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Guavanaut posted:I can't read that any other way than "the benefits of migrants working in the country allowed my house to be built during what was otherwise a period of otherwise below necessary housebuilding." A giro made out in Euros with a hammer. In 1918, war were ending. For Western Europe. Briefly.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:26
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The Tories are cool coz I saved a few grand on stamp. Ftw.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:29
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Guavanaut posted:I can't read that any other way than "the benefits of migrants working in the country allowed my house to be built during what was otherwise a period of otherwise below necessary housebuilding." Allegedly, a Romani migrant was claiming benefits in England and using the cash to pay labourers in Romania to build him a house and had plenty left over  . And was quoted on endless spiels about how the English are stupid for having this system and people can live like kings on the income etc (seemed more like what a racist thinks "scheming foreigners" sound like, if they had no actual exposure to real migrants). I did only read the front page, though.
Spooky Hyena fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 20:29
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Brown Moses posted:I had to explain LF as well. Good god 
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Dec 8, 2014 20:34
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Spooky Hyena posted:Allegedly, a Romani migrant was claiming benefits in England and using the cash to pay labourers in Romania to build him a house and had plenty left over Worse, he was a 'Roma gypsy'. From Romania. I also did not read the rest of the story, but I assume it was equally spurious bollocks.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:08
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Was going to post this in the Scotpol thread, but I had questions more relevant to England anyway so I'll just do it here. Saturday's BBC The Papers show, when Salmond's plans to run for MP come up. What Stanley says isn't really an uncommon thing from English people in regards to Scotland, both during and after the referendum campaign. There is a lot of complaints that somehow England is a victim of Scottish bigotry (happens more often the other way round, but that's another mattter entirely), but there's never really any concrete evidence. It's always either something happening to friends of friends or "coded", is this just a propagandised thing south of the border or is there anything to it? Secondly, the argument that the SNP continuing to exist or pro-independence people not being won over to the unionist case is "undemocratic". I don't even know where to start with that, other than saying that squashing minority opinions because they don't suit the status quo isn't entirely a pro-democratic stance and I'm not sure why it'd be seen as such. I don't know, it all seems very English and the same attitude doesn't seem to come from Ireland or America or Europe or whatever. Not sure why. Kegluneq posted:Worse, he was a 'Roma gypsy'. From Romania. I also did not read the rest of the story, but I assume it was equally spurious bollocks. Roma's a subgroup of Romani, isn't it? Not sure if I'm mixing up terms.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:09
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Brown Moses posted:It's not that, just it was interesting to hear the complexity of the situation for them. One example I was given was a guy in the UK who has been entrapping paedophiles on their webcams by posing as a young girl on social media. He then shares the info online, and now the police have to decide what to do. If they arrest the men then their condoning his activity, which would possibly lead to him doing it more of it and encouraging others to do the same, and if they ignore then they could end up being criticised for that, especially it one of them offends in the future. Or what happens when people like myself pass our investigative work to the police? At what point is that seen as acting as investigators for the police, bypassing the restrictions they face? Its reasoning like this that lead to the phonetapping of celebrities and the downfall of national newspapers.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:11
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Spooky Hyena posted:Roma's a subgroup of Romani, isn't it? Not sure if I'm mixing up terms.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:19
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Spooky Hyena posted:Roma's a subgroup of Romani, isn't it? Not sure if I'm mixing up terms. Edit: Apparently the guy is actually Romani, although neither the Mail nor the Express make clear what the distinction is. LOL at his '£60k mansion' though - maybe we should be housing the poors over there if we won't build here? Kegluneq fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 21:19
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But he's Roma... from Romania! The article doesn't seem to actually be conflating the two in this case. Might be a case of a stopped clock blah blah, but ironically you're being a bit knee jerk yourself here. e:I see your edit!
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Dec 8, 2014 21:29
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Spooky Hyena posted:What Stanley says isn't really an uncommon thing from English people in regards to Scotland, both during and after the referendum campaign. The tag line is "the man who won't go away" and that's exactly what I thought when I heard he was standing. I'm surprised that you hadn't realised what a devisive figure he's been south of the border. quote:It's always either something happening to friends of friends or "coded", is this just a propagandised thing south of the border or is there anything to it? This came up in the one of the other threads. I think the consensus was that it exists (and I have first hand experience of it) but that bigotry went on in every country and there was nothing intrinsically Scottish or English about it. quote:I don't know, it all seems very English and the same attitude doesn't seem to come from Ireland or America or Europe or whatever. Not sure why. It's because his entire reason for being is to break our country up. I can guarantee you if someone suggested making the West Coast of the US independent, you would encounter similar sentiments from the Americans. It's easy for them to be supportive about Scottish independence because (i) they think the country is literally Braveheart and (ii) they have no skin in the game. Completely unrelated, but it was so interesting I just had to share - this Panorama program was filmed in the 50s just before apartheid became inshrined in law. It's nothing but face to face interviews with contemporary South Africans and it's both fascinating and sobering to hear their thoughts, hopes and expectations of the coming changes.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:29
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Prince John posted:The tag line is "the man who won't go away" and that's exactly what I thought when I heard he was standing. I'm surprised that you hadn't realised what a devisive figure he's been south of the border. Oh no, I get that Salmond himself is a divisive figure - he's hardly held to universal acclaim in Scotland either. But he was described as a "hateful figure" without anything to back it up, and it was just... held to be self-evident? It's not something that I haven't seen before, but of all the criticisms you can make of him I don't think "racist toward the English" is a very valid one until there's proof. It's not even something that's limited to Salmond - the whole of the SNP and everyone that voted for independence is painted as part of some anti-English crusade by a lot of English media (especially the far right). Prince John posted:This came up in the one of the other threads. I think the consensus was that it exists (and I have first hand experience of it) but that bigotry went on in every country and there was nothing intrinsically Scottish or English about it. That's... really kind of wishy-washy and the consensus was Pissflaps saying that anti-Westminster is code for anti-English which isn't really a factual examination. I mean, there could be a sentiment lurking somewhere but it's never anything that can be proven, it's just stories like yours and no offence but an anecdote from a forum isn't verifiable or indicative of a wider trend. And it does seem to be used as an argument to justify jock-bashing among a certain type of person when "everyone does it" comes up. And yeah I guess America is a little irrelevant, I was just naming a few countries off the top of my head where I've seen Scottish Independence debated. It is true that none of them have the same attitude, though - even other ones in the UK don't seem to be as eager to paint the separatists as villains, which is surprising in the case of NI at least. One more thing I forgot to mention, there was a very "us v them" thing going on from the guests in the video I linked, where they distanced themselves from Scotland and made a big deal about England being a seperate country - and then they turn around and say that Salmond hates England because he wants to distance it from Scotland. Not sure how that's explained, English exceptionalism/supremacy or victor's justice? Spooky Hyena fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 21:43
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Prince John posted:It's because his entire reason for being is to break our country up. I can guarantee you if someone suggested making the West Coast of the US independent, you would encounter similar sentiments from the Americans. It's easy for them to be supportive about Scottish independence because (i) they think the country is literally Braveheart and (ii) they have no skin in the game.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:45
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Kegluneq posted:Worse, he was a 'Roma gypsy'. From Romania. I also did not read the rest of the story, but I assume it was equally spurious bollocks. Don't need to read the article to know the claims aren't true. You couldn't make anywhere near enough money to do that without committing massive fraud. Maybe he did, I'm not going to read it, but 'man commits fraud' isn't really a story.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:52
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Imagine a world where people aren't allowed to make up ridiculous statements designed to be read by millions with the purpose of inciting racial tension to sell newspapers corrrrr
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Dec 8, 2014 21:55
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Spangly A posted:Imagine a world where people aren't allowed to make up ridiculous statements designed to be read by millions with the purpose of inciting racial tension to sell newspapers Yes but also imagine a world without the purity of nude socialism.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:56
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Spooky Hyena posted:It's not something that I haven't seen before, but of all the criticisms you can make of him I don't think "racist toward the English" is a very valid one until there's proof. It's not even something that's limited to Salmond - the whole of the SNP and everyone that voted for independence is painted as part of some anti-English crusade by a lot of English media (especially the far right). I really loathe the guy, but I don't think I'd describe him as racist, so I can see where you're coming from. I think you're looking at the other side of the same coin to the media portrayal though. I gather that you see Scottish independence as the seizing of destiny etc. and thus in a purely positive light. The flip side is that independence is an explicit rejection of your Union partners and it can feel like an anti-English crusade sometimes. There were plenty of times when the political message was basically "We can only be great by leaving the English!", as if the average Englishman was, at best, an inadvertent burden, and at worst, actively plotting to hold the glorious Scots back. Having a load of Scottish friends, I don't hold those views, but I can see why sections of the population do - especially when you add in some of the other media portrayals during the referendum (e.g. the 'ungrateful Scot' trope). Bottom line - the referendum was really loving divisive, which is why I wish the SNP would accept the result and move on (at least for a decent number of years) and why I wish Alec Salmond would just get the hell off the public stage now he's resigned.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:03
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Spangly A posted:Imagine a world where people aren't allowed to make up ridiculous statements designed to be read by millions with the purpose of inciting racial tension to sell newspapers I think the most amusing ting is how desperate the papers are to sell this as a massive story. It's one guy (who is part employed anyway) sending a relatively small amount of money back home, where it goes much further than it does here. Remember when there were supposed to be millions of Romanians doing this?
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Dec 8, 2014 22:08
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Spooky Hyena posted:Was going to post this in the Scotpol thread, but I had questions more relevant to England anyway so I'll just do it here. Saturday's BBC The Papers show, when Salmond's plans to run for MP come up. He cared not for what the English thought when it was expected that the SNP would win and he cares not what they think as he goes forth into the UK parliament. And when you consider that his aim is to split the union you surely understand that most people outside of Scotland don't like him. I mean i'm assuming here. I'm assuming that you know that everyone outside of Scotland likes the union and wants to be one big country. Add to this the fact most people are not into politics so they don't actually know why Scotland wants independence. That's a huge factor. English people do not see themselves as the bad guys persecuting Scotland. So they don't inherently understand why Scotland wants out. To them Salmond is essentially a villain. A James bond style villain with plans to destroy the UK. It really doesn't go beyond that. Nor has the SNP shown any interest in enlightening people. Either they don't care or figure there is no way to get the message out without corruption. I certainly agree that the BBC are not to be trusted. Also that guy writes for the Telegraph and is actively responsible for putting ideas in peoples heads. Which is why it isn't uncommon that you hear dear Stanley's thoughts from other English people. Also the guy is obviously a piece of poo poo. It's basically instinctive. You know it, I know it. Guy is a loving idiot and didn't get his job because he worked hard or showed political talent. For the record I think Salmond is one of the more intelligent politicians and Scotland are right to be proud of him. I just wish he had more heroic aims than nationalism. I think he's aiming too low because all he cares about is Scotland. It's a shame and a waste of talent that the left dearly needs. Spooky Hyena posted:but there's never really any concrete evidence. It's always either something happening to friends of friends or "coded", is this just a propagandised thing south of the border or is there anything to it? Put two groups of "lads" in a pub. one group Scottish, one group English. Let them get a bit drunk and see what happens. Now either they're throwing abuse at each other or having sex. This is the situation of the Entire country. Science. Spooky Hyena posted:Secondly, the argument that the SNP continuing to exist or pro-independence people not being won over to the unionist case is "undemocratic". I don't even know where to start with that, other than saying that squashing minority opinions because they don't suit the status quo isn't entirely a pro-democratic stance and I'm not sure why it'd be seen as such. I fully agree. The establishment/Nationalistic English sentiment that 45% is some how an ignorable figure and that there is no crisis is going to come back and haunt them. I expect things to get progressibly nasty if the Tories get back in or there are further gains by UKIP. I think it likely that if the referendum was done today it might get over 50%. Them's the breaks. Westminster played the game just well enough. Spooky Hyena posted:I don't know, it all seems very English and the same attitude doesn't seem to come from Ireland or America or Europe or whatever. Not sure why. Eh? The last time someone tried to break America up they had a civil war. Remember that? Federal government came down hard on that one. Democracy be damned. Interestingly enough it was the lesser evil. If you mean why do English people seem to take the actions of the SNP as personal attacks on their Englishness well... that would require an essay on the topic of cultural respect. The differences in cultures and the contradictions inherent in denouncing imperialism but admiring martial histories. Celts in general are perceived to be precious of their culture and interestingly enough, the martial aspects of it. The tall, musclebound Scottish highlander is a respected figure whether it's killing English soldiers or fighting for British armies at Waterloo. The pride in Scottish martial culture remains today in the Scottish regiments. Now, try being proud of your martial history as an Englishman. Aha. Yes. War is bad again. Yes every war is different and some could be said to be more just than others but the point is that globally speaking it's drat hard to show yourself being even happy to be English. Like it's expected that if you're English you'll break the ice by first berating yourself and your country. Mean while Scotland can't stfu about how great it is and how it's being held back by the baddies. The truth of the matter is irrelevant. People are frustrated. People turn to the right who are only too happy to take pride in the country (deserved or not) and the right is no friend of Scotland. Personally I think relations should have had to reach a much lower level to trigger a referendum. This would have had the effect of ensuring Scotland did get independence and making English people feel less like they got stitched up. Instead the SNP were given a referendum almost as if calling a bluff. And here we are.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:09
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The best way to lower people's respect of Scottish martialism is to remind them that Churchill called the Gordon Highlanders the "finest regiment in the world".
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Dec 8, 2014 22:19
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Regarde Aduck posted:I'm assuming that you know that everyone outside of Scotland likes the union and wants to be one big country. quote:Put two groups of "lads" in a pub. one group Scottish, one group English. Let them get a bit drunk and see what happens. Now either they're throwing abuse at each other or having sex. This is the situation of the Entire country. Science. As opposed to Scottish and Irish groups, where, to judge by my experience of weddings with our Irish wing, apparently they front up to each other about their respective masculinity and then end up getting happily pissed together.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:22
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Ddraig posted:I often wonder about the mentality of someone who does a job like that. Do they take it all the heinous poo poo they see to heart, or do they have to become desensitised merely to cope? I do a lot (in fact there's a minor deluge right now) of child abuse/child porn/paedophile cases at work. My top tip when given a load of horrible photos to sort into bundles is to take off my glasses, thus rendering the pictures blurry and unmemorable. That said there isn't really a way to escape that it's a loving miserable subject to work on. I just try not to think about it too much.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:39
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Prince John posted:I really loathe the guy, but I don't think I'd describe him as racist, so I can see where you're coming from. Got to leave right now, so I'll be quick, but would the attitudes boil down to a conflation of Englishness as an ethnicity and the English state? It seems like it makes sense on a lot of levels, especially the English right bearing the brunt of the offence when by most accounts they'd benefit from Scottish succession if anything. If that is the case, it's... not going to be improved by anything short of homogeneity between demographics in Scotland and England which leaves the relationship in a difficult spot. It is, after all, difficult to change the state without criticising it - especially in a democratic system.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:42
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Spooky Hyena posted:Got to leave right now, so I'll be quick, but would the attitudes boil down to a conflation of Englishness as an ethnicity and the English state? It seems like it makes sense on a lot of levels, especially the English right bearing the brunt of the offence when by most accounts they'd benefit from Scottish succession if anything. Perhaps - I think Regarde's comments earlier about cultural respect are very pertinent. I also think the feelings should be seen against a backdrop of weak English cultural identity and alienation - there's a significant part of the country that feel somewhat overtaken by Modern Britain. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a strong correlation between anti-Independence and UKIP voters, for instance. If you already feel that your Englishness is under siege from factors that you're not able to identify, a boogeyman like the SNP makes a very easy target. Maybe it's not too far fetched to suggest that seeing the Scots with such a strong cultural identity can breed feelings of resentment. quote:especially the English right bearing the brunt of the offence when by most accounts they'd benefit from Scottish succession if anything. I actually thought the right (such as it is) was arguing based on its principles - I think you saw politicians who genuinely believed that the UK was better as a whole, arguing for that goal over their narrower political interests which, as you suggest, might have favoured a separation. quote:If that is the case, it's... not going to be improved by anything short of homogeneity between demographics in Scotland and England which leaves the relationship in a difficult spot. It is, after all, difficult to change the state without criticising it - especially in a democratic system. That does bring us to the last reason for lingering resentment - that nobody else got a vote on what would have been a momentous schism in our society and economy. As the referendum drew nearer and it seemed as if there might be a victory, I heard this view expressed more and more, almost in tones of shocked disbelief. "How could we find ourselves in this position?" I honestly believe that the economic and political costs of the split would have been huge and were vastly understated by the Yes campaign and I don't think I would be the only person to hold that view. The fact that (to put it crudely) the Yes campaign basically didn't care about the consequences south of the border did little to endear them. It also felt a little as if there was genuine deception - the Scottish people were having the wool pulled over their eyes, the SNP want independence at all costs - but by the time everyone finds out what a mistake it was, it will be too late. (I realise this is a paternalistic argument, sorry!) As for improving the situation in future, I support whatever reforms are needed to reach a situation where all of the constituent members of the UK are happy, even if that means a Federal UK. I say that even as someone who is very conservative about the constitution, because I really do feel that strongly about not splitting our country up. I would like to un-gently caress the Welsh and the North of England while we go about this process of reform and I'm also concerned that the current path is one that benefits the Scots to the detriment of more deprived areas (e.g. preservation of current Barnett formula) which is just storing up trouble for the future. Prince John fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 23:32
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tooterfish posted:It's definitely for the best if the mentally ill top themselves, think of the money saved! the fat guy who lived with the ferrits had also appeared in videos that showed him raping young boys. he was caught again and killed himself before even going to trial. e/ i am not one for the death penalty or suicide but if active pedophiles want to kill themselves then that;s okay by me
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Dec 9, 2014 00:00
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JFairfax posted:the fat guy who lived with the ferrits had also appeared in videos that showed him raping young boys. I dunno. It's not exactly the biggest priority in the world, but it's not exactly the kind of thing that should be condoned or approved of.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:10
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You're not for the death penalty, but you are okay with the anticipated future of confirmed paedophiles being severe enough that to many of them death seems preferable in comparison. Maybe I'm being cynical and you meant to say you just don't care, but it really reads like the same kind of nod/wink that perpetuates rape in the US prison system as a popularly endorsed part of punishment.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:18
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Renaissance Robot posted:You're not for the death penalty, but you are okay with the anticipated future of confirmed paedophiles being severe enough that to many of them death seems preferable in comparison. I don't think it reads like that at all. You're attributing your own bias to someone elses words when there is none.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:51
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JFairfax posted:Pedos often kill themselves. Once they're caught that is. If we're thinking about the same documentary (it was a three-parter) the lion's share of arrests featured wre from Operation Ore, and more than one of the men who went on to commit suicide was exonerated. Didn't matter, the local Plod had already let all his neighbours know exactly what he'd been arrested for. Imagine what would happen to your life if tomorrow morning the old bill kicked your door in, seized everything more complex than an electric toothbrush in your house, and told all your neighbours/family/boss you'd been arrested for downloading child pornography. Your life would pretty much be over, one way or another, and I'd imagine suicide would start looking pretty loving attractive.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:02
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I assume people will have seen this on social media. http://audioboom.com/boos/2713731-such-a-heartbreaking-call-the-man-too-poor-to-eat Man calls in to a radio show to share his story of being laid off and breaks down crying about not having anything to eat, being turned away from food banks, having to rake through supermarket bins, and how buying batteries for his small radio is an extravagance. Don't listen to this if you're having a bad day.
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Dec 9, 2014 02:12
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Coohoolin posted:I assume people will have seen this on social media. Cheery bedtime listening. gently caress the Tories right up their loving arseholes fake edit: I'll just put this right here, just to remind us all of how well everything's going?  real edit: gently caress, poor guy.
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Dec 9, 2014 05:23
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Renaissance Robot posted:You're not for the death penalty, but you are okay with the anticipated future of confirmed paedophiles being severe enough that to many of them death seems preferable in comparison. Hahaha no.
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Dec 9, 2014 12:39
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I don't think the ferret paedo deserved to die, but he was such a wretched, pitiful trainwreck, my reaction was 'yeah, you weren't going to turn that life around'. I hope his ferrets were re-homed with someone who would clean them out occasionally.
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Dec 9, 2014 12:59
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I would imagine the chief motivation for suicide would be shame and depression rather than apprehension about prison violence. Padeophiles tend to be kept away from the general population for that reason.
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Dec 9, 2014 13:10
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Didn't one of the people accused by Operation Ore get disowned by their family before killing themselves (and later being exonerated)? Things like that can't help.
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Dec 9, 2014 13:12
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Guavanaut posted:Didn't one of the people accused by Operation Ore get disowned by their family before killing themselves (and later being exonerated)? Pretty shocking  Anonymity until conviction!In other news, it's a pretty good time to be a bricklayer quote:Building companies in London have hired Portuguese bricklayers on £1,000-a-week wages because of a shortage of skilled Britons, a recruitment firm has said. The finding was revealed by Manpower, whose research is said to have confirmed industry fears of a lack of suitably-trained workers. Manpower managing director Mark Cahill said he was told the normal £500-a-week pay for bricklayers was being doubled. We've really got to find a better way of matching unemployment with desired skills. Is there any way to do it other than governments guessing at what skills will be in demand a few years down the line and funding training programs accordingly? Does the government get involved in targeted skills development at all?
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Dec 9, 2014 13:28
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From my experience of being unemployed, you basically turn up at the job center, give a list of what you've done to look for a job, they look over it disinterestedly and send you on your way. You will eventually be put on the work programme where you will be forced to work retail (no other placements are available) and after that you will be periodically called in to provide some more unskilled work somewhere else. So in short: Hahaha, no.
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Dec 9, 2014 13:44
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Well we could have a system of free movement allowing people to work where they like to address the problem of a regional skills mismatch combined with strong welfare to prevent failing living standards from large movements in the working population but noooo, that's impossible because its hard for businesses to make profits if that were to happen.
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Dec 9, 2014 13:45
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namesake posted:Well we could have a system of free movement allowing people to work where they like to address the problem of a regional skills mismatch combined with strong welfare to prevent failing living standards from large movements in the working population but noooo, that's impossible because its hard for businesses to make profits if that were to happen. This would be nightmarishly expensive and an absolutely enormous workload to administer. In an ideal world...
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Dec 9, 2014 13:54
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Prince John posted:Pretty shocking Terms like "lack of skilled workers" is usually code for "we want cheap immigrants who will work all hours for poo poo pay".
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Dec 9, 2014 13:58
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