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sausage eyes posted:All it is a a rhetorical tool to explain structural oppression through individual experience. This was one of my favorite threads in LF - "explain yourselves, sex havers!" - accusing anyone who had ever had sex of discrimination. After all, if you are at all sexually attractive or good at sex, sleeping with you is a benefit. And if you distribute benefits based on things that people have no control over - the symmetry of their faces, broadness of their hips or shoulders, etc. - you're being discriminatory by definition. It's one of the reasons that I consider egalitarianism a goal always worth striving for but which is absolutely unachievable (and not desirable to achieve). This is a definite IMHO though. The Insect Court posted:Racism was(and is) used to create a false sense of shared identity between poor whites and white elites so the latter court exert social control. That's hardly a novel or controversial observation. I actually agree with your perspective, but I have to call you out for the meandering clusterfuck of language in the bolded section. "Serving to create a form of false consciousness by pretending" is called "making people think" or just "lying".
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Dec 7, 2014 22:22
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Mortley posted:This was one of my favorite threads in LF - "explain yourselves, sex havers!" - accusing anyone who had ever had sex of discrimination. After all, if you are at all sexually attractive or good at sex, sleeping with you is a benefit. And if you distribute benefits based on things that people have no control over - the symmetry of their faces, broadness of their hips or shoulders, etc. - you're being discriminatory by definition. It's one of the reasons that I consider egalitarianism a goal always worth striving for but which is absolutely unachievable (and not desirable to achieve). This is a definite IMHO though. "Here's why you really should sleep with me to be a good feminist!" - an LF goon discovering importance of intersectionality.
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Dec 8, 2014 01:23
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Gantolandon posted:"Here's why you really should sleep with me to be a good feminist!" - an LF goon discovering importance of intersectionality. I'll do it. "Cotton Ceiling" 
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Dec 8, 2014 01:44
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If your leftist movement doesn't address the issues that are faced specifically by women, LGBT people, and minorities, it's poo poo. Saying that black people being aware of and addressing burdens that are shared by all black people is "false consciousness" is as naive and goofy as saying "I don't see color, man."Effectronica posted:What the hell is "identity politics"? What does it mean, besides a buzzword for conservatives and vulgar communists to express their hatred for anything that happened after 1968? The Angry White Male is back, in leftist form!
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Dec 8, 2014 02:32
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Sharkie posted:If your leftist movement doesn't address the issues that are faced specifically by women, LGBT people, and minorities, it's poo poo. Saying that black people being aware of and addressing burdens that are shared by all black people is "false consciousness" is as naive and goofy as saying "I don't see color, man." If your leftist movement doesn't address class, it's poo poo.
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Dec 8, 2014 02:53
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Sharkie posted:If your leftist movement doesn't address the issues that are faced specifically by women, LGBT people, and minorities, it's poo poo. Saying that black people being aware of and addressing burdens that are shared by all black people is "false consciousness" is as naive and goofy as saying "I don't see color, man." Meh? There are lots of issues out there and those faced specifically by women, LGBT people, and minorities are not the only ones that matter or necessarily the ones most important to every group. Not every movement is for everybody and that's probably pretty healthy.
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Dec 8, 2014 02:54
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If your leftist movement is atheoretical and focused on concrete issues it's probably too busy getting things done to hand wring over intersectionality.
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Dec 8, 2014 02:55
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Sharkie posted:If your leftist movement doesn't address the issues that are faced specifically by women, LGBT people, and minorities, it's poo poo. Number Two Stunna posted:If your leftist movement doesn't address class, it's poo poo. The two aren't and shouldn't have to be mutually exclusive, but I think we can all agree that privilege theory and intersectionality, with their individual focus and tendency of degenerating into divisive moralism, are bad guides to either struggle. goatse.cx fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 02:56
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You guys realize that LGBT and race are more than just issues for the left, right? Why in the absolute gently caress would anyone think that turning class struggle into OWS would be a good idea? Have you guys never been to Portland?
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Dec 8, 2014 03:01
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If your movement to change society doesn't address everyone's problems in society and give everyone a place in your new society it's poo poo.
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Dec 8, 2014 03:24
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Job Truniht posted:You guys realize that LGBT and race are more than just issues for the left, right? Why in the absolute gently caress would anyone think that turning class struggle into OWS would be a good idea? Have you guys never been to Portland? Portland is just a place to get laid, drink, eat, and a setting for parts of "Jail" episodes, right?
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Dec 8, 2014 03:25
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Space Whale posted:Portland is just a place to get laid, drink, eat, and a setting for parts of "Jail" episodes, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7cwWegXCU Ignore the comments
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Dec 8, 2014 03:26
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So what's it like in the parts of Portland for people with jobs or or who like to just chill out without all that poo poo tho?
Space Whale fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 03:28
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Space Whale posted:So what's it like in the parts of Portland for people with jobs or or who like to just chill out without all that poo poo tho? Fairly normal. Caring about anything very much is extremely rococo. Okay well, you will still be expected to have opinions about micro-distilled liquor and musical hipster posturing.
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Dec 8, 2014 03:35
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I guess I'm not cool anymore since I turn 30 tomorrow (I'm serious) but wtf does rococo mean in this context.
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Dec 8, 2014 03:41
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Tacky, in bad taste. Portlanders by and large do not want to be hassled with things. You will be considered weird for knowing who your representative is, for example. There is of course the vocal exceptions, but even a lot of those folks are locked into caring specifically about Their Issue. paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 03:47
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Mortley posted:This was one of my favorite threads in LF - "explain yourselves, sex havers!" - accusing anyone who had ever had sex of discrimination. After all, if you are at all sexually attractive or good at sex, sleeping with you is a benefit. And if you distribute benefits based on things that people have no control over - the symmetry of their faces, broadness of their hips or shoulders, etc. - you're being discriminatory by definition. It's one of the reasons that I consider egalitarianism a goal always worth striving for but which is absolutely unachievable (and not desirable to achieve). This is a definite IMHO though. False consciousness is the means by which capitalist societies veil the way relations between classes operate, and mislead the proletariat into not perceiving themselves as such. A specious sense of kinship between the Trayvon Browns and the Barack Obamas is just that. Effectronica posted:In other words, you've never read Ralph Ellison or Richard Wright. Granted, Ellison was an existentialist and thus effectively bourgeois in an artistic sense. If you managed to so wildly misread "Invisible Man" not as Ellison's rejection of a Stalinist CPUSA but instead an endorsement of a proto-neo-liberal anti-socialism written by a black Thomas Friedman then I really don't know how to help you other than to tell you to go back and try again.
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Dec 8, 2014 03:48
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paranoid randroid posted:Tacky, in bad taste. Yanno, if you have anything positive going on at all, and having opinions leads to echo chambers or shouting matches, I see why. I went to a local microdistiller today, on that note. Was fun. paranoid randroid posted:Portlanders by and large do not want to be hassled with things. You will be considered weird for knowing who your representative is, for example. There is of course the vocal exceptions, but even a lot of those folks are locked into caring specifically about Their Issue. Love it already. See you soon I guess or something maybe.
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Dec 8, 2014 03:50
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paranoid randroid posted:Tacky, in bad taste. Oh, so they're the English.
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Dec 8, 2014 03:57
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Space Whale posted:Yanno, if you have anything positive going on at all, and having opinions leads to echo chambers or shouting matches, I see why. Most people get burned out and resign themselves to complaining over shots of whatever's cheap at Langano. It's sad, I saw a lot of cool people get ground down to a nub and just stop trying. Activism is thankless and crushing a lot of the time, and I can understand why slacktivism is such a popular alternative. Less opportunity to get hurt. e. it totally doesnt help that even the good groups that arent sketchy rent-a-canvasser organizations engage in real crappy practices where they dangle paid positions in front of your face, if you just hang on for a little longer computer parts posted:Oh, so they're the English. paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 03:57
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paranoid randroid posted:Most people get burned out and resign themselves to complaining over shots of whatever's cheap at Langano. It's sad, I saw a lot of cool people get ground down to a nub and just stop trying. Activism is thankless and crushing a lot of the time, and I can understand why slacktivism is such a popular alternative. Less opportunity to get hurt. You need to find a balance so you don't burn out, or give yourself time if you do.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:02
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goatse.cx posted:Good ideas should be able to survive vulgarization, It's why you get these absurd rituals, to fill that gap. Make sure you 'check your privilege'! Don't 'mansplain'! Those aren't just vulgarizations, they're attempts to actually make privilege theory useful. And they're complete jokes. That doesn't mean minorities weren't being marginalized, but the post-modern way of looking at it just wasn't good enough to actually be useful. Compare that to modernist thinking, where you have a narrative that not only projects backwards, but forwards as well. It gives you an overall goal, and subgoals that should help satisfy that goal. Right or wrong, you can actually try do something it. At least something more than status-signalling. For a theory to be useful, it has to place the subject at a point in history yet to be written. It has to reveal the mechanics of something, so as to control it. It cannot just be empty self-pitying bullshit, nor simply a way to shut down already existing discussions or work.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:12
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Space Whale posted:If your movement to change society doesn't address everyone's problems in society and give everyone a place in your new society it's poo poo. Ah yes, straight white men, always in danger of being left behind. Who will speak for them? 
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Dec 8, 2014 05:34
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Sharkie posted:Ah yes, straight white men, always in danger of being left behind. Who will speak for them? Yes the people with power don't matter, the majority doesn't matter, you'll just change laws and society with sick burns and emoticons and tweets.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:44
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Space Whale posted:Yes the people with power don't matter, the majority doesn't matter, you'll just change laws and society with sick burns and emoticons and tweets. Space Whale posted:If your movement to change society doesn't address everyone's problems in society and give everyone a place in your new society it's poo poo. "Why didn't MLK stand up for the rights of white guys, too? How could he expect to get anywhere unless he addressed the problems of the majority of white society?"
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Dec 8, 2014 05:50
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Sharkie posted:"Why didn't MLK stand up for the rights of white guys, too? How could he expect to get anywhere unless he addressed the problems of the majority of white society?" MLK didn't say check your privilege, MLK wanted everyone together. I'm not asking for what you think I'm asking. I want belonging not this screechy bullshit.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:52
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Space Whale posted:MLK didn't say check your privilege, MLK wanted everyone together. Letter From Birmingham Jail posted:Lamentably, it is an historical fact that privileged groups seldom give up their privileges voluntarily. Individuals may see the moral light and voluntarily give up their unjust posture; but, as Reinhold Niebuhr has reminded us, groups tend to be more immoral than individuals... "Wait until the revolution is underway for everyone" is the kind of thinking he meant by "more convenient season." Space Whale posted:I'm not asking for what you think I'm asking. I want belonging not this screechy bullshit. If you want to help advance someone's rights, but don't because you don't like the tone of some people who espouse similar ideas, because they're not polite or friendly enough, then you can always find someone, in any political cause, to justify ignoring it. Also, I'd be interested in you defining "screechy bullshit" historically. Like, would you have discounted the entire women's liberation movement of the 60s/70s because of Solanas?
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Dec 8, 2014 06:14
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No, I'd avoid the assholes, find people who weren't assholes, and say "I don't like screechy assholes". Also nobody ever said what privileges I'd lose or have to give up. Just that I would and it's making me uncomfortable, since that's gratifying for sjws to think of normal people.
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Dec 8, 2014 06:32
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Space Whale posted:Also nobody ever said what privileges I'd lose or have to give up. Just that I would and it's making me uncomfortable, since that's gratifying for sjws to think of normal people. What? Discendo Vox posted:Under this metaphor, privilege makes for a poor ruler because its framing is individual- in other words, it is scaled at the microdick level. No you misunderstand, you've got it backwards. You think that because your experience with it is weird people on the internet but weird people on the internet get things wrong and are not a good source to learn from. goatse.cx posted:Good ideas should be able to survive vulgarization, besides, it is hardly coincidence that so many 'sjw's and young activists 'misapply' privilege theory in precisely the same way. At the heart of privilege theory is the idea that privilege could only be revealed to the privileged individuals by listening to the personal experience of the unprivileged individuals - which, being subjective and easily distorted by memory, perspective and socialization, is not a good carrier of truth - and this all works towards a nebulous end, as the best those privileged could do upon realizing their privilege is to be more self-aware and try to check personally oppressive behavior, since them being 'white male' or whatever could never dissociate themselves from their role as oppressors. It's not a good theory and certainly not a good leading light for the left. I don't know what you're talking about but it's not privilege theory. e: there seems to be a lot of hand wringing in this thread about privilege meaning you have to this or have to that and it reminds me of people who are ignorant of evolution believing that evolution prescribes nihilism. SMILLENNIALSMILLEN fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 06:39
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katlington posted:What? A lot of people really enjoy going "oh that makes you feel so uncomfortable, losing your privileges, are you threatened?" (or whatever way they frame it or phrase it) when someone asks "ok so, what do I have that I need to give up or have taken from me?" People in this thread, even!
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Dec 8, 2014 06:45
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Space Whale posted:A lot of people really enjoy going "oh that makes you feel so uncomfortable, losing your privileges, are you threatened?" (or whatever way they frame it or phrase it) when someone asks "ok so, what do I have that I need to give up or have taken from me?" Never seen that before, can you link it for me? And who is taking away anything from anybody?
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Dec 8, 2014 06:48
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katlington posted:e: there seems to be a lot of hand wringing in this thread about privilege meaning you have to this or have to that and it reminds me of people who are ignorant of evolution believing that evolution prescribes nihilism. There's a useful way to suggest "hey, maybe it's not just you, maybe you have help you can't readily see just yet, but it's there, and not everyone has it, poo poo's not fair or equal, so let's make it that way" and there's also "you're not suffering the way I a so gently caress you shitlord." Which is the true scotsprivilege?
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Dec 8, 2014 06:48
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katlington posted:Never seen that before, can you link it for me? And who is taking away anything from anybody? I asked this already and someone said "well cops will lose the privilege to kill black kids and get away with it" which I'm OK with. Not sure how a "privilege" isn't "any act an agent can take" with such a broad (useless) definition but ok? So then I asked what I'd lose as just some random person and it sort of fell apart when SedanChair suggested I not put blood on my door and Hashem would come kill me since I'm a first born or something.
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Dec 8, 2014 06:49
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Space Whale posted:So then I asked what I'd lose as just some random person and it sort of fell apart when SedanChair suggested I not put blood on my door and Hashem would come kill me since I'm a first born or something. That was a joke, guy.
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Dec 8, 2014 06:52
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SedanChair posted:That was a joke, guy. Excuse me I'm a STAR DOLPHIN/Stellar Porpoise non-binary cetacean you poo poo lord.
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Dec 8, 2014 06:54
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Space Whale posted:Also nobody ever said what privileges I'd lose or have to give up. Just that I would and it's making me uncomfortable, since that's gratifying for sjws to think of normal people. Space Whale posted:I asked this already and someone said "well cops will lose the privilege to kill black kids and get away with it" which I'm OK with. Not sure how a "privilege" isn't "any act an agent can take" with such a broad (useless) definition but ok? For someone who types a lot of words about how privilege is a bad and harmful concept you seem to have no idea what it is. Seriously have you ever heard or written about it in a place that wasn't the internet?
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Dec 8, 2014 06:57
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On the unlikely chance that Star Dolphin is genuinely clueless and not actively trolling the thread here's a run down of the kinds of privilege you might lose as a cisgendered white male. This is a useful question to ask even if the person asking it doesn't appear to be debating in good faith. What privileges would you lose? Ideally you would lose the nebulous but very real advantages conferred by your race, gender and class. Since disadvantaged groups would presumably be allowed to exercise a greater claim on the shared resources of society you yourself would probably have slightly less access to those resources. You might face more competition for your job of choice because you would no longer get an automatic advantage from being white or a man. You might lose the privilege of being treated as the social default. You might see more cinema, literature and games with protagonists that don't look like you. You might be forced to confront the fact that much of the sucess you've had in life is due to circumstances beyond your control - that you were born into the right race, class and gender to reap the social advantages that you did. You might lose the privilege of believing that the people you see who are mired in poverty and misery have done something to deserve their current fates. In other words, you might lose the privilege of believing that we live in a just world. You would probably lose some of your personal autonomy. This sounds scary until you realize what it actually entails. To use an example I cited earlier, sexual harassment regulations in the workplace have made it so that joking and flirting around the office are less common than they used to be. Some people really don't like that but those regulations were put in place to prevent a hostile work environment and to remove the bosses ability to use his position as leverage to get sexual gratification from his employees. This is all really common sense stuff Space Whale and if you spent even the tiniest amount of time genuinely trying to listen to what other people are saying or, God Forbid, if you actually researched some of these issues on your own before becoming the loudest and most repetitive voice in this thread then maybe you wouldn't be so confused poo poo like "what do you even mean by privilege"?
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Dec 8, 2014 06:57
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Sharkie posted:For someone who types a lot of words about how privilege is a bad and harmful concept you seem to have no idea what it is. Seriously have you ever heard or written about it in a place that wasn't the internet? No, which is the thing. This is the point. The "crux" of the problem, if you will.
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Dec 8, 2014 06:59
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If you've never encountered a complicated theoretical topic then maybe you should do a basic amount of research before trying to have a debate about it. Just a thought.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:01
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If we're kicking people out for not knowing what they're talking about before talking about it with threads gonna get pretty quiet. I mean, "this all works towards a nebulous end, as the best those privileged could do upon realizing their privilege is to be more self-aware and try to check personally oppressive behavior, since them being 'white male' or whatever could never dissociate themselves from their role as oppressors. " where do people get this stuff? Space Whale posted:I asked this already and someone said "well cops will lose the privilege to kill black kids and get away with it" which I'm OK with. Not sure how a "privilege" isn't "any act an agent can take" with such a broad (useless) definition but ok? I suppose you would lose the privilege of being treated better than discriminated against minorities. That is, you wouldn't be treated any worse, you wouldn't be treated like minorities are now, they would be treated like you are now (if you're a straight white man) and so would you. Space Whale posted:There's a useful way to suggest "hey, maybe it's not just you, maybe you have help you can't readily see just yet, but it's there, and not everyone has it, poo poo's not fair or equal, so let's make it that way" and there's also "you're not suffering the way I a so gently caress you shitlord." Some people seem to read things the worst possible way. I don't know maybe they had a bad first experience with the concept or maybe they are reflexively defensive to new ideas. 
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Dec 8, 2014 07:05
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