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Met posted:Why does not being strategic make someone a terrible winner? I want the entertaining likable people to win a million dollars. I agree, but they're just talking in terms of strategic masterminds being the best winners. For me Keith would be one of the better winners. Cochran and Tyson were two of the worst winners ever imo, regardless of how great they might have played.
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Dec 14, 2014 18:24
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Keith would pretty much be a less endearing Fabio, the Survivor jury equivalent of mucking your ballot in protest. As it stands none of the idiots remaining deserve to win, but I'll take the comedy option of Keith over the rest given the choice. The only exciting thing about the finale tonight is this abortion of a season is finally over. Hopefully next season bounces back.
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Dec 14, 2014 18:41
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Robnoxious posted:Out of this mix of 5, who do you see as entertaining and likable? Never thought I'd say it after their TAR seasons, but I like and have been entertained by Natalie on this season.
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Dec 14, 2014 19:00
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BGrifter posted:Keith would pretty much be a less endearing Fabio, the Survivor jury equivalent of mucking your ballot in protest. As it stands none of the idiots remaining deserve to win, but I'll take the comedy option of Keith over the rest given the choice.
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Dec 14, 2014 19:13
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Fast Luck posted:Isn't the finale on Wednesday? I think they scrapped the Sunday finale tradition. Yeah, CBS' website is showing that its on Wednesday.
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Dec 14, 2014 19:29
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Fast Luck posted:Isn't the finale on Wednesday? I think they scrapped the Sunday finale tradition. Either that, or they knew what a dud this was going to be and chose to keep the prime Sunday real estate for something that would rake in actual advertising dollars.
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Dec 14, 2014 19:51
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I don't need a winner to be a strategic mastermind. I'm actually a big supporter of someone winning because they were a comp beast or because they played the best social game. Those are all legitimate ways to play and I'll be the first person to shoot down the idea that strategy is the only worthwhile tool or way to play. Keith just hasn't really excelled in anything though. Yes, he's done well in comps but not in a way that has actually affected the game. Yes, he's reasonably well liked but not in some way that indicates a strong social game or not against a group that hate each other. He's just the goofy idiot who is still around because someone thought they could use him and no one is really scared of him. He doesn't have to be a strategic mastermind or comp beast or social master but he's never done anything that really changed the game or even just saved his own rear end at a crucial time. Well, actually he has but instead of it being a key positive move its been Keith bungling something so badly that it changed the game. I don't care if the winner isn't a mastermind. But I would like to be able to say they did SOMETHING well even if it's just Natalie White managing to ride Russell's coat tails because she realizes his one fatal mistake is jury votes so she cleans up after him.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:28
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I wonder if Keith is playing a better social game than is being shown. I mean sure, it's probably not amazing, but I doubt it's terrible either. We had Baylor saying something like, 'You know what, Keith is kind of cool' during the spa reward last week. He seems to be a pretty hard worker around camp and I'm sure as a firefighter he has some cool stories to share. The only person he seemed to have an issue with was Missy, but even that was only a one week thing and then never mentioned again. Otherwise he has gotten along with all the fairly diverse personalities.
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Dec 14, 2014 21:35
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A couple of weeks ago when Jaclyn was upset that the guys ignored her didn't Keith tell Jeff he'd never actually had a conversation with Jax the entire time? I just have a hard time thinking the guy's playing a strong social game when something like that happened. Even the thing this week where Baylor says he's a cool guy. That's on Day 30something. If you haven't showed someone your good side for that long then you're doing something wrong socially, IMO. This was probably just the first time Baylor's spent any real time with Keith where he wasn't telling her to do some work. Keith seems like a nice and funny guy. And when he's relaxing and having a good time at a reward then Baylor sees a very cool side of him. But he doesn't actually seem to have made any kind of proactive effort to befriend people for the game. If anything I've gotten the impression that he really didn't socialize with Jaclyn, Baylor, and maybe Natalie most of the game because he just didn't feel like he had much in common with them. Its been said before that Keith doesn't understand this game and I think that goes right along with the social aspect. He's a good guy so no one dislikes him, but the idea that there are people he's lived with for weeks who he doesn't have any real relationship with is kind of mind blowing to me.
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Dec 14, 2014 21:48
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Is the finale on tonight or something? I thought it was on during their normal airtime now?
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Dec 14, 2014 21:50
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Super Aggro Crag posted:Is the finale on tonight or something? I thought it was on during their normal airtime now? The answer is six posts up. (It's on Wednesday)
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Dec 14, 2014 21:58
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TMMadman posted:I wonder if Keith is playing a better social game than is being shown. I mean sure, it's probably not amazing, but I doubt it's terrible either. We had Baylor saying something like, 'You know what, Keith is kind of cool' during the spa reward last week. He seems to be a pretty hard worker around camp and I'm sure as a firefighter he has some cool stories to share. The only person he seemed to have an issue with was Missy, but even that was only a one week thing and then never mentioned again. Otherwise he has gotten along with all the fairly diverse personalities. I think he's better than he's been given credit in the thread, but one could probably draw parallels between his game and, say, Rupert's: gruff, hardworking, poor social game. What he lacks in Rupert's sense of entitlement, he makes up for with his lack of filter. I don't recall Rupert's track record with challenges (pretty poor, I believe), but Keith has had a solid performance so far. He could emerge as a real dark horse should Natalie not make FTC. Jaclyn's only saving grace is that Missy and Baylor are the only pair remaining; but she'll certainly crumble now that Jon's gone and the rest of the tribe no longer feels compelled to appease her. Missy has no chance of winning this thing, and her leaving the game would be perhaps the greatest boost she could give to Baylor's chances. That said, it would be interesting to see how FTC would play out if by some miracle they both made it there. I don't know how much of a threat the rest of the tribe views Natalie with the J&J show keeping a lot of the heat off her. If she can just hide behind some of those bigger personalities a little while longer, then she'll have this thing.
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Dec 14, 2014 22:37
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STAC Goat posted:A couple of weeks ago when Jaclyn was upset that the guys ignored her didn't Keith tell Jeff he'd never actually had a conversation with Jax the entire time? I just have a hard time thinking the guy's playing a strong social game when something like that happened. Even the thing this week where Baylor says he's a cool guy. That's on Day 30something. If you haven't showed someone your good side for that long then you're doing something wrong socially, IMO. This was probably just the first time Baylor's spent any real time with Keith where he wasn't telling her to do some work. All this is made so much more confusing by the edit (both for Keith specific and for the entire season). We've been simultaneously told Keith is a big threat to win because of his immunity wins and his personal backstory, yet at the same time we're told that he's antisocial and completely inept at the game. One of these stories is probably more manufactured than the other, and it's not entirely clear which (but it's probably the first one). The other problem is a big problem with this season in general-- we're being told about personal relationships rather than seeing them. I think that because it's a Blood vs. Water season, the editors spent so much time showing us the loved one relationships that the other social aspects are being left on the cutting room floor. We've been TOLD in confessionals about how tight Josh and Baylor were, and how close Natalie was with Jeremy, but it feels like we never saw these relationships in action. So with someone like Keith, even though we barely see him talking to anyone besides Wes, it's hard to know if that means anything since we also barely saw the other non-loved one relationships that we know existed.
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Dec 14, 2014 22:38
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Well, like I said, I'm basically forming my opinion based on Keith's own words. He seemed to straight up admit to Jeff that he wasn't socializing with the women because he didn't feel he had anything in common with them. And the comments from women like Jaclyn, Baylor, and Natalie seemed to support the idea that they really don't talk except when he's telling them to work. The lone exception seemed to be Missy who Keith seemed to bond a bit with early on over the parent thing. I think the idea that he's a jury threat is partly because there's so many men in the jury and Keith seemed to be very well liked in the "boy's club". Of course I don't think he's really got some huge contingent of votes in the jury. Wes and maybe Alec, but Josh, Reed, and Jeremy don't seem likely to just vote with him because he's a cool guy. I have no idea about Jon. But I can see why the women would be worried about that considering they've talked about the gender divide in the tribe multiple times. It makes sense for the women to want to make sure its an all women Final 3 so they don't have to worry about that. The other part of "Keith is a jury threat" is probably that Missy, Baylor, Jon, and Jaclyn played such dirty games so they were probably scared about a bitter jury turning to a well liked guy like Keith. And for what its worth I always thought the Jeremy/Natalie relationship shone through pretty well. Their tribe didn't get a lot of tv time early since they were winning every week but once Val and Nadiya went I really saw Jeremy and Natalie bond and almost always work together and have a very natural chemistry. Ghostpilot posted:Jaclyn's only saving grace is that Missy and Baylor are the only pair remaining; but she'll certainly crumble now that Jon's gone and the rest of the tribe no longer feels compelled to appease her. Missy has no chance of winning this thing, and her leaving the game would be perhaps the greatest boost she could give to Baylor's chances. That said, it would be interesting to see how FTC would play out if by some miracle they both made it there. I think Missy could maybe win a similar vote. I think as a viewer I'd give more credit to Baylor than Missy at this stage but I think the jury would go the other way on that because they don't see the private stuff. And Missy's made a lot of moves and played a proactive game much of the way. And she's lucky that the jury most likely won't know she was willing to throw her game away for Jon. I think Jeremy, Natalie, Josh, and Reed will all vote strategically and considering the relationship she apparently has with Jon I could see her beating out Baylor, Keith, or Jaclyn (obviously she wouldn't be getting Jon's vote there) in a divided vote. I HOPE that if Natalie makes the F3 she's a lock. But if someone is smart enough to take her out I really think its just four bad options that could go any way.
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Dec 14, 2014 23:16
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Ghostpilot posted:I think he's better than he's been given credit in the thread, but one could probably draw parallels between his game and, say, Rupert's: gruff, hardworking, poor social game. What he lacks in Rupert's sense of entitlement, he makes up for with his lack of filter. I don't recall Rupert's track record with challenges (pretty poor, I believe), but Keith has had a solid performance so far. He could emerge as a real dark horse should Natalie not make FTC. You conveniently ignore the part of Keith's pedigree that will keep him from winning: his poor understanding of the game. None of Reed, Josh nor Jeremy is very likely to vote for him. He screwed up Reed's excellent plan that would have put himself in a really strong position, managing to lose his son and idol in the process. He lost all good faith with Jeremy pre-merge. I think Jon respected the move against him, so expect him to vote a former ally not Keith. Keith has actually had a very bad performance and just because he's an enjoyable dude doesn't mean his huge negative plays in the game should be ignored. A win scenario for him is maybe with Missy and Jac, but I also think that's one of the scenarios where Missy could win, because Keith's that bad. quote:Jaclyn's only saving grace is that Missy and Baylor are the only pair remaining; but she'll certainly crumble now that Jon's gone and the rest of the tribe no longer feels compelled to appease her. Missy has no chance of winning this thing, and her leaving the game would be perhaps the greatest boost she could give to Baylor's chances. That said, it would be interesting to see how FTC would play out if by some miracle they both made it there. I think the Baylor/Missy and Jon/Jaclyn games reflect the two different possibilities for what to do as a couple endgame. I've argued that Baylor and Missy's best chances are as a couple, while Jon and Jaclyn (in a scenario where they both got this far) would be better jury-ing Jaclyn. There's no clear 'better' choice as a couple, because your relative position to the remaining field (and the jury) are important elements when you do have to make the decision. It would be interesting to see someone make the argument at jury, that they had sacrificed a love on not simply to go further, but to game the vote, and to see if it would be respected as a valid move.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:27
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I agree people are kind of overhyping Keith's jury appeal. I don't think he was actually buddies with anyone in the game except Wes and probably Alec. Reed? Josh? Jon? Jaclyn? Jeremy? Do any of those people actually like Keith? Not to mention Missy and Baylor.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:40
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Natalie doesn't really strike me as a bitter juror. I know she swore vengeance for Jeremy and lashed out against Rocker after Nadiya went but both moves made strategic sense. And she had no problem working with the people who backstabbed her until the time came to strike against Jon. She even saved him that one time. Push comes to shove I think she'd vote strategic. Then again if she's in the jury than there's no obvious strategic vote to make.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:41
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STAC Goat posted:Natalie doesn't really strike me as a bitter juror. I know she swore vengeance for Jeremy and lashed out against Rocker after Nadiya went but both moves made strategic sense. And she had no problem working with the people who backstabbed her until the time came to strike against Jon. She even saved him that one time. Well, Baylor, who will had to have put her there. Baylor's game is pretty good (for this season), considering what she had to survive early game, She only flew under the radar once she went with her mom's group. And then got out of it at just about the right time. A ton of the credit will go to other people, but if she and her mom do flip on Natalie (if even given a chance) it might put her over the top. And that's where Natalie could be 'bitter' by voting Keith/Jac over Baylor/Missy. I like Natalie just fine, but she's not perfect and it's hard to tell how personally she'd take a move against her at this point. At could also be a non-factor, obviously. Fast Luck posted:I agree people are kind of overhyping Keith's jury appeal. I don't think he was actually buddies with anyone in the game except Wes and probably Alec. Reed? Josh? Jon? Jaclyn? Jeremy? Do any of those people actually like Keith? Not to mention Missy and Baylor. I think Josh and Jeremy (at least very early on) both liked Keith as a person, maybe Reed as well. But those are all dudes likely to vote on game play which is not going to help him. Milovan Drecun fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 02:53
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Milovan Drecun posted:I think Josh and Jeremy (at least very early on) both liked Keith as a person, maybe Reed as well. But those are all dudes like to vote on game play which is not going to help him. At Ponderosa Jeremy was talking up people actually playing the game and making moves a whole lot. I do not think he'd go Keith at all.
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Dec 15, 2014 02:56
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Based on the Ponderosa videos, I can't see Jeremy voting anyway but bitterly. Jeremy has zero respect for anyone in the game outside of Natalie. If Jeremy was so flippin brilliant and a master strategist how come he's on the outside looking in?
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Dec 15, 2014 03:13
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Milovan Drecun posted:
On his RHAP interview Reed seemed to like Keith and had a sense of humor about "stick to the plan", so you're most likely right about his jury career. I think Jaclyn is the best goat left in the game. The jury's probably not going to give her much credit strategy wise and she also has plenty to be targeted for by a bitter jury.
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Dec 15, 2014 03:16
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Milovan Drecun posted:I think Josh and Jeremy (at least very early on) both liked Keith as a person, maybe Reed as well. But those are all dudes likely to vote on game play which is not going to help him.
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Dec 15, 2014 03:17
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Robnoxious posted:Based on the Ponderosa videos, I can't see Jeremy voting anyway but bitterly. Jeremy has zero respect for anyone in the game outside of Natalie. If Jeremy was so flippin brilliant and a master strategist how come he's on the outside looking in? Jeremy's not wrong. Everyone playing (besides Natalie) are idiots. We've been saying exactly that. It might be obnoxious for Jeremy to say it but he's not wrong. You can't really be making the argument that Keith is a smarter player because he lasted longer. That's not how the game works. RHAP mentioned that on their last recap, I think, basically in this exact way. One of them mocked Jeremy for his ego and outbursts but then they pointed out that Jeremy was right. These people ARE playing like idiots. Note, I haven't watched the Ponderosa videos so I have no idea if Jeremy's been extra bitter or something. But it doesn't shock me to hear he's ripping everyone's games. So are we. Milovan Drecun posted:Well, Baylor, who will had to have put her there. Baylor's game is pretty good (for this season), considering what she had to survive early game, She only flew under the radar once she went with her mom's group. And then got out of it at just about the right time. A ton of the credit will go to other people, but if she and her mom do flip on Natalie (if even given a chance) it might put her over the top. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 03:39
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Fast Luck posted:I think Jeremy got pretty pissed at Keith after the idol thing though. I think Keith burned that bridge. Yea, that's what I meant about early on, when they were on exile together. Keith was likable but game play decisions (like outing Jeremy for an idol he didn't have) were mistakes that will be used as reasons not to vote for him.
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Dec 15, 2014 04:12
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I like Keith quite a bit but you can't be that unintentionally harmful to your own allies in key situations and likely win. If he revealed he was a mastermind or something maybe I'd vote for him then.
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Dec 15, 2014 05:38
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Fast Luck posted:I agree people are kind of overhyping Keith's jury appeal. I don't think he was actually buddies with anyone in the game except Wes and probably Alec. Reed? Josh? Jon? Jaclyn? Jeremy? Do any of those people actually like Keith? Not to mention Missy and Baylor. If he goes to the end without Natalie he wins imo
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Dec 15, 2014 06:15
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Commercial spoiler They announced there will be one blindside in the finale, which has to be Natalie at f4, as Keith and Jaclyn both would expect to get voted out. I think Baylor/Missy/Natalie are more scared of Keith as a "challenge beast" so he probably goes f5, which means your winner of Survivor San Juan del Sur is Jaclyn "I'm on permanent birth control" Schultz. As for the questsion if she deserves to win? Well, I think Ken Raskoff said it best in his recent RHAP interview (he worked in casting for the longest time) that the game always produces the right winner for the season.
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Dec 15, 2014 12:31
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TMMadman posted:I wonder if Keith is playing a better social game than is being shown. I mean sure, it's probably not amazing, but I doubt it's terrible either. We had Baylor saying something like, 'You know what, Keith is kind of cool' during the spa reward last week. He seems to be a pretty hard worker around camp and I'm sure as a firefighter he has some cool stories to share. The only person he seemed to have an issue with was Missy, but even that was only a one week thing and then never mentioned again. Otherwise he has gotten along with all the fairly diverse personalities. I am 100% certain that Keith doesn't have a great social game because Keith doesn't have a game. He's just out there on an island hanging out, doing some contests occasionally, and doing whatever he's told. Keith is the realest survivor because he isn't playing Survivor.
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Dec 15, 2014 17:09
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GaussianCopula posted:Commercial spoiler They announced there will be one blindside in the finale, which has to be Natalie at f4, as Keith and Jaclyn both would expect to get voted out. I think Baylor/Missy/Natalie are more scared of Keith as a "challenge beast" so he probably goes f5, which means your winner of Survivor San Juan del Sur is Jaclyn "I'm on permanent birth control" Schultz. Oh God, I think you're right about that preview meaning that Natalie is out at F4. That really gives me a strong feeling that Keith is actually going to win this thing
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Dec 15, 2014 17:19
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I hope there's a final two and Missy wins immunity and chooses a man over her daughter again and Keith wins
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Dec 15, 2014 18:54
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sportsgenius86 posted:I hope there's a final two and Missy wins immunity and chooses a man over her daughter again and Keith wins Muffin is a co-dependant trainwreck.
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Dec 15, 2014 19:00
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GaussianCopula posted:Commercial spoiler They announced there will be one blindside in the finale, which has to be Natalie at f4, as Keith and Jaclyn both would expect to get voted out. I think Baylor/Missy/Natalie are more scared of Keith as a "challenge beast" so he probably goes f5, which means your winner of Survivor San Juan del Sur is Jaclyn "I'm on permanent birth control" Schultz. Pretty sure CBS plays fast and loose with the term #Blindside
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Dec 16, 2014 03:54
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#blindside Mercaptopropyl posted:Pretty sure CBS plays fast and loose with the term #Blindside
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Dec 16, 2014 04:18
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The shock of the season for me is the fact that the Ponderosa videos have been better and more interesting than all of the actual episodes.
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Dec 16, 2014 05:33
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Rick posted:I like Keith quite a bit but you can't be that unintentionally harmful to your own allies in key situations and likely win. If he revealed he was a mastermind or something maybe I'd vote for him then. How hilarious was it last episode where Natalie was coaching him on not screwing up tribal, then he was trying so hard to not screw up that he just blurted his lines out to Jeff without even being asked a question 
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Dec 16, 2014 05:47
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Mercaptopropyl posted:Pretty sure CBS plays fast and loose with the term #Blindside At this point it just means "someone voted out".
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Dec 16, 2014 05:52
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Smorgasbord posted:How hilarious was it last episode where Natalie was coaching him on not screwing up tribal, then he was trying so hard to not screw up that he just blurted his lines out to Jeff without even being asked a question
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Dec 16, 2014 06:02
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I can not believe people are praising baylors game in this thread. Or anyone's game. It is ok to have no good winner, which is our only option now.
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Dec 16, 2014 12:24
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Bigass Moth posted:I can not believe people are praising baylors game in this thread. Or anyone's game. It is ok to have no good winner, which is our only option now. This is great because you don't really make any argument, just bgrifter-esque angst. A few people have liked this season but almost everyone seems to recognize the bad level of play. I add things like 'relative to the field' to indicate this, but you can probably work on the assumption that people are discussing things just from the perspective of this season. Even among a bunch of bad games, there are tiers and separation among the players. Milovan Drecun fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 15:58
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Yeah, by this season's standards, if you take out Natalie, Baylor has probably the strongest game. That said, that's very much a "in the land of blind men..." situation.
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Dec 16, 2014 16:08
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