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Human pretenders should use the trope of "humans are very average, but they are good at being flexible and learning" and makes them gain new magic path super cheap. In other words to remark the potential of rainbow pretender design.
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Dec 9, 2014 23:12
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Turin Turambar posted:Human pretenders should use the trope of "humans are very average, but they are good at being flexible and learning" and makes them gain new magic path super cheap. In other words to remark the potential of rainbow pretender design. ya but then look at poo poo like , a titan with three paths already who flies and flies in storms and has awe built in and it costs 50 points or something and has dom 3 and humans are not poo poo compared to that
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Dec 10, 2014 00:47
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My vote would be for humans mage pretenders to have ridiculously cheap magic paths and some minor survivability buffs but in return their paths generate no bless effects. Personally I don't have much love for the argument about humans being "average" mages who can't have the same magic power as a once-banished titan or a talking tree. Obviously fantasy has plenty examples of humans getting into magic-fights with godlike beings, and in mythology/history I'm willing to bet the few humans who actually said "yep I'm literally god" also pretended to godlike powers as part of their mythos.
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Dec 10, 2014 01:02
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I'd like the virtue to be a good pretender. I love the chassis but it's just a poo poo unit.
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Dec 10, 2014 01:05
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TheresNoThyme posted:My vote would be for humans mage pretenders to have ridiculously cheap magic paths and some minor survivability buffs but in return their paths generate no bless effects. Eh, taking bless effects away isn't a good idea. The human pretenders are already weaker, so making them stronger in one way and nerfing them in another just transforms them into ridiculous one-trick ponies. Better suggestion: Make their magic paths actually more expensive (so bless effects are harder to get), but give them strong boosts to their magic paths. This way, you can still have a bless on your mage if you really want to force it, but if you just want a strong mage, you can stop a few levels lower and just enjoy your a +3 or +4 boost to some paths/elemental magic/sorcery/whatever the flavour is.
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Dec 10, 2014 01:15
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Libluini posted:Eh, taking bless effects away isn't a good idea. The human pretenders are already weaker, so making them stronger in one way and nerfing them in another just transforms them into ridiculous one-trick ponies. Good pretender design usually is a one-trick pony though? My thinking is also that there are plenty of low tier nations who have garbage sacreds and would benefit from pretender design actually synergizing with that fact. If you think about it from a nation-by-nation perspective, the nations with poor sacreds tend to be human nations like Arco, Man, Marverni, Pythium etc. who I could definitely see being led by a human with delusions of grandeur. Some of them would still miss the mage blesses, but the tradeoff in mage power could be worth it with your pretender showing up and casting the right scaling spells. The path-boosting idea is fine and good but whenever it pops up in balance mods I usually see it adding +1 or +2 to a single path and not really enabling super mages who actually show up to fights. My gut feeling is that you need much higher paths and some kind of survivability buff to make human mages worth the risk/reward. edit: This is all just theorycraft though and obviously not something we'll ever get in dom4. Adjusting the pretender costs is at least better than nothing TheresNoThyme fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 01:30
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Libluini posted:Eh, taking bless effects away isn't a good idea. The human pretenders are already weaker, so making them stronger in one way and nerfing them in another just transforms them into ridiculous one-trick ponies. I like this idea. The more extraordinary the god, the more likely they are to have high domscore, abilities, high specific paths, etc. So like a titan with built-in awe, two high paths but high new-path-cost, and fear. The more mundane the god, the more likely they are to be less godly-power-like (blesses, domscore), more diverse and have utility benefits. So a human archmage with one in ~four paths and two in a specialty, or a small pathboost, or inspiring researcher, or alchemy bonuses, or glamour, or any of those silly little things humans are wont to do in their quest to pretend like they're gods.
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Dec 10, 2014 03:10
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 Spooky.
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Dec 10, 2014 04:37
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ChickenWing posted:I like this idea. Have a banker who generates gold every turn in his quest to buy godhood and create a world where he can be safe from ever having to acknowledge the existence of the poors.
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Dec 10, 2014 04:45
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Reduce the cost of Empowering for Human pretenders! 
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Dec 10, 2014 06:31
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Human chassis that adds 5PD per turn up to 100 
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Dec 10, 2014 09:23
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Kitfox88 posted:Human chassis that adds 5PD per turn up to 100 Can't be done, the +pd stat only goes to 19 max. The closest you could do is make a bunch of +pd events tied to the chassis.
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Dec 10, 2014 09:34
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illwinter literally making GBS threads all over my dreams as usual
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Dec 10, 2014 09:41
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TheresNoThyme posted:Good pretender design usually is a one-trick pony though? If that pretender is finished and ready to go, yes. But I think it's bad design to give you a pretender chassis who already starts as a one-trick pony and gives you no choice about what kind of one-trick pony you want. Never having a bless at all just closes off all possible bless strategies right then and there. It makes for some boring and predictable pretender choices.
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Dec 10, 2014 13:02
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Well at the moment the go-to boring, predictable pick is N9 Irminsul or bust. I still think Rainbows having Dom 5 and in most other ways being unchanged is the way forward, but that's my take on the isuse.
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Dec 10, 2014 15:26
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Well it often seems to boil down to Awake Dragon Dormant Titan Imprisoned Immobile
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Dec 10, 2014 16:17
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Libluini posted:If that pretender is finished and ready to go, yes. But I think it's bad design to give you a pretender chassis who already starts as a one-trick pony and gives you no choice about what kind of one-trick pony you want. Never having a bless at all just closes off all possible bless strategies right then and there. Human pretenders are currently zero-trick ponies so give them any niche at all would be nice.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:41
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Neruz posted:Can't be done, the +pd stat only goes to 19 max. The closest you could do is make a bunch of +pd events tied to the chassis. Doing that is fairly easy though, although I did manage to find a bug with shapechange even so. kitfox.dm
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Dec 10, 2014 16:53
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Flame112 posted:Human pretenders are currently zero-trick ponies so give them any niche at all would be nice. I love rainbow pretenders, and largely use them to find every magic site ever. I also like it if they come with Sneak. Double bonus if I can afford a durable flying chassis like the Allfather, but I'd use a sneaking human if need be. Is this a terrible idea?
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Dec 10, 2014 19:10
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It's cool if that's what you're into. A lot of people will just pick THE BEST THING, though, which is typically an N2+ immobile of some kind to stick their big globals on and get N9 for their sacreds (effective but dull).
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Dec 10, 2014 19:27
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So what killed off the W9 dragon meta?
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Dec 10, 2014 19:31
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goatface posted:So what killed off the W9 dragon meta? Nothing. It still exists if you pick a nation that benefits from it.
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Dec 10, 2014 19:52
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EA Tien and Vanheim still do great with it.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:02
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jBrereton posted:Well at the moment the go-to boring, predictable pick is N9 Irminsul or bust. Irm da bes. Except Rotekian posted:Doing that is fairly easy though, although I did manage to find a bug with shapechange even so.   Rotekian da bes.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:58
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amuayse posted:EA Tien and Vanheim still do great with it. lol if you think EA TC needs a dragon. W9, Scales and low other paths for bootstrapping or 
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Dec 10, 2014 22:18
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Oh yeah I forgot that eastern dragons are terribad
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Dec 10, 2014 23:07
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Much in the same way that female units in Dominions must be weaker to fully conform to how women are naturally inferior to males in the real world, eastern dragons must remain inferior to their glorious western aryan counterparts. Realism is very important to this game.
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Dec 10, 2014 23:27
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amuayse posted:Oh yeah I forgot that eastern dragons are terribad "Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it" - Bruce Lee, dom1 pretender chassis
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Dec 10, 2014 23:35
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Kitfox88 posted:Irm da bes. Except Huh. Wouldn't the shape change make Kitfox88 less squishy too?
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Dec 11, 2014 00:25
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I think what really kills human pretenders is the exponential growth of costs. As much as it might not be thematic, it might help to increase their starting domscore so that they don't have to pay through the nose to get a decent dominion. Path boosts would also help, so that they could at least be competent casters without requiring huge investments of points. Remember that even with massive magic paths and a good dominion, you're still just getting a lovely human as a pretender. They're not durable, they can't do much other than cast, and they're incredibly risky to deploy into combat because of how squishy they are. It'd be really nice if there were a way to have human pretenders suffer less from exponential growth of path costs (since adding a flat +x magic boost potentially makes taking one point in each magic discipline far too attractive), but I suspect that that's hardcoded to a level that even Illwinter would have trouble changing. I wonder if it would be possible for Illwinter to add in a scaling magic path boost, so something like +1 for 1-2 in a path, +2 for 3-4 in a path, etc.
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Dec 11, 2014 09:17
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Waldmeister hasn't started yet, so I might still have time to brainstorm my Fomoria pretender design. Bear with me as I think through this. I'm currently going with a dormant n9 e4 titan, because I like the idea of the n9 bless (probably the only one that benefits unmarked, barghests, morrigans and Fomorian kings) and all your thunderstriking druids are sacred so they like the reinvigoration. Spamming fir bolg druids with magic scales seems like a nice way to get some early research going for all those targets (evo5 thunderspam, ench5 skelespam, conj6 morrigans). The nation has a lot of variety and doesn't seem to really need help from pretender crosspaths, so even though n9 is boring it probably works just fine and opens up a lot of potential for mixed armies and high nature globals like Gift of Health or Enchanted Forests or whatever. But let's say I did want a dormant titan with some good crosspaths. A bless doesn't seem strictly necessary, since Unmarked are hardly vital to expansion when you already have fir bolgs and nemedians, and morrigans are probably fine without it (though the power of the solo Fomorian King is probably diminished without n9). What does Fomoria need that it can't already get? Some Astral/Earth access might be nice because it's always cool to forge slave matrices and crystal hearts and all that poo poo. Is going really high Death worth it for getting a Tartarian factory? You're already going high up to Conj8 for battle morrigans so it seems prudent to make that your 9 path, but I've never used Tartarians so I don't know if they necessarily give you anything that Fomorian Kings don't. Maybe a dormant nature/death god who can cast Gift of Health for his Tartarians easily? I've played a few games by now but not really made it to any serious lategame state in any of them, so it's hard to predict what I'll be missing when I get there as Fomoria. Could use a bit of help. e: Fomoria is also apparently "one of the best skelespam nations in EA" but their only real reliable HoS caster seems to be the cap-only d2 Nemedian Sorceress. That doesn't seem like a good setup for a skeleton nation. Certainly doesn't seem like they have better Death access than C'tis or Machaka. Am I missing something? Boing fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 16:05
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N9 is really, really good for Fomoria, tragically. More health means your priest-mages are a ton safer, simple as that. Druids are already pretty sturdy even without more health and regen, but it all helps!. Lone Fomorian Kings for anything other than underwater expansion against bad triton indies sounds dubious to me just because Lone Anything is asking to be hit with any of the variety of spells that gently caress up lone targets and stop them doing cool things, but yeah it'd help with that. Barghests are kind of poo poo, I wouldn't use them as Fomoria (I use them a bit as Man if I end up with D mages, because Man otherwise doesn't have bulky meat shields like them to reduce AN/big AP evo hits on more expensive/important stuff), but Unmarked are really good sacreds, and they're even better mixed with Fir Bolg spearmen to make them way way better in melee combat. Tarts provide you with all kinds of mid-high magic potential, albeit in a completely unpredictable way, but you can get base D4 (and from there DX, pretty much) on your capital mages with some good luck/empowerment using your pretty good Death income, so it's not really necessary to build a pretender around it. Fomoria can Do Skelespam with its cap mages and some druids - although it is kind of light skelespam alongside their excellent living nationals and evocation, it's very steady, and a fucker to deal with if you Storm/Rain/Darkness/Wailing Winds up, all of which is easy for you, because indie priests and a lot of national ones are kind of wimpy when it comes to morale, and also miss everything even with Banishment once you ruin their prec scores.
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Dec 11, 2014 17:36
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A lot of minor tweaks and stuff, but complete enough such that I am willing to call this version 1.0. Probably no more major features to be added (outside of the separate events mod). Notably, most noble positions have been removed and replaced with other units, in preparation for noble-related events in the events mod, and all three nations now have heroes. Here's the new version. I will probably continue to make balance tweaks based on feedback and fix any bugs that are discovered. Magil Zeal posted:Notable is that as of this update, all three eras are included. I'm still welcome to hear balance feedback, particularly on the EA/LA nations. LA is a very heavy blood nation and I'm not sure if I got that right. The summons are pretty beastly though, I've been adjusting them a lot, they used to be a lot more powerful. The nations in general may be powerful, as is standard for mod nations, but my goal is to create something that people can say "well, at least it's not as strong as Mictlan."
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Dec 12, 2014 09:29
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Maybe take some stuff from the crazier projects? http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91093.0 Create psychologically devastated yet completely fearless warrior from years of solitary confinement and fighting http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106529.0 Guy make a giant sacricial steel chalice, then uses the blood from goblins to make unholy obsidian. Magic obsidian weapons? http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=94140.0 Guy defeats hell and colonizes it using an extremely elaborate obsidian trap. Maybe make some demon obsidian items?
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Dec 12, 2014 16:03
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http://wikiwiki.jp/dominions4/ O_O Found it by chance while googling up a spell name. Japan has a better wiki than us English-speakers.
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Dec 12, 2014 23:28
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Turin Turambar posted:http://wikiwiki.jp/dominions4/ Now let me tell you about the blood slave doujinshis...
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Dec 13, 2014 01:47
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This is a usefull page: http://wikiwiki.jp/dominions4/?Special%20Ability
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Dec 13, 2014 13:30
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RBA-Wintrow posted:This is a usefull page: Jesus ive never seen a bunch of these despite playing since release of dom4.
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Dec 13, 2014 14:34
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RBA-Wintrow posted:This is a usefull page: Holy poo poo that's amazing. Someone should scrape their wiki, shove it through google translate and poop out a wikia page on the other side
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Dec 13, 2014 14:56
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They actually tell you how the charge bonus works! (it's AP/3 damage, unless you're flying, in which case it's size*2)
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Dec 13, 2014 15:07
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