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Trabisnikof posted:You're very naive if you think this spending bill is close to everything the Republicans wanted.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:17
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Willa Rogers posted:We'll see how that shakes out (and did, to some extent, with this year's midterm results); MA only shaved medical BK a couple points with Romneycare. I don't think most Americans are as delighted with paying 25 percent of their gross salaries toward premiums + out-of-pocket costs toward medical care as you think they are. Willa Rogers posted:Gosh, I dunno... maybe "How do we fix this?" rather than lazily falling back on partisan caricatures and making lesser-evil arguments? From where I'm sitting lesser evil is the only option I have so I'll take it. I'll be the first in line to vote you benevolent dictator for life but since that's never going to happen maybe we can stick to working within the system we are stuck with. poo poo isn't going to get fixed today but maybe with enough push in the right direction it will. I don't regret my lesser of the evils vote for Obama, his healthcare reform, as lovely as it is, has already helped me. Grater fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 22:18
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Willa Rogers posted:We'll see how that shakes out (and did, to some extent, with this year's midterm results); MA only shaved medical BK a couple points after Romneycare. I don't think most Americans are as delighted with paying 25 percent of their gross salaries toward premiums + out-of-pocket costs toward medical care as you think they are. You're using circular logic: arguing that voters rationally oppose the Democrats because they don't do things for them economically, and now arguing that Democrats don't do things for voters and you can prove that the things they did were bad because voters don't like them. You can't do both. The reality is that the ACA was the most positive economic benefit for lower-class and lower-middle class Americans in a generation. Once we've established that we can clearly see that your initial premise - that voters rationally oppose Democrats because Democrats never do anything economically for them - is incorrect.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:18
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I think the real issue here is that what the GOP wants has gotten so cartoonishly evil the past few years that it's getting harder to see that Dems Also Bad.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:18
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GlyphGryph posted:Please, list the things that are in it that they didn't want. I would like to see things from another perspective. Articles of Impeachment for one Barack Obama and one Joseph Biden.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:18
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Kalman posted:Most Americans aren't paying 25 percent of gross. No, most Americans will never utilize their full deductible under Obamacare. For those who do, likely us olds, it sucks.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:18
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Willa Rogers posted:No, most Americans will never utilize their full deductible under Obamacare. For those who do, likely us olds, it sucks. Anyone paying that much in deductibles would be absolutely hosed without insurance and so they should be thanking their lucky stars the ACA passed.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:19
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Some democrats are fighting it, and good on them, but the most important democrat right now said he'd sign the thing as is. The point is there is a meaningful distinction between parties and wanting the D's to get their way on this is living in the political reality and not lapdog Democratic Sychophantry. evilweasel posted:Anyone paying that much in deductibles would be absolutely hosed without insurance and so they should be thanking their lucky stars the ACA passed. I don't want to shock you but I don't think that guy has any idea what he's talking about.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:20
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Grater posted:No, I don't think anyone anywhere is entirely happy with the healthcare reform but we can celebrate some of the positives of it. We don't have to hate every bit of it because it's not perfect. poo poo, I think the healthcare law sucks and goes nowhere near far enough. I'd love something better but being married to someone with cancer, the law has already provided tangible benefits to me. I've said throughout the PPACA thread that the bill is both very very good (expanded Medicaid) and very very bad (high out-of-pocket costs relative to income). That "no, it's not perfect, but..." is a Celinda Lake talking point that's been swallowed by Dem partisans.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:21
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Grapeshot posted:How much does it really matter what's in this bill, when there's going to be another fight about it in September? If any of the poison pills is taken out now, it's sure going to back in next time around. The status quo can matter a fair bit in the negotiations and fallout. It's easier to, say, let tax cuts expire than raise taxes.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:22
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Willa Rogers posted:I've said throughout the PPACA thread that the bill is both very very good (expanded Medicaid) and very very bad (high out-of-pocket costs relative to income). That "no, it's not perfect, but..." is a Celinda Lake talking point that's been swallowed by Dem partisans.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:23
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zoux posted:I don't want to shock you but I don't think that guy has any idea what he's talking about. Willa is a woman and also correct. Please try to keep up.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:23
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Willa Rogers posted:We'll see how that shakes out (and did, to some extent, with this year's midterm results); MA only shaved medical BK a couple points after Romneycare. I don't think most Americans are as delighted with paying 25 percent of their gross salaries toward premiums + out-of-pocket costs toward medical care as you think they are. Our dearly beloved Democrats surely spiked any kind of positive outcome for single payer healthcare in those town halls and other attempts to get the public on board with lowering their own medical costs. It surely was on them that the people of America willingly believed people with teabags dangling from actual tricorne loving hats instead of what was actually being proposed. It was the Democrats fault for making those behatted fuckwits come and shout down every attempt at explaination that they themselves were trying to give. Or maybe the American people really are that loving stupid that they'll listen to the easier to parse message every single time.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:24
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Willa Rogers posted:I've said throughout the PPACA thread that the bill is both very very good (expanded Medicaid) and very very bad (high out-of-pocket costs relative to income). That "no, it's not perfect, but..." is a Celinda Lake talking point that's been swallowed by Dem partisans. So then what the gently caress are you saying here? Like, you said the bill has good and bad aspects, but anyone who says it's not perfect but it's helped in a lot of ways too is a mindless partisan drone? Do you have any point here other than 'everyone but me, Willa Rogers, is stupid'?
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Dec 11, 2014 22:24
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Willa Rogers posted:I've said throughout the PPACA thread that the bill is both very very good (expanded Medicaid) and very very bad (high out-of-pocket costs relative to income). That "no, it's not perfect, but..." is a Celinda Lake talking point that's been swallowed by Dem partisans. The bill is a massive improvement over the status quo. It's a talking point because it's correct.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:24
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evilweasel posted:You're using circular logic: arguing that voters rationally oppose the Democrats because they don't do things for them economically, and now arguing that Democrats don't do things for voters and you can prove that the things they did were bad because voters don't like them. You can't do both. The reality is that the ACA was the most positive economic benefit for lower-class and lower-middle class Americans in a generation. Once we've established that we can clearly see that your initial premise - that voters rationally oppose Democrats because Democrats never do anything economically for them - is incorrect. Except almost everybody that I know that's eligible for exchanges isn't seeing a giant windfall, is still poor and struggling, and still thinks that Democrats don't give a poo poo about it. I just had a nice chat over the weekend with a friend who's on medicare and can't get surgery on his foot problem and was saddled with thousands of dollars in bills for his knee replacement last year.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:25
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Zeitgueist posted:Except almost everybody that I know that's eligible for exchanges isn't seeing a giant windfall, is still poor and struggling, and still thinks that Democrats don't give a poo poo about it. Well hell my Type 1 diabetic roommate has coverage for the first time in his life because he couldn't get a policy due to preexisting conditions and he's saving a ton of money so now our anecdotes have cancelled out! Healthcare cost growth is the lowest it's been since 1960, the rate of uninsured continues to drop and people continue to utilize the government exchanges to find healthcare where they couldn't before. Would it have been cool to have a public option? Yep, but we didn't get that, so here we are.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:26
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Zeitgueist posted:Except almost everybody that I know that's eligible for exchanges isn't seeing a giant windfall, is still poor and struggling, and still thinks that Democrats don't give a poo poo about it. Unless you've really bought into Republican propaganda about obamacare being communism I'm not sure why you'd think that the ACA would fix people being poor.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:27
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Tatum Girlparts posted:So then what the gently caress are you saying here? Like, you said the bill has good and bad aspects, but anyone who says it's not perfect but it's helped in a lot of ways too is a mindless partisan drone? Do you have any point here other than 'everyone but me, Willa Rogers, is stupid'? I have never, in all the years I've read these threads, been able to figure out who Willa is actually mad at.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:27
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zoux posted:Well hell my Type 1 diabetic roommate has coverage for the first time in his life because he couldn't get a policy due to preexisting conditions so now our anecdotes have cancelled out! Bills aren't 100% bad or 100% good. Weren't you making fun of Willa for "HS socialist" level political realizations earlier?
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Dec 11, 2014 22:27
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Hoyer isn't whipping the bill, so Obama and Biden are now personally making calls to House Democrats.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:27
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evilweasel posted:Unless you've really bought into Republican propaganda about obamacare being communism I'm not sure why you'd think that the ACA would fix people being poor. That's not what I said, try again.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:27
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Zombie Samurai posted:I have never, in all the years I've read these threads, been able to figure out who Willa is actually mad at. Everyone.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:28
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Zombie Samurai posted:I have never, in all the years I've read these threads, been able to figure out who Willa is actually mad at.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:28
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Joementum posted:Hoyer isn't whipping the bill, so Obama and Biden are now personally making calls to House Democrats. Ahahahahaha
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Dec 11, 2014 22:28
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Everyone. Democratic apologists/rationalizations. She wants people to want better, not explain how things are the best they can possibly be.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:29
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willa fuckin' hates PPACA and everything about it because it isn't straight up single payer.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:29
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GlyphGryph posted:Please, list the things that are in it that they didn't want. I would like to see things from another perspective. Well for starters, its much closer to the Obama budget numbers than the Ryan numbers. That's a big deal that's easy to overlook. * CDC gets money to fight Ebola * Billions for mass transit * Science research got funded * Black people get a museum * None of the cuts to food stamps, NIH, etc are "deep enough" The biggest things are what isn't in the bill: * No defunding Obamacare * No overriding the executive actions on immigration * No Keystone approval Doctor Butts posted:willa fuckin' hates PPACA and everything about it because it isn't straight up single payer. If I had been President, well let me tell you!
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Dec 11, 2014 22:29
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Joementum posted:Hoyer isn't whipping the bill, so Obama and Biden are now personally making calls to House Democrats. Well this should be interesting. Zeitgueist posted:Democratic apologists/rationalizations. Actually he's gleefully pointing out how poo poo the democrats are and how everyone who is trying to look for a bright side is an idiot.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:30
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zoux posted:Well hell my Type 1 diabetic roommate has coverage for the first time in his life because he couldn't get a policy due to preexisting conditions and he's saving a ton of money so now our anecdotes have cancelled out! 
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Dec 11, 2014 22:30
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Articles of Impeachment for one Barack Obama and one Joseph Biden. I'm pretty sure this wasn't attached as a rider, and the Republicans would have wanted it, so either you misunderstood me or you are double-wrong. zoux posted:Hmmm the Democrats are fighting this bill because of provisions that allow the same sort of schemes that led to the economic collapse and the Republicans that are against it want to force an amendment fighting Obama's executive immigration order but you know what: they're equally bad and poo poo and you all think they're good but spoiler: they're not. Let me rephrase his statement as something more reasonable: Most, or at least manym Democrats are equally as bad as Republicans on a large number of incredibly important issues, and this is frustrating as gently caress. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 22:30
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If you have an issue with Willa's post, maybe a good solution is to post at her, I dunno.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:30
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GlyphGryph posted:I'm pretty sure this wasn't attached as a rider, and the Republicans would have wanted it, so either you misunderstood me or you are double-wrong. Cool but this spending bill the, ahem, CRomnibus, isn't one of them.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:31
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Trabisnikof posted:The biggest things are what isn't in the bill: Truly great accomplishments worthy of praise. Though is Congress even capable of overriding the EA on immigration?
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Dec 11, 2014 22:31
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Zeitgueist posted:That's not what I said, try again. Given your response to me and zoux it's pretty clear the issue is that you don't understand why these posts show you're wrong. Your post had three things: (1) that people don't credit the Democratic party for how much the ACA helped people (a given), (2) that there are still people who are poor (what I responded to) and (3) an anecdode (what zoux responded to, and then you made a non sequitur about bills being 100% good or bad). As you can see, that is indeed what you said. That you didn't think it through or didn't understand why these responses addressed it is on you.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:31
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Zeitgueist posted:If you have an issue with Willa's post, maybe a good solution is to post at her, I dunno. Then don't position yourself as spokesman.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:31
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Truly great accomplishments worthy of praise. Though is Congress even capable of overriding the EA on immigration? Absolutely, if it were to become law.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:31
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Why don't the Dems try for the current bill, no riders (including no student interest thing), but tack on Keystone? Otherwise they'll just keep hammering the Keystone thing away in elections, but this lets Dems co-opt the compromise thing they desperately love.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:32
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evilweasel posted:Given your response to me and zoux it's pretty clear the issue is that you don't understand why these posts show you're wrong. Your post had three things: (1) that people don't credit the Democratic party for how much the ACA helped people (a given), (2) that there are still people who are poor (what I responded to) and (3) an anecdode (what zoux responded to, and then you made a non sequitur about bills being 100% good or bad). I dunno I'm more under the impression his friend is mad that the ACA doesn't go far enough for helping people with medical costs, and thinks the Democrats don't give a gently caress to fix that.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:33
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Beamed posted:Why don't the Dems try for the current bill, no riders (including no student interest thing), but tack on Keystone? Otherwise they'll just keep hammering the Keystone thing away in elections, but this lets Dems co-opt the compromise thing they desperately love. Republicans don't actually care about Keystone as a policy matter and won't trade anything for it. They just want it as an election thing.
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Dec 11, 2014 22:33
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