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deadking posted:I can't remember, did Hae have a cell phone? If not it would maybe explain why Adnan didn't call after Hae was reported missing. There's not much point in calling the house of a missing person whose family is home. She had a pager.
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Dec 14, 2014 00:51
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Listening to episode 10 again and SK mentions that Gutierez (sp) points out during the first trial that we don't even know the exact day Hae was murdered. I can't recall, how is time/date of death established? Was it really a question? It seems like if she was possibly killed any other day, then someone else is possibly responsible and the prosecution falls apart.
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Dec 14, 2014 01:27
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Conrad_Birdie posted:Bedpan is the SuperMechaGodzilla of Serial. Serial fans don't actually like Serial.
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Dec 14, 2014 01:31
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frenchnewwave posted:Listening to episode 10 again and SK mentions that Gutierez (sp) points out during the first trial that we don't even know the exact day Hae was murdered. I can't recall, how is time/date of death established? Was it really a question? It seems like if she was possibly killed any other day, then someone else is possibly responsible and the prosecution falls apart. Yes, forensically it's really an open question as to her date of death. The coroner/state never established it.
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Dec 14, 2014 01:48
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Shitshow posted:Yes, forensically it's really an open question as to her date of death. The coroner/state never established it. That seems so huge to me 
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Dec 14, 2014 01:57
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frenchnewwave posted:That seems so huge to me I mean it really just shows how the ENTIRE case is based around Jay's testimony. Literally the entire thing. There is no other evidence at all.
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Dec 14, 2014 02:01
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Drunk Tomato posted:I mean it really just shows how the ENTIRE case is based around Jay's testimony. Literally the entire thing. There is no other evidence at all. There's the cell tower pings and Nisha call evidence.
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Dec 14, 2014 02:03
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Mr. Flunchy posted:There's the cell tower pings and Nisha call evidence. But without Jay's story, those are just things that happened in a vacuum.
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Dec 14, 2014 02:03
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frenchnewwave posted:That seems so huge to me I dunno it opens up two possibilities, that she was kidnapped and held somewhere before being killed or willfully disappeared at first but then was killed later. Neither seem particularly likely and there's also the fact that Adnan's cell phone was near the park that night.
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Dec 14, 2014 02:04
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Drunk Tomato posted:I mean it really just shows how the ENTIRE case is based around Jay's testimony. Literally the entire thing. There is no other evidence at all. And in the end, despite SK discussing a number of things that discredit Jay's testimony, she always returns to it and views Jay's testimony as the truth or at least as close to the truth as she can get. She follows up Adnan's theft story in part 11 with Jay's testimony on Adnan's poor character, it is pretty clear who's interpretation of events she in the end accepts. I guess I am frustrated that SK never really makes much of the flaws in the case. Eggnogium posted:I dunno it opens up two possibilities, that she was kidnapped and held somewhere before being killed or willfully disappeared at first but then was killed later. Neither seem particularly likely and there's also the fact that Adnan's cell phone was near the park that night. During the cross examination of the cell phone expert he admitted that cell phones can activate upon three different towers and that registering on a certain tower is no guaranteed or guide to a location in the tower's radius. I've found SK's usage of the court documents to be pretty weak. bedpan fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Dec 14, 2014 |
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Dec 14, 2014 02:07
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bedpan, you're a trip. If there's one thing every listener agrees on, it's that the state's case has huge holes in it and there is no way Adnan is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That is all down to SK's reporting.
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Dec 14, 2014 02:11
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frenchnewwave posted:That seems so huge to me If it snowed that night, the ground probably have frozen and made it so much more difficult to bury her.
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Dec 14, 2014 02:16
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Shitshow posted:bedpan, you're a trip. If there's one thing every listener agrees on, it's that the state's case has huge holes in it and there is no way Adnan is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That is all down to SK's reporting. Again, SK takes continues to take Jay at face value and to accept what he has told to the police and the courts as the truth. He is still treated as a credible witness with an accurate recounting of the day's events. This is what is frustrating to me. bedpan fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Dec 14, 2014 |
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Dec 14, 2014 02:30
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bedpan posted:And the holes are dismissed with a shrug, that is her reporting. Again, SK takes continues to take Jay at face value and to accept what he has told to the police and the courts as the truth. He is still treated as a credible witness with an accurate recounting of the day's events. This is what is frustrating to me. As Jay's evidence is the basis of conviction you have to treat it as a kind of 'legal truth'.
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Dec 14, 2014 02:36
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Mr. Flunchy posted:As Jay's evidence is the basis of conviction you have to treat it as a kind of 'legal truth'. True enough. Adnan, guilty or innocent, is going to spend the rest of his life in jail barring a god damned miracle or him lying to the parole board.
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Dec 14, 2014 02:38
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SK's either profoundly naive or bent on presenting the case as if she were addressing a kindergartner (or, too, some combination thereof); . It's a long bow to draw, interpreting a young man's capacity to perform a petty crime as indicative of a capacity to commit murder, but one that SK seems - essentially - capable of making in episode 11. At least she seems cognizant of how damaging (and even painful) - to real, actual people - her investigations have been. The information and analysis presented in ep 11 are irresponsible, at best. Adnan has absolutely no history of violent behavior, nothing indicating physicality or even anger issues; he seems the bastion of stability, now and in hindsight (around his arrest and court case). Without getting too internet detective-y, Jay has a considerable police record, including domestic violence arrests. That's substantial. Between this case, and the current events elsewhere in America, it's terrifying to consider any brush with the law or legal system. I always knew, on some level, how Kafkaesque the entire criminal system was but now have a more complete grasp of how little it requires (and how much depends on sheer, dumb luck) to be locked away.
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Dec 14, 2014 03:52
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bedpan posted:True enough. Maybe there'll be someone on the parole board who completely ignores giant parts of the narrative in order to support a bullshit argument.
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Dec 14, 2014 05:01
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I think people have attached a lot of their own sentiments to Serial (i.e. millennials making everything about themselves) but from the start I assumed SK would provide a resolution of some sort. If she really spent a year on this, then she would have some evidence or substantial theory that provided a sense of closure. Otherwise you just get "here's this thing that happened, and a lot of details, look at this thing" and that's NOT a story. It's half a story. SK hasn't even really looked into alternative narratives. For example, Jay's plea bargain. He pled to accessory after the fact and got off with probation, which he later violated (and retained the same lawyer for) and spent some time in the clink. His father was arrested three times for drug possession (non-marijuana) in three consecutive months that same year. Jen has a pretty lengthy criminal history as well. Now, that doesn't mean Jay is lying about this one thing, or if Adnan is lying. But there is a reality surrounding Hae's murder that SK cannot even begin to penetrate. I'm interested in whodunit but also howdunit and maybe whydunit, but only this most recent episode touched on the latter. Also there are obvious questions posed by the cellphone record that have not been mentioned - the night before, those conversations, locations, etc. I'm not accusing SK of bad reporting. This is a good show. But I hope there's some sort of revelatory information next episode.
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Dec 14, 2014 05:25
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frenchnewwave posted:That seems so huge to me Her body wasn't found until six weeks later - it's not really possible to determine a day/time of death after that length of time. You can look into ways forensics try to do this sort of thing - if someone was killed in last day or so you can pin down a time but after that it's all variable decomposition rates and insect life cycles.
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Dec 14, 2014 05:40
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bad day posted:I think people have attached a lot of their own sentiments to Serial (i.e. millennials making everything about themselves) but from the start I assumed SK would provide a resolution of some sort. If she really spent a year on this, then she would have some evidence or substantial theory that provided a sense of closure. Otherwise you just get "here's this thing that happened, and a lot of details, look at this thing" and that's NOT a story. It's half a story. SK hasn't even really looked into alternative narratives. You're going to be let down so hard. It seemed clear to me from episode one that nothing was going to be solved in this.
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Dec 14, 2014 06:18
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Shitshow posted:Yes, forensically it's really an open question as to her date of death. The coroner/state never established it.
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Dec 14, 2014 10:16
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Bitchkrieg posted:Between this case, and the current events elsewhere in America, it's terrifying to consider any brush with the law or legal system. I always knew, on some level, how Kafkaesque the entire criminal system was but now have a more complete grasp of how little it requires (and how much depends on sheer, dumb luck) to be locked away. Our legal system is based on the clash of two champions and the defendant can commit no greater error than selecting an unworthy champion. Adnan is in jail today because his attorney was at best appallingly incompetent, medically unfit, and courtroom poison and for no other reason. The police, the prosecutor, the judge, and the jury all acted as they should, this a rather frightening notion considering the outcome, and it is only the defense council that failed in any real sense. Agitating for the rights of the accused is not an easy thing to do though and it is only recently (I think Powell v. Alabama in 1932 for capital and Gideon v. Wainwright in 1963 for other offenses) that the courts have recognized the need for a defense council. For the most part, it is not considered to be contrary to the pursuit of justice to have the accused either face the entire weight of the criminal justice system alone or with miserable council or be the victim of even the most egregious investigative or prosecutorial misconduct. Sivart13 posted:She didn't show up to pick up her cousin or whatever so unless you believe she was kidnapped and held for some time then her being killed on that day is the occam's razor solution. With the state's case hinging on less than a half hour of movements it is a point to consider. bedpan fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Dec 14, 2014 |
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Dec 14, 2014 11:28
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rear end Catchcum posted:This show really could have just been 2 This American Life episodes. All of the important facts were pretty much vomited on us in the first episode, and the other 10 have been SK getting weirdly attached to this guy, to the point he even says "Hey, uh, lady, you don't know me. Back off."
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Dec 14, 2014 11:48
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It's always seemed to me that Koenig is consciously presenting herself as a representative of the audience's suspicions and emotions at various points in the case progresses. In the early episodes we're as charmed and perplexed by Adnan's niceness and apparent innocence as she was, but as the evidence mounts up our doubts are mounting and we're becoming more wary of Adnan. If Serial is doing it's job right it should be gradually changing your mind on Adnan's innocence. Thing is, once a lot of people have formed an opinion they'll hang onto it for dear life rather than admit they were even slightly wrong. Serial is essentially simulating being on a jury.
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Dec 14, 2014 12:05
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Sivart13 posted:She didn't show up to pick up her cousin or whatever so unless you believe she was kidnapped and held for some time then her being killed on that day is the occam's razor solution. Absolutely. She was seen in one place, expected in another but didn't arrive so the simplest assumption is that something happened between those two points in time. However the simplest solution is not always the correct one and in the light of other difficult facts - trying to get Adnan to commit the crime and dispose of the body in that period, the caller who said they saw Hae in between, Asia's statement that Adnan was elsewhere - it's reasonable to examine that assumption and look for alternatives. (Note: I don't believe she was kidnapped and held for a lengthy period because we have no evidence of that. But that one assumption above is holding down the rest of the states case.)
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Dec 14, 2014 13:17
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Sivart13 posted:She didn't show up to pick up her cousin or whatever so unless you believe she was kidnapped and held for some time then her being killed on that day is the occam's razor solution. I don't disagree with this, but occam's razor is not proof.
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Dec 14, 2014 14:26
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bedpan posted:The police, the prosecutor, the judge, and the jury all acted as they should Except for when the jury ignored the judge's instructions not to factor in Adnan's lack of testimony into their deliberations
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Dec 14, 2014 14:54
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outlier posted:
This is pretty much what I mean. Is it most believable that she was killed the day she disappeared? Yes of course. But the state's case is built upon dominoes where if one is removed, the case seems a lot less tight. I don't know where I stand on Adnan's innocence. The first few episodes I was all FREE ADNAN but I'm not so sure. What motive would Jay have for framing Adnan? Other than covering up his own involvement. It seems unlikely that Jay acted on his own. If anything he and Adnan acted together.
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Dec 14, 2014 15:04
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Riptor posted:Except for when the jury ignored the judge's instructions not to factor in Adnan's lack of testimony into their deliberations But that's like bleep bloop people are not robots stuff. If such bias constituted a mistrial nobody would ever be convicted of anything.
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Dec 14, 2014 15:46
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Riptor posted:Except for when the jury ignored the judge's instructions not to factor in Adnan's lack of testimony into their deliberations Welp, I didn't catch how the judge instructed the jury. I knew they had weighed Adnan's exercise of his constitutional rights against him but I did not know the judge had given instructions to the contrary. Also, there was some bad behavior on part of the prosecutor and some questionable rulings by the judge, but in the grand scheme of things all the parts but defendant's council operated according to plan. It still is pretty sick that the jury wanted Adnan to surrender his rights to a fair trial though. frenchnewwave posted:What motive would Jay have for framing Adnan? An excellent motive: that either he works with the investigators and testifies against Adnan or goes down for the crime himself. bedpan fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Dec 14, 2014 |
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Dec 14, 2014 15:49
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bedpan posted:An excellent motive: that either he works with the investigators and testifies against Adnan or goes down for the crime himself. This is ignoring the fact that if Jay's plan was to frame Adnan, he was doing so well before he talked to the police. The most positive evidence is that Jenn talked to the police before Jay did, and she knew how she was killed.
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Dec 14, 2014 16:32
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The facts of the case that matter are much, much simpler than presented in Serial. There's an eye witness who ties Adnan to the murder, and that eye witness had special knowledge of the murder. There's also cell phone records tying Adnan to the place the body was buried during the time it was buried. That's it. That's way more than you need to show that beyond a reasonable doubt Adnan was involved in the murder. Beyond a reasonable doubt does not mean that everything Jay said is correct, or that beyond a reasonable doubt the state's timeline and motive are correct. It's just whether or not Adnan killed her. We know beyond a reasonable doubt he did because there are no other alternatives that are reasonable. Fact.
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Dec 14, 2014 21:28
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African AIDS cum posted:The facts of the case that matter are much, much simpler than presented in Serial. There's an eye witness who ties Adnan to the murder, and that eye witness had special knowledge of the murder. There's also cell phone records tying Adnan to the place the body was buried during the time it was buried. If that eye witness ties him to the murder then isn't it possible the eye witness could've done it, being as they were both there.
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Dec 14, 2014 21:35
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bedpan posted:I guess I am frustrated that SK never really makes much of the flaws in the case.  Have you not listened to the podcast? She dedicates entire episodes to the flaws of the case.
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Dec 14, 2014 22:35
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User-Friendly posted:If it snowed that night, the ground probably have frozen and made it so much more difficult to bury her. Which would explain why the grave was only 6 inches deep.
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Dec 14, 2014 22:35
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Mr. Flunchy posted:It's always seemed to me that Koenig is consciously presenting herself as a representative of the audience's suspicions and emotions at various points in the case progresses. In the early episodes we're as charmed and perplexed by Adnan's niceness and apparent innocence as she was, but as the evidence mounts up our doubts are mounting and we're becoming more wary of Adnan. This is so interesting to me because I'm having the exact opposite experience. I'm undecided on whether Adnan is guilty or not but think Jay had way more to do with the entire thing, if not acting alone.
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Dec 14, 2014 22:42
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DrVenkman posted:If that eye witness ties him to the murder then isn't it possible the eye witness could've done it, being as they were both there. You're talking to the same guy who went on a totally serious rant about millennials earlier in this thread. He's a really, really lovely troll.
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Dec 15, 2014 03:08
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TheJoker138 posted:You're talking to the same guy who went on a totally serious rant about millennials earlier in this thread. He's a really, really lovely troll. If something hurt your feelings hit the report button but please stop losing your composure all over the thread Mr. Comic book guy DrVenkman posted:If that eye witness ties him to the murder then isn't it possible the eye witness could've done it, being as they were both there. Sure, he very well could have been involved, but only with Adnan. He is lucky to say the least
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Dec 15, 2014 08:50
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After all this time, I'm still not entirely convinced that Sarah Koenig really knows what she's doing. Like, I'm really starting to wonder what the purpose of any of this is. I first had that thought when she approached the Innocence Project. She said "My job is not to exonerate Adnan." That led me to wonder, "Okay then, so what is your job?" What is the purpose of this enterprise? Do they even know? Like, that didn't bother me so much back then since I got the impression that all this was leading somewhere. But after the aimlessness of the last episode, I'm no longer sure.
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Dec 15, 2014 09:28
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Show should have only been 6 episodes. Its been mostly navel-gazing filler since. I think this show succeeded in spite of the host, because it featured an interesting case, but they lost their direction.
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Dec 15, 2014 09:32
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