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Hodgepodge posted:I'm saying that Denna was his wife's alternate PC for a few months. Denna was Dave next door who agreed to play with him while his wife was away for business. Dave always was a bit of a strange one... Bucnasti posted:If they haven't have a new mage for someone to train in 200 years, than how did the sister just kill a young one? They have new mages, but they have a lot more novices than mages maybe? If, say, one new mage comes in a year but five new novices, it could easily take a long time before a novice gets to prove herself with a mage. Masonity fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 10:51
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Bucnasti posted:If they haven't have a new mage for someone to train in 200 years, than how did the sister just kill a young one? Maybe their paperwork is so bad the kid died 201 years ago and they just now noticed they still need a report on that? 
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Dec 11, 2014 11:01
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Shota is the ultimate example of a parent with no authority due to over threatening and never following through.
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Dec 11, 2014 11:27
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Spoilers (again): it's because it can take up to hundreds of years to be graduated. The Sisters are not the best teachers. Basically everyone at the Palace is immortal.
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Dec 11, 2014 11:44
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:Spoilers (again): it's because it can take up to hundreds of years to be graduated. The Sisters are not the best teachers. Think of how long it takes to teach one how to use his Han.....solo? 
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Dec 11, 2014 12:48
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quote:“Why not? I hate never knowing. I hate not knowing if the Sister I’m talking to is a Sister of the Light, or one of us, a Sister of the Dark....” So is the Nameless One the name the Sisters of the Dark give the Keeper? And they're discouraged from giving any weight to the rumour/myth of Sisters of the Dark? Did Goodkind discard the logic of this as soon as he wrote it? What a twat: quote:She let her eyes take in Pasha again: soft brown hair that just touched her shoulders, big brown eyes, attractive features, lips of the sort men stared at, proud, upright shoulders, and a sweep of curves that even a novice’s dress failed to conceal.
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Dec 11, 2014 13:57
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Esposito posted:So is the Nameless One the name the Sisters of the Dark give the Keeper? And they're discouraged from giving any weight to the rumour/myth of Sisters of the Dark? Or Pasha is also a Dark Sister and namedropping the Nameless One is their procedure for checking whether someone is also in the evil club? If they know what the gently caress you're talking about, you know they're a Black Sister, if not you just backpedal and go "I dare not even say his title" or someshit.
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Dec 11, 2014 16:06
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Actually, Nameless One is what all the Sisters call the Keeper, because calling the true name of a supernatural power will bring it's attention. It isn't an uncommon magic trope. Naturally, Goodkind gets stupid with it later. I mean, stupid beyond the fact that The Keeper Of The Underworld is a given name, apparently, and not the title and function of the entity.
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Dec 11, 2014 16:41
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Not only are there sisters of the dark, but ALMOST EVERY SISTER WE ARE GOING TO MEET is a sister of the dark. No, I'm not exaggerating, he goes way the gently caress overboard on this thing.
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Dec 11, 2014 17:12
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TheSmilingJackal posted:Actually, Nameless One is what all the Sisters call the Keeper, because calling the true name of a supernatural power will bring it's attention. It isn't an uncommon magic trope. To be fair, Richard explicitly points this out as stupid. 'If he's as powerful as you claim, do you really think pussyfooting around his name is going to prevent him from noticing you?'
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Dec 11, 2014 17:23
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TheCenturion posted:To be fair, Richard explicitly points this out as stupid. 'If he's as powerful as you claim, do you really think pussyfooting around his name is going to prevent him from noticing you?' Yes of course. Richard notices and points out EVERYTHING that is stupid, after all. He also deduces several mathematical and physics concepts simply by experiencing them once. Our Newtonian Philosopher hero, Richard Rahl. And no he is never called Cypher again for the rest of the books. They never even bring it up again, to my knowledge. On the plus side, at least we get to do away with that awful metaphor for good. Yes, we are by now aware that Richard is the Seeker of Truth and will unravel all riddles (with violence and temper tantrums and unreasonable leaps of logic).
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Dec 11, 2014 17:34
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You know, when you think about it, that's kind of a dick move. "Hey, so George Cypher is the man who raised you, cared for you, and who you've always considered your father. And this guy Rahl, he's like, a megalomaniacal murderwizard who literally raped your mom. So I think it's pretty clear which name we're going to be using from now on to remind you of this fact every goddamn time it's brought up."
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Dec 11, 2014 17:53
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I Love You! posted:Not only are there sisters of the dark, but ALMOST EVERY SISTER WE ARE GOING TO MEET is a sister of the dark. No, I'm not exaggerating, he goes way the gently caress overboard on this thing. This could be a hilarious short story in the right hands: every single member of a "followers of light" group is secretly evil, and they don't know that there's not a single unconverted good guy left thanks to their convoluted systems of recognizing one another. None of them have pieced it together yet, so they all keep dancing through the motions of testing and tempting one another over to the "dark side".
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Dec 11, 2014 18:08
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Spoilers Below posted:This could be a hilarious short story in the right hands: every single member of a "followers of light" group is secretly evil, and they don't know that there's not a single unconverted good guy left thanks to their convoluted systems of recognizing one another. None of them have pieced it together yet, so they all keep dancing through the motions of testing and tempting one another over to the "dark side". The man who was Thursday.
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Dec 11, 2014 18:23
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Touché. I love that story. This thread got me thinking about the bloat of fantasy novels last night. DDP noted a couple posts back that he was only about 125 pages in, and given that we're a few more chapters, I'm guess-timating we're at perhaps 200 now? (Perhaps I'm being a bit unfair by comparing the page count of the 2nd novel in SoT to the first novels in other series, rather than an aggregate total, but the reason will soon become apparent) Let's check in where we'd be in other famous fantasy series: Lord of the Rings: By 200 pages into Fellowship, we've met Strider and we're in the council at Rivendell. We've met Tom Bombadill, heard the entire history of the hobbits, gotten the history of the War of the Ring from Gandalf, fought the Barrowwright, become elf friends, fought Nazgûl, and the series is at the point where it really gets cracking and exciting. A fellowship is being formed to carry the Ring to Mt. Doom, and poo poo is getting Real. About 60 pages left before Two Towers. Elric of Melniboné: By 200 pages, the novel is already over, and you're 9 pages into Sailor on the Seas of Fate. I won't spoil it. It's very good. Chronicles of Amber: We're well through Nine Princes in Amber, and into The Guns of Avalon. We've found a war for the multiverse, battled the gods themselves, seen multiple deaths, seen entire armies wiped off the face of the world, and questioned the nature of reality on multiple occasions. More to come, or feel free to add you own!
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Dec 11, 2014 19:00
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But this is book 2, remember. And book 1 sure is as long as fellowship! (I think)
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Dec 11, 2014 19:08
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TheCenturion posted:To be fair, Richard explicitly points this out as stupid. 'If he's as powerful as you claim, do you really think pussyfooting around his name is going to prevent him from noticing you?' I take umbrage with Goodkind/ Richard classifying aspects of magic as 'nonsensical'. It comes across as both incredible pretentious and enormously stupid to say that magic shouldn't work a particular way because real life doesn't work that way. Yes, Goodkind, thank you, thank you for explaining why magic isn't real and wouldn't work. I surely wouldn't have figured it out if you hadn't pointed out to me. I totally would have thought I could use a wand to change rats into tea cup if you hadn't shown me the error of my ways.  Once you have establish magic is a thing in your world and establish rules for that magic, you don't get to go back and say the rules are the stupid part because  . For example, say you establish that a character needs a plastic plant for magic to work. That's silly, yes, but it's magic. You can't go back later and say they don't need to chant magic words, then explain it as: "That's stupid. What did you all use before we had plastic, hmmmm? HA.  "Not to mention there is a big rear end difference between 'evil thing maybe knowing about you' and 'purposely demanding evil thing's attention and possible presence'. True names typically being a part of summoning after all. Now, you could argue that the magic in these books doesn't rely true names for summoning, and that would be a fair point, it isn't established in the books. Goodkind doesn't explain the rules for anything unless it is a set up to explain why that rule is stupid and thus can be ignored.
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Dec 11, 2014 19:27
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silvergoose posted:But this is book 2, remember. And book 1 sure is as long as fellowship! (I think) Book one was ~800 pages, this one is a few shy of 1000.
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Dec 11, 2014 19:52
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silvergoose posted:But this is book 2, remember. And book 1 sure is as long as fellowship! (I think) The copy of Lord of the Rings I'm working from, including Fellowship, Two Towers, Return of the King, all the appendixes and an index, is 1178 pages in total. Fake edit: Lord of the Rings is Book II of the Hobbit! Ha ha!
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Dec 11, 2014 20:08
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Am I the only one who mentally autocorrected "Verne" to "Verin"?
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Dec 11, 2014 20:08
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Nihilarian posted:Am I the only one who mentally autocorrected "Verna" to "Verin"? I have checked myself on this so many times you don't even know. (She is not half as charming as Verin.)
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Dec 11, 2014 20:22
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First, let's meet two wizards-in-training! And, uh. Remember what Shota said about bleeding a wizard of their magic? Let's return to that. Foreshadowing does not last very long in this novel.quote:With a flick of her wrist, she brought her knife to her hand. “Up against the wall. Both of you.” Someone seriously invented a device that will keep a wizard alive so you can bleed him of all his magic. Every goddamn wizard inventor was a complete rear end in a top hat. Also, remember what I said about Sister Black here being a real prick to Pasha? Yeah. This: quote:“After you have finished here, and before you come to me at dawn, there is one more task you will perform this night.” YUP. The entire point of picking this little poo poo out was that apparently he's like a day off of release into the real world again, so he's going to be An Agent of the Keeper. Too bad the Palace of the Prophets is so far from the events of the books- quote:“After you are released, you must be off at once, in the service of your homeland. You do remember your homeland, don’t you? You are going to go to Aydindril, as an advisor to High Prince Fyren. You have things to do there. Important things.” Yep. So basically we're continuing the trend of every wizard is a prick - only the darkfriends get to leave alive thanks to Sister Black and others. Ta-da! That's actually a good scheme, you have to admit.
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Dec 11, 2014 20:26
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Caros posted:Wow, so the boxes are 3/3 for lovely outcomes. Either someone gains control over life and death (lovely), The world is destroyed (very lovely), or the person who used them is killed which lets the devil hang out in the world and soulrape women. Who made these again? And why? This is actually a plot point later. When I forced myself to finish the series in college, I was unreasonably mad about how it comes up later.
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Dec 11, 2014 20:47
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Ego Trip posted:This is actually a plot point later. Makes me glad I didn't finish the series!
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Dec 11, 2014 20:58
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Yep, apparently they don't let ANY of the wizards leave unless they are evil. Seriously the whole point of this novel is that the sisters of the light are basically a billion times weaker than the sisters of the dark so why in the world do the dark sisters even hide their poo poo?
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Dec 11, 2014 21:16
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Because the Black Ajah hid in WoT.
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Dec 11, 2014 21:32
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I Love You! posted:Yep, apparently they don't let ANY of the wizards leave unless they are evil. Yeah I don't get it either. Anyone with subtractive magic can just utterly destroy someone with just additive magic so why the hiding and secrecy? Just take over the drat place.
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Dec 11, 2014 21:34
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Sotar posted:Yeah I don't get it either. Anyone with subtractive magic can just utterly destroy someone with just additive magic so why the hiding and secrecy? Just take over the drat place. And some idiot with a crossbow can take out a wizard. Steel against steel and all that.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:29
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Sotar posted:Yeah I don't get it either. Anyone with subtractive magic can just utterly destroy someone with just additive magic so why the hiding and secrecy? Just take over the drat place. This is one thing WoT actually did really well, even the most destructive magic of balesfire can be countered by a very special weave, like itself just the opposite or something. A force of pure creation to negate the pure destruction. Too bad it takes until the very end for the Aes Sedai to learn of this fact. Why Goodkind thought it was a good idea to have additive magic completely limp against subtractive magic is something which baffles me to this day. It's worse than balesfire, because that stuff could at least be used by both sides.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:41
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Libluini posted:This is one thing WoT actually did really well, even the most destructive magic of balesfire can be countered by a very special weave, like itself just the opposite or something. A force of pure creation to negate the pure destruction. Too bad it takes until the very end for the Aes Sedai to learn of this fact. And yet, later on, Zedd has no problem teaching the refugees from the Palace all about using magic in warfare, including counter-acting the other side's magic.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:43
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TheCenturion posted:And yet, later on, Zedd has no problem teaching the refugees from the Palace all about using magic in warfare, including counter-acting the other side's magic. Well, Zedd is a crafty old bastard. Maybe every other user of additive magic in the world is just really, really lovely at it. (Or Goodkind only remembers the properties of negative magic when it's plot relevant.)
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Dec 11, 2014 22:49
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Spoilers Below posted:Touché. I love that story. Even for bloated fantasy doorstoppers, this series doesn't do too well. Two hundred pages into Game of Thrones, Ned is already King's Landing and Daenerys has wed Drogo, and this is a series with a half-dozen different plot threads going at once AND what amounts to an intro short story that took 20 pages before we even meet anyone who's actually important. Wheel of Time is pretty slow moving itself, but two hundred pages into Eye of the World, Rand et al have fled their home village and are about to end up in Shadar Logoth.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:54
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The astounding number of war crimes our characters commit when we get to those chapters is astonishing. Seriously, one moment always sticks out to me for its sheer hosed-up cruelty.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:55
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It's certainly never made relevant any time soon. A single Sister of the Dark could probably take out the entire palace of Sisters of the Light, not to mention the swelling army of Badsisters that seem to lurk around every corner. Seriously one of the plot points of wielding subtractive magic is that it utterly cancels out additive magic. And I don't mean in the "both sides nullify each other" sense; subtractive magic just outright erases additive magic and keeps on truckin'
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Dec 11, 2014 22:55
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gently caress it, one more post, just so I won't feel bad about dropping THE BOMB in the thread before I go to work in a few hours. Chapters 14 & 15: Richard has made another Mud Person irrationally angry at him by saving his life. This happens a lot because if they did the sane thing, and looked at him as a dude who saved them like ten times now, there would be no irritating conflict in these chapters and we would actually get on with the main plot. This time around, a bitter dickweed from the next tribe over (note: their tribe is not named Mud People, they actually have a loving name for their people) gets himself killed on purpose to start a war because he hates the Mud People. But secretly. So secretly that the other tribe sent him as their only diplomat, allowing him to be martyred. Dipshits, the lot of them. Anyway, I told you that story so I could tell you this one: the angry dude is convinced they will attack from the east, since they are on the MP's eastern border. Richard somehow goes "Wait... they'll come from the NORTH, because TACTICS." The other dude leads them out east anyway. Richard and Kahlan head north and stop them. They did this anyway because "false spirits" spoke to them. This is going to happen a shitload now that the veil between Hell and Earth is torn. Again. Because THERE WERE LITERAL HOLES TO HELL ACTING AS BORDERS FOR YEARS, loving CHRIST. You're probably wondering why I just summarized this instead of quoting. Well, it's simple: it's because this is pointless goddamn filler, because this book is just shy of 1000 pages. Other things I've been cutting out? The process of making Kahlan's wedding dress, and the preparations for their Mud People Marriage. Because it does not matter at all. We're just stalling until he obviously puts the collar on. I would tell you why he puts it on in the end, but oh my god it's hilarious. Speaking of which, the other Sisters come back to the Spirit House. Let's see how that goes. quote:The strength in Sister Elizabeth’s eyes waned. Her hands lowered the collar. Her voice came in a fearful whisper. “Will you accept the offer and the Rada’Han?” Anyway, now that Kahlan knows she's part Subtractive, she can break wizard webs. She does so with force lightning, freeing Richard from Verna making a fire trap for him to leave. Richard figures out why it is that they kill one another - it's a sorceress spell that passes their power on to the next one who tries. Verna's attempt will be the strongest and probably involve compulsion somehow. Ten minutes later they call Darken Rahl out of hell. quote:From the center of the green light, a white brilliance oozed through, to coalesce into a form and stand before them. Her breath caught in her throat. The fine hairs on the back of her neck stood out stiffly. Guys, I'm going to let you in on a little secret: I still love Darken Rahl as an antagonist. He is action villain style through and through. This is some Raul Julia as M. Bison cheese right here. Darken marks Richard with the Mark of the Keeper (which is a handprint - no, really) and just walks right out of the spirit house to go wreak havoc on the world as Ghost rear end in a top hat. It's great. quote:As she stood helpless, he left another kiss on her neck. The horror of the visions it seared through her mind left her feeling defiled beyond anything she had thought possible. “Just a tiny taste. Good-bye, for now, Mother Confessor.” So, uh. I told you he was going to wear the collar in time, and the reason behind it was stupid. Want to see why? quote:Kahlan gripped her fingers into a fist in his hair and pressed her face against his cold cheek. “Please, Richard,” she cried in choking sobs, “please don’t leave me. I would do anything for you. I would die in your place. Don’t die. Don’t leave me. Please, Richard. Don’t die.” Denna was basically in heaven thanks to how Richard killed her, finally at peace. Darken Rahl coming back to the world of the living hosed up the afterlife, though, and she rode the shockwave into reality in his wake. Kahlan's response to this is perfectly normal BARELY CONTROLLED MURDEROUS RAGE, of course. quote:Kahlan nodded. She wasn’t seeing a spirit; she was seeing a woman who had taken Richard as her mate. The power boiled angrily inside her. She struggled to put it down, telling herself that this was to save Richard. She didn’t know any other way; she had to let Denna help, if she could. Kahlan had said she would do anything, and she meant it. Even if it was not to try to kill someone who was already dead. Someone she wanted to kill a thousand times and then another thousand. Denna, to her credit, is straight up honest with Kahlan here, and it's almost entirely praise (which pisses the Mother Confessor off even more). The gist is this: "You are going to have to talk him into wearing that collar, and I am going to tell you how to do so, because I basically hosed him up beyond belief TEN DAYS PRIOR and he still bears those scars." This is still three days after Darken Rahl's death! I want to make a sign that just says "It has been [_] days since a Rahl hosed up the face of the world." and scribble a 0 in the blank. quote:“Kahlan, listen to me. Anyone else would have been broken by what I did. Richard saved himself by partitioning his mind. He locked the core of himself away where I couldn’t get to it, where the magic couldn’t get to it. He used the gift to do that. It saved the core of himself from the insanity. But in the darkest corners of his mind lurks madness. I used his magic against him, to drive him insane. He couldn’t protect all of himself from the things I did. I told you what I did so you could see the truth of his madness. He had to sacrifice that part to save the rest. To save the rest for you. I wish I could have done the same when it was done to me.” Now, let me just point out what a massive jackass Kahlan is right now. She basically burns with hatred equal to one thousand suns because Denna says she loves Richard for being the only person to ever show her kindness... and probably more than Kahlan herself does, because she damns herself to eternal torment forever to save him. quote:Denna knelt next to Richard. Her hand went to the mark, covering it, dissolving into it. Richard’s chest heaved. Denna’s features twisted in pain. She threw her head back with a piercing scream that shot through Kahlan. In the morning, Kahlan says absolutely none of this to Richard.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:57
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:
This is a while back but this quote reminds me of something I've heard somewhere before... http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/List_of_misquotations posted:Darth Vader: No. I am your father. Well done, Goodkind. Well done.
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Dec 11, 2014 23:00
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Actually in light of that last post I realized something that I'd always kind of understood about the series, but finally just put to words: All the major or semi-major villains of this series have exactly the same thing going for them, in that they are effectively invincible. Our heroes are never up against a relatively equally-matched but intelligent and ruthless foe, nor are they ever in a situation where the other side is simply more powerful and thus they are fighting a losing battle or a war of attrition from the shadows. Yes, those things occasionally happen, but the grand badguys themselves are defined by utter invulnerability and bullshit powers that shut down any pretense of a battle well before it begins. Here's a quick rundown of various villain powers: 1. Total invulnerability/subtractive magic/only actual wizard/controls every army/controls world-smashing artifacts 2. Total invulnerability due to magic that cancels out all other magic 3. Can mind control anyone forever with unlimited use (leading to total invulnerability) Since the only way to possibly beat these foes is through rules-lawyering and even more obscene superpowers, it stands to reason that ONLY our hero Rick can actually do anything against any of the bad guys, which makes none of the actions anyone but Richard takes accomplish anything noteworthy at all. It also means that no matter how much of a petulant child and mass murderer he becomes he is the only character who can be objectively right since no other hero could possibly arise in his place.
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Dec 11, 2014 23:04
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:Now, let me just point out what a massive jackass Kahlan is right now. She basically burns with hatred equal to one thousand suns because Denna says she loves Richard for being the only person to ever show her kindness... and probably more than Kahlan herself does, because she damns herself to eternal torment forever to save him. This is it, guys. This is our female lead. (Please note that, unlike Richard, Kahlan is almost always viciously shamed for her feminine weaknesses. In incredibly cruel ways.)
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Dec 11, 2014 23:10
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I don't know why this story is filling me with so much unreasonable white-hot rage. All I know is this book (and the previous) is offensively bad. Not just boring, like so much other fantasy fiction, but outright maddening. I think it's because of the sheer volume of contrived bullshit Goodkind is pulling out of his arse. Random poo poo (boxes of Orden, I Can't Believe They're Not Aes Sedai, Darken Rahl II: Return of Rahl...) just appears out of thin air, although to be honest Rick should've realized that what he was doing on that last one was bloody stupid. I wonder if in some earlier draft of this book Rick didn't know who his daddy was until after the rite had already gone off. At least then he wouldn't be stupid, just ignorant, but then again it would only exacerbate the whole "just sit down and talk to each other for ten minutes, jesus" thing. Like, no one in this seems to be acting rationally. They just get pushed around by Goodkind's whims via whatever stupid magical proxy he came up with for this particular section. Aghhh. I guess on the upside, most of the objectivist bullshit seems to have been replaced with regular old bullshit in this book so far?
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Dec 11, 2014 23:16
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I Love You! posted:Since the only way to possibly beat these foes is through rules-lawyering and even more obscene superpowers, it stands to reason that ONLY our hero Rick can actually do anything against any of the bad guys, which makes none of the actions anyone but Richard takes accomplish anything noteworthy at all. It also means that no matter how much of a petulant child and mass murderer he becomes he is the only character who can be objectively right since no other hero could possibly arise in his place. Later books come right out and say that 3,000 years ago, über wizards set up EVERYTHING so that Richy-Rich would be in the right place, at the right time, with the right context, mindset, learnings, attitude and tools to do whatever. To the point of seeing to it that he's a contrary gently caress, then arranging things to trigger that, so if all goes JUST AS PLANNED. He is equally completely justified and completely blameless for anything he winds up doing.
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Dec 11, 2014 23:17
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