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It's not the Lost that's bad game design. It's that there are a small portion of bad design decisions in BoI. In normal play, these bad areas are just annoying since you only see then a few times a run, and you should have enough resources to tank the unavoidable hits. But since the Lost has no buffer, every time the bad part come up, they ruin the entire run, instead of ruining just your experience of that room.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:30
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emanresu tnuocca posted:What's "fair" really, is it fair to play a run where you get 0 damage ups and all item drops are active items which suck? Yes. It is fair to pick up the items the game spawns. It sucks, but it's fair.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:30
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Isaac is really fun most of the time, having a specific character that is neither fair nor fun was probably an intentional choice and I honestly don't see anything wrong with it, you've had people in this thread who've managed to get all the Lost achievements with less than 40 deaths while others had to reset, scam and glitch the game and still died hundreds of times, it seems like an acceptable design choice, he doesn't want people to easily get 100% in his game, why is this necessarily bad game design? B-because muh cheeves! In a seriousness, if people are wound up over the lost, as is, because it impedes a handful of unlocks.. How do they feel about those that used the dead cat glitch before it was fixed? Especially when done by "high profile" people in the Isaac community like that Cobaltstreak guy.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:32
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The thing I have trouble with is not that the Lost is unfair and difficult. I'm fine with that, I don't much care for achievements or % completion. What I do care about is locking a bunch of fun and interesting items behind what is intentionally made to be a frustrating experience.emanresu tnuocca posted:What's "fair" really, is it fair to play a run where you get 0 damage ups and all item drops are active items which suck? Yes, because then you're faced with the challenge of overcoming the poor hand you've been dealt and going far despite it! Overcoming a disadvantage is fun. In the case of, say, being insta-killed by a worm burrowing up under you, there is no challenge to overcome.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:33
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Isaac is really fun most of the time, having a specific character that is neither fair nor fun was probably an intentional choice and I honestly don't see anything wrong with it, you've had people in this thread who've managed to get all the Lost achievements with less than 40 deaths while others had to reset, scam and glitch the game and still died hundreds of times, it seems like an acceptable design choice, he doesn't want people to easily get 100% in his game, why is this necessarily bad game design? Lost itself is not bad game design. Lost is simply more screwed over by the parts that are bad game design.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:33
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emanresu tnuocca posted:What's "fair" really, is it fair to play a run where you get 0 damage ups and all item drops are active items which suck? If you're skilled enough you can still win the game with no stat ups, so yes. Edit: Which reminds me of another awesome game that really did that stuff right, Shovel Knight. You get all these fancy skills that let you shoot projectiles, get brief invincibility, heal yourself, all that good stuff... but that's all to make the game easier. It's still beatable with nothing but your starting setup and the game is designed around that. It's hard as balls, but it's fair and doable. That's the right way to design a game. Your Computer fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 19:35
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I don't see how people are fine with those unfair mechanics. What are you people defending? Yes it's very fair to not get good items. No it's not fair to waste your time on a run simply because an enemy has an unavoidable attack. You could have done everything right, but you died "because". Simple change of "don't let things spawn directly on top of you" makes it fair. There's a way to avoid them if you're skilled. Not if you're simply lucky.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:37
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Mega Fatty's near-instant stomp attack is only sort of fair in that it's utter bullshit if you don't know about it, and it's not really telegraphed in a manner you can sanely react to.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:41
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It's odd how there are actual unlocks tied to The Lost when even Hard Mode seems to have stuffed all the "poo poo nobody actually cares about" unlocks there.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:43
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golden bubble posted:It's not the Lost that's bad game design. It's that there are a small portion of bad design decisions in BoI. In normal play, these bad areas are just annoying since you only see then a few times a run, and you should have enough resources to tank the unavoidable hits. But since the Lost has no buffer, every time the bad part come up, they ruin the entire run, instead of ruining just your experience of that room. To be fair, isn't it kind of unlikely that in a game as modular as Rebirth in room design/layout/enemy spawns that such bad areas would occur with some kind of frequency no matter what? I mean, even if the devs removed some of the ones they felt were truly bullshit, there would still be evil ones they liked and unintentional ones no matter what. I dunno if I'd call that bad game design really, or at least I'd say its subjective. Very, very subjective depending on whether or not you've gotten real plat god yet.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:45
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Doctor Goat posted:Mega Fatty's near-instant stomp attack is only sort of fair in that it's utter bullshit if you don't know about it, and it's not really telegraphed in a manner you can sanely react to. The farther away you are from him, the longer it takes for him to stomp back down. If you keep your distance, you should have more than enough time to get away from it once he jumps up. 
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Dec 8, 2014 19:48
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Logan 5 posted:To be fair, isn't it kind of unlikely that in a game as modular as Rebirth in room design/layout/enemy spawns that such bad areas would occur with some kind of frequency no matter what? I mean, even if the devs removed some of the ones they felt were truly bullshit, there would still be evil ones they liked and unintentional ones no matter what. I dunno if I'd call that bad game design really, or at least I'd say its subjective. Enemy spawns and such aren't random or modular at all, they're all specifically designed to be in the rooms they are in, so no. If you use the D10 to re-roll the enemies, however.. it's you own fault you get a bad room/enemy combo 
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Dec 8, 2014 20:01
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Literal Nazi Furry posted:The farther away you are from him, the longer it takes for him to stomp back down. If you keep your distance, you should have more than enough time to get away from it once he jumps up. Yeah, I understand that now, but my usual strat for bosses was originally trying to stay very close to 'em. That strategy pays off for cubes/bandages/attack fly, but in cases like this it's just a bad idea
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Dec 8, 2014 20:02
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Playing as The Lost should always change your first floor treasure room to be either Kamikaze or Blood Rights.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:18
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LaughMyselfTo posted:Playing as The Lost should always change your first floor treasure room to be either Kamikaze or Blood Rights. Or the razor, or the celtic cross, or the yum heart, or Virgo, or Cancer, or <3, or...
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Dec 8, 2014 20:24
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I'd like to see The Lost get to choose his item from your collection and then not get an item room floor 1. Saves 15 minutes of restart grinding every playthrough, as people are going to do that. Add an achievement for starting and ending the game with the Butter Bean.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:24
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Every time you die as the lost, the game should lock him again, forcing you to do the unlock process over. You see it's a very common roguelike trope therefore 
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Dec 8, 2014 20:27
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RiskyChris posted:Every time you die as the lost, the game should lock him again, forcing you to do the unlock process over. Ooh, this is great! I honestly dislike the whole The Lost unlocking process, though. He should just be unlocked by defeating Mega Satan. Then give him tokens like Eden, which you acquire by defeating Mega Satan again. 
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Dec 8, 2014 20:30
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Ipecac + Soy Milk + Monstro's Lung   Then I picked Tiny Planet because why not:  Killed Mega Satan after that without too much trouble because Stopwatch (and spiders/flies annihilating everything).
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Dec 8, 2014 20:34
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Bear in mind that if Edmund had his way nobody would have even unlocked the Lost by now. The degree of frustration people are experiencing right now is nothing compared to what he had in mind. Reddit was getting pretty close, we would have had it unlocked for nearly the same amount of time. People who make these kinds of things always underestimate how obsessive people on the internet are.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:36
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Reddit was getting pretty close, we would have had it unlocked for nearly the same amount of time. People who make these kinds of things always underestimate how obsessive people on the internet are. He should've done it by having it unlocked by a trillion popped poops worldwide, or something like that. Something that brings the community together, but isn't vulnerable to datamining.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:38
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Yeah, he was less than a week from being deciphered. All it would take would be a few lucky puzzle pieces. Where did the idea behind sacrificing yourself with the lost poster come from? Someone said it was hinted in ending 16 but I unlocked that yesterday and it was nothing like that.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:40
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RiskyChris posted:Every time you die as the lost, the game should lock him again, forcing you to do the unlock process over. No it isn't.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:41
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:I like scumming basic challenges because it makes people like you get all high and mighty about how theirs is the only proper way to play a video game. Go for it, just realize you're playing a preloaded game of solitaire that's 90% done to watch the cards bounce.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:41
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omeg posted:Ipecac + Soy Milk + Monstro's Lung It's always funny to see familiars in these .gifs spitting their tiny little shots. "Hey, I'm helping, right?"
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Dec 8, 2014 20:45
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Justin_Brett posted:It's always funny to see familiars in these .gifs spitting their tiny little shots. "Hey, I'm helping, right?" I wish there was some way to actually make the lovely familiars useful. Someone suggested an item that would apply tear effects to them, that would be fun.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:48
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Lady Naga posted:No it isn't. Losing accumulated progress isn't a roguelike trope? You just might not be hardcore enough I guess 
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Dec 8, 2014 20:53
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RiskyChris posted:Losing accumulated progress isn't a roguelike trope? You just might not be hardcore enough I guess I agree with your point but I don't see why you have to be a dick about it.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:55
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omeg posted:I wish there was some way to actually make the lovely familiars useful. Someone suggested an item that would apply tear effects to them, that would be fun. Ipecac+Any Tear-Shooting Familiar
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Dec 8, 2014 20:56
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Ariong posted:I agree with your point but I don't see why you have to be a dick about it. I think the lost is *almost* good design but is critically held back by just a few game design flaws. It's kind of stupid that I'm more likely to die from, in order 1) Unavoidable bullshit damage ... (long gap in chances of dying) 2) Sloppy play running into a spike ... (even longer gap in chances of dying) 3) Any of the bosses except ??? and maaaybe the lamb or boss rush room And I'm being a dick 'cause Lady Naga is smugging up the thread about how hardcore roguelikes are. I love a challenge. Most fun roguelikes I've played don't even have a point to them (unlocks, achievements, whatever) -- you just play until you die. The lost is NOTHING like those games, so I don't even see the point in comparing them.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:07
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LaughMyselfTo posted:Ipecac+Any Tear-Shooting Familiar Abel.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:07
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RiskyChris posted:I think the lost is *almost* good design but is critically held back by just a few game design flaws. It's kind of stupid that I'm more likely to die from, in order You did a great job of summing up exactly what my problem with the lost is. It's not that you can die of bullshit, it's that bullshit is your primary cause of death! It's so clear now. Still, giving people you think are annoying a "taste of their own medicine", as it were, is usually only asking for trouble.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:11
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Your Computer posted:Enemy spawns and such aren't random or modular at all, they're all specifically designed to be in the rooms they are in, so no. Well I wasn't claiming they were random, but they are somewhat modular aren't they? I mean there are a lot of room configurations that have you can look at and instantly know what enemies are in them, but there are also some that are pretty varied, and considering adding in the different types of champion versions of enemies if you're playing on hard. I've dunked loads of hours into this game and am still getting surprised by them, especially large rooms. Anecdotal sure, but I can't imagine they managed to get even a large percentage of potential configurations as on purpose as possible. And of course then you could add all the potential floor layouts. Then again I've been so wrong about other assumptions I've made about both BoIs sooo... Also I never roll with the D10. I've learned my lesson 
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Dec 8, 2014 21:41
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the other day i was playing as the lost, and got pyromaniac. I thought "Oh goodie, the I-Wish-I-Had-Ipecac item" next floor on a challenge room i find ipecac. then blasting rocks i find a treasure room with 5 devil deals including damage up and There's Options. fighting larry Jr he turns around in front of me and his tail somehow hits me. I'm still salty about that. Anyway, yesterday I finally got my first heart kill as The Lost, and I'm on a run right now with the holy mantle found on first floor. Anything important I should know about its mechanics? Can I exit curse rooms safely?
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Dec 8, 2014 22:29
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ArfJason posted:the other day i was playing as the lost, and got pyromaniac. I thought "Oh goodie, the I-Wish-I-Had-Ipecac item" if the curse room is next to the room you start in, don't enter it! the holy mantle isn't activated at first. so go into another room first and then go back and it will work safely as long as you don't get hit in the curse room
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Dec 8, 2014 22:40
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Davincie posted:if the curse room is next to the room you start in, don't enter it! the holy mantle isn't activated at first. so go into another room first and then go back and it will work safely as long as you don't get hit in the curse room ah cool, also i might just have hosed myself out of a run: Presenting: Ipecac.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:52
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The best thing is that all of the Lost's unlocks (barring the D100) are just giant piles of boring free stats that just let you get those kinda fun but ultimately boring instant clear runs. Also I've learned that it's Mega Maw, not Mega Man. I am a dumb.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:13
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jesus christ
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Dec 8, 2014 23:38
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TheModernAmerican posted:The best thing is that all of the Lost's unlocks (barring the D100) are just giant piles of boring free stats that just let you get those kinda fun but ultimately boring instant clear runs. the heart isn't boring, it just sucks
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Dec 8, 2014 23:53
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TheModernAmerican posted:The best thing is that all of the Lost's unlocks (barring the D100) are just giant piles of boring free stats that just let you get those kinda fun but ultimately boring instant clear runs. The Mind is a kickass item and I enjoy having it in my pool. I like being able to see all of the map forever. Power of Pecota posted:Go for it, just realize you're playing a preloaded game of solitaire that's 90% done to watch the cards bounce. i'll keep that in mind
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