #CSU nichts einfällt, fällt ihr was zu Ausländern ein. #YallaCSU #Maut
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Dec 7, 2014 12:13
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Don't believe the lies of the CSU. This is what the CSU is actually doing and it has nothing to do with integration:  I was still discussing the more general point regarding the necessity of a common language. Lucy Heartfilia posted:If you want to become a citizen you have to be able to speak German: Edit: vvvv Thats probably a good assessment of the CSU. Nektu fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 12:21
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Don't believe the lies of the CSU. This is what the CSU is actually doing and it has nothing to do with integration: These people mean assimilation when they say integration. They understand that they can't kick everyone out who's not German enough for their liking, so they at least want them to be as German as possible. If everyone spoke perfect German and nothing else, they would probably complain that some people still call their children Mohammed.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:22
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Nektu posted:And still reports about some "poor turkish wifes" that are basically restricted to their homes because they dont speak a single word of german pop up now and then. Just slow media days that needs filling? Are news reports known for reporting on things objectively, proportionately and without exaggerations? Are humans in genrally known to correctly identify problems and their magnitude? See: shark attacks, people being afraid of flying instead of driving by car, etc.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:29
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Are news reports known for reporting on things objectively, proportionately and without exaggerations? Are humans in genrally known to correctly identify problems and their magnitude? How do you know that your perception of the Nektu fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 12:38
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Because it's the opposite of the CSU.
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Dec 7, 2014 13:21
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Insofar as we're tackling problems with the integration of immigrants into German society, there are many bigger issues that, if tackled, could benefit more people, but they're almost all on the side of society: starting from high-level issues like discrimination against immigrants and general racism in everyday life to more detailed things like providing helpful translations of relevant laws and regulations in multiple languages, revisiting the way we grant work permits to people who are otherwise staying here for years completely dependent on the state as well as the opaque and unfair process for deportation. On the other hand, forcing them darn furreiners to speak the Sprache der Dichter und Denker not only seeks to establish the superiority of our Kultur, but also places the onus squarely on those we can other and exclude, who have no voice of their own in the political discourse. This, more than anything, is my big problem with the "Make 'em speak German" proposal. (Well, there's also Lucy's position that "Does the CSU like this?" is an excellent question to be asking yourself anytime you wonder if a specific proposal should be given the benefit of the doubt.)
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Dec 7, 2014 13:45
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:"Wer dauerhaft hier leben will, soll dazu angehalten werden, im öffentlichen Raum und in der Familie Deutsch zu sprechen." Und Gartenzwerge zu besitzen!
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Dec 7, 2014 15:13
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Nektu posted::facepalm: Why should people be forced to participate in the 'normal life' of a new society? If they want to, clearly they will, however choosing not to seems to be an unacceptable choice to you. You could make an argument against immigration solely based on 'well we can't let anyone who wants to come here come here' but that's not the argument you're making, and anyways Germany's demographics are such that cheap immigrant labor is an economic positive from any angle. The reasoning behind making people speak the language is patently "people are choosing to be Different Than Us, and we don't like it one bit". Deutschland den Deutschen, in other words. Outside of situations where it would cause economic hardship people have a right to freedom of movement, but Germany does not have a right to impose its way of life on others. You don't have a right to ensure your neighbors are the Right Kind of People, sorry TL/DR Nation-states are an affront to God and the sooner they die the sooner I can piss on their grave icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 15:15
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It's so transparent because nobody ever talks about schiebing ab criminal germans.
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Dec 7, 2014 15:23
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Kidney Stone posted:Und Gartenzwerge zu besitzen! Nein. Holzwichtl. Gartenzwerge sind bereits veraltet.
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Dec 7, 2014 15:39
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