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Who What Now posted:God already knows who will or will not reject him before they are even born. Man has no choice in the matter. God knows it because they chose it.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:48
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Cavaradossi posted:No. Man has free will and can choose to accept or reject God. God knows the choices we make. Let's call it like it is in this scenario... God created the choosing that we will have realized.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:49
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Cavaradossi posted:Because that's what suffering is: the rejection of God. People who supposedly know and love God suffer as well, bro.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:49
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Cavaradossi posted:He did! We rejected it. I must have missed this memo, I don't remember rejecting anything like that.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:49
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Who What Now posted:People who supposedly know and love God suffer as well, bro. We are all sinners.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:50
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Cavaradossi posted:Because that's what suffering is: the rejection of God. Except I reject, or at least don't accept, God at the moment. I wouldn't describe my existence as especially painful. Whereas Hell is almost defined as a place where we will suffer, so I would assume it's pretty bad. If, after I die, I got reincarnated as basically myself again, I'd be fairly happy with that. But that isn't what Christianity teaches, or at least no branch of it I'm aware of.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:51
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Muscle Tracer posted:I must have missed this memo, I don't remember rejecting anything like that. Sorry... CCC 416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:51
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Cavaradossi posted:God knows it because they chose it. But God chose whether they would choose it, right?
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Dec 12, 2014 00:51
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Cavaradossi posted:Because that's what suffering is: the rejection of God. I just want to point out that rhetoric like this, or the idiotic "what does it mean to be the Son of God" argument, or the "word" argument, or the "savior/salvation" argument, that this is literally the definition of a coercive cult. This is like Freemen on the Land of religions, in which you unlock the secret meanings of words and thereby wield astonishing power over the justice system. Yall are in for a rude loving awakening. Cavaradossi posted:Sorry... CCC 416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings. That's against my Constitutional rights!!!
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Dec 12, 2014 00:52
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Cavaradossi posted:We are all sinners.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:52
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Cavaradossi posted:God knows it because they chose it. They never had a choice because God has predestined it from the dawn of time. Let me put it to you this way: God omnisciently knows that I will eat an apple for breakfast tomorrow. He has known it for an infinity before creation and has and will know it for all time. There is absolutely no doubt in his mind that I will eat that apple. Now, could I exercise my free will and instead choose to eat a banana and surprise God? If I can't then there is only one choice I could make and that isn't a choice at all. If I can then God isn't omniscient. It's either or, it cannot be both because they are contradictory to one another.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:53
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Who What Now posted:They never had a choice because God has predestined it from the dawn of time. 
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Dec 12, 2014 00:54
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Cavaradossi posted:Sorry... CCC 416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings. Punishing the son for the crimes of the father is insanely evil.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:54
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Cavaradossi posted:Sorry... CCC 416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings. So God punishes people for their ancestors mistakes/sins. You've also ignored like half a dozen questions. Try harder. Cavaradossi posted:Because that's what suffering is: the rejection of God. Now you're redefining words in nonsensical and tautological ways: "You only suffer if you reject God, and suffering is the rejection of God." Cavaradossi posted:God has ground rules too. If removing free will is such a no-no, why does it happen? Once again, mental impairment. A child born with only a brainstem. And who made those ground rules?
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Dec 12, 2014 00:55
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Who What Now posted:They never had a choice because God has predestined it from the dawn of time. If you chose to eat a banana, God would have known that instead. It was still your choice.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:55
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Who What Now posted:Punishing the son for the crimes of the father is insanely evil. Lucky that Christ has redeemed us then.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:58
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God works via retroactive continuity? It's certainly an interesting notion that humanity perpetually redefines God by our every action but it does rather hamstring the idea of him being all powerful. Cavaradossi posted:Lucky that Christ has redeemed us then. So God was only evil for the thousands of years before Jesus was born then?
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Dec 12, 2014 00:58
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Cavaradossi posted:If you chose to eat a banana, God would have known that instead. It was still your choice. If God cannot be surprised, then any choices I may make cannot be ones which would surprise God, therefore free will is compromised.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:59
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Sharkie posted:You've also ignored like half a dozen questions. There are more of you than me  If you want the answers from Catechism, they're here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
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Dec 12, 2014 00:59
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Cavaradossi posted:If you chose to eat a banana, God would have known that instead. It was still your choice. But it was also God's choice, right? It was both, no? I would really like an answer about this if you wouldn't mind.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:59
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Cavaradossi posted:If you chose to eat a banana, God would have known that instead. It was still your choice. What part of "mutually exclusive contradictory positions" did you not understand. It is literally, not figuratively but literally, *IMPOSSIBLE* for it God to know all choice ahead of time and for there to be free will.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:59
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Cavaradossi posted:If you chose to eat a banana, God would have known that instead. It was still your choice. How? You've asserted that multiple times and received as many or more counter arguments without response. How is there choice when the entirety of causality as it will have been was created with full foreknowledge of what would happen? Are you saying that we made our choices before we existed?
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Dec 12, 2014 00:59
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Cavaradossi posted:Lucky that Christ has redeemed us then. That doesn't absolve the evilness of doing it in the first place.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:00
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Sharkie posted:If God cannot be surprised, then any choices I may make cannot be ones which would surprise God, therefore free will is compromised. No more than it is by not being able to choose to fly.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:01
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Bel Shazar posted:Are you saying that we made our choices before we existed? God knows what we choose.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:01
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Cavaradossi posted:No more than it is by not being able to choose to fly. You may have to explain that one.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:02
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Cavaradossi posted:God knows what we choose. Don't you mean "God created our act of choosing"?
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Dec 12, 2014 01:02
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Who What Now posted:What part of "mutually exclusive contradictory positions" did you not understand. It is literally, not figuratively but literally, *IMPOSSIBLE* for it God to know all choice ahead of time and for there to be free will. You say that. I (and the CCC) don't.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:03
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Bel Shazar posted:Don't you mean "God created our act of choosing"? ...and knows what we choose.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:03
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Cavaradossi posted:There are more of you than me Every poster can say that, you ignore multiple things when you can't search for them quickly enough on another website. Cavaradossi posted:No more than it is by not being able to choose to fly. That was about God constraining action, not moral choices. If God can't be surprised, I am constrained from making a moral choice that would surprise God, therefore free will is broken.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:03
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Cavaradossi posted:God knows what we choose. If we can only choose what God already knows we will choose then it's not a choice. A choice of 1 option is not a choice.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:03
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OwlFancier posted:You may have to explain that one. I cannot choose what is impossible, that's not the choice I'm given.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:04
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Cavaradossi posted:You say that. I (and the CCC) don't. You (and the CCC) are wrong.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:04
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Cavaradossi posted:...and knows what we choose. Ok, good, you DO acknowledge that God gave our choice to us. Thanks, that clears this up for me. I'm not quite sure how you reason away the fact that your belief means that free will is an illusion, but I'm glad we're on at least part of the same page. I really thought you were claiming that free will was ACTUALLY a thing. /edit Lord I can't spell tonight :/
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Dec 12, 2014 01:05
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Sharkie posted:Every poster can say that, you ignore multiple things when you can't search for them quickly enough on another website. Search for them yourself then: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM. Sharkie posted:That was about God constraining action, not moral choices. If God can't be surprised, I am constrained from making a moral choice that would surprise God, therefore free will is broken. Not really making sense. "Surprising God" doesn't sound like a moral choice.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:06
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Cavaradossi posted:I cannot choose what is impossible, that's not the choice I'm given. That statement itself sort of contradicts the notion of free will because it places it under material constraints. If your will is truly free, it should be able to choose anything, if your will is constrained by material things like physics and the limits of your brain, it's a material effect, which makes it... not much different from any other physical force in the world, entirely predictable given sufficient knowledge. The concept of free will requires it to be some sort of entirely magical, unrestrained idea.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:07
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Bel Shazar posted:Ok, good, you DO acknowledge that God gave our choice to us. CCC 1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:07
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I still don't understand why God commits sins through his creations. That doesn't make any internal sense.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:08
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Cavaradossi posted:Not really making sense. "Surprising God" doesn't sound like a moral choice. The point is that you can't make a choice that is unknown to an omniscient God. If God is omniscient, he cannot be surprised by a moral choice you make. Therefore, when you are making moral choices, the only one you have available is the choice that God knows, therefore eliminating the choices that would "surprise God" by violating his omniscience, therefore you don't have the free will to make that moral choice. Cavaradossi posted:CCC 1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. Except the ones that aren't rational beings and cannot initiate or control their actions.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:10
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Sharkie posted:The point is that you can't make a choice that is unknown to an omniscient God. If God is omniscient, he cannot be surprised by a moral choice you make. Therefore, when you are making moral choices, the only one you have available is the choice that God knows, therefore eliminating the choices that would "surprise God" by violating his omniscience, therefore you don't have the free will to make that moral choice. You have the choice. God knows what you choose.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:12
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