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I think that, in terms of their approach to the philosophy and ethics of the world, BtVS provides answers while AtS provides questions. Buffy portrays its dilemmas as something solvable. The "no easy answers" speech that Giles gives to Buffy when whatshisname from Roswell died in season 2 was very moving, sure...but not actually, truly representative of the show's ethos; the path to those answers might be very hard, and the solutions themselves might be harder than some can bear without being broken, but the way to solve your problems are there, you just have to grit your teeth and find them. Life throws hell at you over and over again, but at the end of the day, you'll also find new ways to deal with hell over and over again. There are no solutions on Angel. It's not even "there are no easy solutions," it's just flat-out "there are no solutions." This is encapsulated in the fact that, for the most part, there are no Big Bads per season; no sense of achievement and resolution at the end of the year when you can take a moment and compartmentalize all you've accomplished. This can come across as overkill sometimes (mark me down as someone who really did not like Lorne's ending), but it also allows you to find strength in ways outside of being "right" or knowing all the answers. If you fail, it's fine; just keep on going. Or die. Who cares? Not the universe.
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Dec 8, 2014 03:53
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Nika posted:I mean...i hear what you're saying but they're completely different shows. Buffy takes place in a black/white universe where good is good and evil is evil, while Angel takes place within a grey, grey world. Buffy's frigidity and adherence to the "rules" are parodied multiple times in her own series, whereas in Angel it can sometimes be hard to tell who the good guys even are. That's because it is all on her. She is the it girl. The last one standing. Angel is just someone helping out in the struggle to save the world.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:32
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Nitrousoxide posted:So I finished Buffy. Guess I was really only right about Spike saving the day. Honestly though, I wasn't really impressed with the sudden appearance of the device that will defeat all the bad guys being delivered by Angel out of the blue. I mean maybe it would have made more sense if I was watching both shows at the same time but it seemed like a Deus Ex Machina sort of solution to the first evil problem. lol actually it was a deus ex machina on Angel too. A ghost literally gives him the amulet without any explanation as to what it is or where it's from.
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Dec 8, 2014 13:29
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Web Jew.0 posted:lol actually it was a deus ex machina on Angel too. A ghost literally gives him the amulet without any explanation as to what it is or where it's from. Wasn't it Wolfram and Hart's attempt to kill/trap Angel? I don't think they planned on or knew about Spike.
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Dec 8, 2014 16:19
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redshirt posted:Wasn't it Wolfram and Hart's attempt to kill/trap Angel? I don't think they planned on or knew about Spike. This is correct. Spike, in typical Spike fashion, hosed up all the best laid plans of the bad guys. I love Spike 
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Dec 8, 2014 16:36
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cool kids inc. posted:This is correct. Spike, in typical Spike fashion, hosed up all the best laid plans of the bad guys. I love Spike Spike is good, but too many of the writers want to gently caress him. It messes with the writing on "Buffy" a lot. "Angel" had a pretty good handle on him. I really wish we could have gotten a season six. And maybe an appearance by Giles.
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Dec 8, 2014 16:45
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Gratuitous Noxon writing/shirtlessness aside, Spike had one of the most complete character arcs out of both shows.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:06
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I feel like Spike completely upset Angel's arc. Is it fair to say the shows made clear that Spike was the chosen Hero, not Angel?
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Dec 8, 2014 17:28
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redshirt posted:I feel like Spike completely upset Angel's arc. Is it fair to say the shows made clear that Spike was the chosen Hero, not Angel? If anything, I felt it was building to both of them fitting the guidelines somehow. I'm sure the writers could have come up with something to make that work.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:31
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Getting hung up on who is or isn't the great big Chosen Hero is kind of missing the entire point of the show...which is pretty much what Spike does.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:33
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redshirt posted:I feel like Spike completely upset Angel's arc. Is it fair to say the shows made clear that Spike was the chosen Hero, not Angel? It was that way by design. If they had just replaced the LA branch scooby with a scooby then none of the catastrophic arcs would have meaning.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:34
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Web Jew.0 posted:lol actually it was a deus ex machina on Angel too. A ghost literally gives him the amulet without any explanation as to what it is or where it's from. To be fair, you could fill like ten pages with all of the instances of Buffyverse deus ex machina.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:09
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Spike was funny and had some great character moments and served as an interesting contrast to Angel. He's very differently motivated than Angel, souled or unsouled. The episode with Spike confronting the insane slayer was one of my favorites because of this. After the bullshit of season 4 - which I'll throw a fit about later - Spike was very welcome. I thought the entire prophecy business - and reality being upset by there being more than one being fulfilling it - was a Not Good part of season 5. This however is probably a personal criticism rather than a objective problem though. I can't describe why the sand shoes prophecy is bullshit, it just is.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:22
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I feel like Spike, more or less, became the main character of Buffy toward the end of the series. He also had the most developed character arc out of anyone in either show that I've seen. Although judging by the episode with Cordelia in season 5, she undergoes some pretty major character shifts as well. She's actually pretty likable in that episode at least which is a huge improvement over the nails on the chalkboard she was in every episode of Buffy and the first few episodes of season one of angel that I saw.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:55
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Nitrousoxide posted:I feel like Spike, more or less, became the main character of Buffy toward the end of the series. It's a toss-up between Wesley, and Spike, honestly. Cordelia is a solid third though.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:57
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^^^  ^^^Nitrousoxide posted:Although judging by the episode with Cordelia in season 5, she undergoes some pretty major character shifts as well. She's actually pretty likable in that episode at least which is a huge improvement over the nails on the chalkboard she was in every episode of Buffy and the first few episodes of season one of angel that I saw. She gets way better as Angel progresses, definitely. I'd say the most complete and compelling character arc on any of the Buffy shows is Wesley, though. It's kind of incredible how organically they transition him from a comedic foil for Giles, to a complex and extremely dark character. Which is somewhat of an irony: he was introduced to Angel as a tonally lighter reaction to Doyle, who the show runners decided was too brooding and dark and took away the dramatic weight of Angel's own stories. Xealot fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 20:02
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Cordelia's role in first season Angel was good, because the first season was about Angel making contact with humanity. Cordelia's very human. Humans have diets and shelter needs that are more expensive than a vampire's. Angel's mission was to be more in contact with humans and preserve his own humanity, so he needed a reminder of this and someone to support. Her greed was the kind that's necessary for human survival. Sure her dream was to make it big but at the moment she was barely able to support herself. It made perfect sense for her to push for monetization. She may have been annoying but she was a good addition to the cast. This is one reason why I didn't like them living in the hotel. It's hard to defend because they have a small crew in a large space that they barely use any of and it was very expensive. And it didn't have a good atmosphere for the show either. The episode introducing it was really good, but I think it should have stayed there. Note the hotel's introduced in Season 3.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:08
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Acne Rain posted:This is one reason why I didn't like them living in the hotel. Season 2, but yeah: how did Angel afford the hotel? It's a giant, opulent deco building in Los Angeles...there's no way that real estate would be in his price range, in any part of the city that would ever have been built. (Apparently the show listed it as being 1481 Hyperion Ave, placing it near Hyperion & Fountain, in Silver Lake. Which is a nonsense place for a fancy midcentury LA hotel, but that poo poo would be expensive as balls now.)
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Dec 8, 2014 20:31
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Xealot posted:Season 2, but yeah: how did Angel afford the hotel? It's a giant, opulent deco building in Los Angeles...there's no way that real estate would be in his price range, in any part of the city that would ever have been built.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:35
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except angel spent his souled time cowering, hiding, etc and probably didn't care about having a big bank deposit for things, and in his unsouled time why would he need money at all instead of just taking what he wants. In season they complain about it being hard to afford, too, without explaining why they needed to be in that hotel specifically.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:37
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I assumed they got it through one of the ways David Nabbit advised (the rich nerd guy the helped out). They asked him about it in one of the episodes shortly after they moved in, and I think we were just supposed to figure that with his help they made it work.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:45
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ShakeZula posted:I assumed they got it through one of the ways David Nabbit advised (the rich nerd guy the helped out). They asked him about it in one of the episodes shortly after they moved in, and I think we were just supposed to figure that with his help they made it work. Agreed. Plus it was abandoned for some time due to the soul devouring demon.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:49
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redshirt posted:Agreed. Plus it was abandoned for some time due to the soul devouring demon. You can't write off real estate that's Sunset Junction adjacent just because of a soul-devouring demon. If the presence of soul-devouring demons impacted east side real estate pricing, maybe I wouldn't have to live so close to the 101.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:55
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redshirt posted:Agreed. Plus it was abandoned for some time due to the soul devouring demon. "You can't live here. Its haunted!" "Its rent-controlled!" I fail to believe.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:10
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Xealot posted:Season 2, but yeah: how did Angel afford the hotel? It's a giant, opulent deco building in Los Angeles...there's no way that real estate would be in his price range, in any part of the city that would ever have been built.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:39
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Didn't Wolfram and Hart threaten to get the government to investigate the hotel and its financing? The guy from Lost was the W&H lawyer, I thihk.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:05
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Xealot posted:You can't write off real estate that's Sunset Junction adjacent just because of a soul-devouring demon. If the presence of soul-devouring demons impacted east side real estate pricing, maybe I wouldn't have to live so close to the 101. "It's just a show; I should really just relax."
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Dec 8, 2014 23:02
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Overthinking shows, and the implications of what they do and don't show on screen, is fun for some people. Maybe it's not fun for you, but don't be a jerk about other people doing it 
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Dec 8, 2014 23:42
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Star Trek ruined everything.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:26
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Acne Rain posted:This is one reason why I didn't like them living in the hotel.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:37
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To be fair I got really mad at certain characters in season 2 Buffy for performing vitally important tasks in the school instead of someplace a vampire would need an invitation to get into (and then vampires attacked them). So maybe I do in fact overthink these things sometimes.
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Dec 9, 2014 02:15
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Acne Rain posted:To be fair I got really mad at certain characters in season 2 Buffy for performing vitally important tasks in the school instead of someplace a vampire would need an invitation to get into (and then vampires attacked them). So maybe I do in fact overthink these things sometimes. Pretty much everything in the show couldve been solved by "why didnt the council just buy them a _____"
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Dec 9, 2014 02:53
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Probably why the Council are antagonistic when they're not just incompetent. They were sort of like the Time Lords of the Buffyverse.
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Dec 9, 2014 03:00
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zVxTeflon posted:Pretty much everything in the show couldve been solved by "why didnt the council just buy them a _____" Pretty much. Those guys were dicks. Shouldn't she at least be getting a stipend or something?
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Dec 9, 2014 03:03
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Xealot posted:Pretty much. Those guys were dicks. Shouldn't she at least be getting a stipend or something? Yeah. Here's Buffy working in fast food while also saving the world. Wouldn't it be in the Council's interest as well to at least pay her bills? Angel made the right choice in taking over W&H for monetary reasons. Also, just want to say how awesome the end of Angel turned out. I thought season 5 was pretty uneven, starting weak and getting stronger as time went by. Angel and gang engaging in a surprise night of assassinations is just so bad rear end for a TV show.
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Dec 9, 2014 03:12
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My biggest problem with the "Buffy has to get a fast food job" plot was the fact that Willow and Tara lived in her house rent-free and didn't get jobs, even though they only had college (on rare occasions) to worry about. At least Xander and Anya had their own place and supported themselves.
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Dec 9, 2014 03:20
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ShakeZula posted:My biggest problem with the "Buffy has to get a fast food job" plot was the fact that Willow and Tara lived in her house rent-free and didn't get jobs, even though they only had college (on rare occasions) to worry about. At least Xander and Anya had their own place and supported themselves. And apparently Giles was ok loving off back to England leaving Dawn with these two idiots and no money or whatever after Buffy died
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Dec 9, 2014 03:25
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ShakeZula posted:My biggest problem with the "Buffy has to get a fast food job" plot was the fact that Willow and Tara lived in her house rent-free and didn't get jobs, even though they only had college (on rare occasions) to worry about. At least Xander and Anya had their own place and supported themselves. Buffy hit a pretty big roadblock when the characters left highschool and it never really got passed it. The entire show had outgrown Sunnydale by season four and would have worked a lot better with them actually traveling Angel handled that a lot better, by basically doing the same, making saving the world actually their job. That allows for a lot more various in plot setups, since people actively seek them out with their supernatural problems, instead of every weird thing happening to the same five people and their neighbors.
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Dec 9, 2014 03:41
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I also didn't really get what it was the Council did. I first had the impression that they were an organization dedicated to the Slayer, which made it incredibly bizarre that they had such rare and random contact with, you know, the Slayer. Then in Angel and in later seasons of Buffy it seemed like they were just a worldwide group of demon slayers (based on what Wes said mainly). But what do they do on a daily basis? Research Hellmouths and demons I guess? And what did the rest of the world do before the Scoobies activated the potential Slayers? Were they just demon chow?
Captain Mog fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Dec 9, 2014 |
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Dec 9, 2014 03:51
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Symbolism of absentee father figures, mostly.
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Dec 9, 2014 03:54
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