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Elotana posted:I have a biglaw interview How many figures is your book?
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Dec 13, 2014 20:06
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Why are there so few of you in this thread in house counsel? Is this not a possible exit opportunity for a lawyer in the US? Its very common here in France. Does not pay as much as lawfirm but much more livable in the long run (you can take your vacation, 40/50 hours weeks, no billables, etc).
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Dec 13, 2014 21:41
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Macnigore posted:Why are there so few of you in this thread in house counsel? Is this not a possible exit opportunity for a lawyer in the US? No, there's quite a few of those as well (just maybe not in this thread...maybe Goons just love patent and litigation?) A lot of the junior associates from my old firm made nice nice with some of our clients and then bailed to go be their general counsel. Already familiar with the client, cost the client less, associate got paid more. Everybody wins!
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Dec 13, 2014 21:52
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Macnigore posted:Why are there so few of you in this thread in house counsel? Is this not a possible exit opportunity for a lawyer in the US? A lot of people are in house counsel, but they tend to be a bit quieter about their work since it's less ridiculous.
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Dec 14, 2014 07:44
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Macnigore posted:Why are there so few of you in this thread in house counsel? Is this not a possible exit opportunity for a lawyer in the US? Getting an in-house job in the US usually requires going through big-law, or at least medium-law, and having enough client contact to make the move. Extremely rare to jump in-house before getting a few years of experience in a firm. So while we may get some beautiful in-house butterflies in a few years, most have just recently pupated.
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Dec 14, 2014 12:30
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From what I can see lately, in-house is getting bludgeoned about as badly as private practice. I mean, they might work a bit less and have slightly better lives, but that seem to mean only working 58 hour weeks instead of 60 hour weeks on average. Or at least the ones I talk to seem pretty freaking miserable. On top of that, you are "captive" in-house in a way that you are not in private practice. Think being an associate having to cowtow and constantly respond to partner demands sucks? At least that goes away to some degree as you get older. A lot of the in-house guys I work with, even the older ones, basically just seem to live days of being yelled at by sales reps, etc. for not having the contract done in 30 minutes, etc. Seriously, if I were in-house, I think I would honestly slit the throats of about 95% of the sales reps in my company. I loving hate sales reps, and as outside counsel, I have to deal with them about 5% as much as in-house people do.
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Dec 14, 2014 17:28
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How much of the extremely dire OP applies to people who actually want to be public defenders as a first choice? And if I already know I want to do public interest, should I still aim for T14 or would I be better served by going to a school that emphasizes public law? Also, is there a specific narrative older candidates should try to avoid when applying? I've basically spent the last five years after college bumming around and getting into trouble: should I go for a Paul on the road to Damascus story, or just try to shore up my CV and make it look as respectable as possible?
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Dec 14, 2014 18:45
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Smerdyakov posted:How much of the extremely dire OP applies to people who actually want to be public defenders as a first choice? And if I already know I want to do public interest, should I still aim for T14 or would I be better served by going to a school that emphasizes public law? What do you think PD do?
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Dec 14, 2014 19:11
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There are tons of idealistic types who want to be public defenders so the competition for those spots is incredibly fierce.
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Dec 14, 2014 19:22
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The panhandling skills that you learned as a bum would likely serve you well if the PD stuff doesn't work out.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:30
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Public interest jobs are just as competitive as other jobs, in their own way. There are tons of applicants for every PD spot, especially if you want to live in a city instead of rural Alaska or some poo poo. Unless it's CUNY, no lower ranked school has a reputation for public interest law that even slightly weighs against its low ranking.
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Dec 14, 2014 21:04
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Mind you, not all PD jobs are formal employees of the state or county; in many places experienced attorneys get put on a list and have cases handed to them by the court. Of course, getting to be an "experienced attorney" is an issue, but probably in some places (Texas, Louisiana) the quality is notoriously low, so it shouldn't be to hard to show minimum competence.
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Dec 14, 2014 21:14
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Roger_Mudd posted:What do you think PD do? Based on having hung out with a few friends that are public defenders (in NY and CO, if those are representative) and asking them about their work, gone to court and watched them work through their docket, talking to an uncle that was a PD back in the day and went private 25 years ago, and done mock trial as an undergraduate, I I feel like I have an ok grasp on what the workflow involves. That said, some cities/states seem to actually care about providing them with resources, and some places seem to really go out of their way to make sure anyone who can't afford representation gets hosed. And I was actually specifically thinking CUNY, though I know a few people that got really high scores and perfect GPAs went there and still got no scholarships/6 figures of debt.
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Dec 14, 2014 21:50
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If you want to be a PD, either go to a T14 school and pray that PSLF actually gets funded, or go to a school that gives you a full ride in the area you want to work in and intern for the PDs there every summer. I would recommend the latter option. PDs care a lot more about your dedication that your education, and if you've worked there before you apply you get a good headstart. And if you went to a super cheap school you aren't chained to it.
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Dec 14, 2014 21:56
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Smerdyakov posted:some places seem to really go out of their way to make sure anyone who can't afford representation gets hosed. Curb that kind of talk, for starters. In my experience, the good PD offices don't want true believers, they want lawyers. Lawyers who are aggressive and will go to the mat for the client, sure, but someone who goes in with the attitude that "the man" is out to get them generally isn't as effective as someone who just works the case, especially since "the man" tends to have more power, ability to approve pleas etc etc, so they want someone who can aggressively fight at trial, but not be a complete anti-social sperglord in pre-trials. Given that most of your clients will be guilty, and most will have a lot of evidence to prove it, and most will have pesky things like "prior records" that make them not so sympathetic, a plea deal is often in their best interests, and the ones who tend to get the best deals are the ones who are able to treat it as a job, not a cause. One of the private attorneys here, who has more ineffective assistance claims and substantiated grievances than most, gets amazing deals for his clients because he's just so goddamn reasonable and likeable. In that vein, also, yes, definitely intern with a PD office, to get your name and face out there, but also do "other things" as well. This goes for both PD and Prosecutor, but at least here, the person who goes into the interview with the "This is all I've ever wanted to be" posture usually gets passed over from someone a little more well-rounded. No one wants a brand new lawyer who thinks their life is going to be an episode of Law and Order or the Practice. You may want to consider doing a year or two in another job before applying to the PD to show you're competent. Also, remember...lovely economy. Governemnt jobs are steady pay and good bennnies. You are not just competing with people who want to be PDs...you are competing with people who want to eat. Also, yeah, most states have "special public defenders" who are private contractors who take cases when the PD office is either too swamped, or conflicted out. Get on that list. (Of course, our state hires PDs via an independent commission (and prosecutors too) so we are a little weird in that respect) Oh, and don't ever say that doing undergraduate moot court has prepared you for criminal law. It's like going pro se and telling the judge you know what you're doing because you watch Judge Judy.
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Dec 14, 2014 23:15
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Smerdyakov posted:Based on having hung out with a few friends that are public defenders (in NY and CO, if those are representative) and asking them about their work, gone to court and watched them work through their docket, talking to an uncle that was a PD back in the day and went private 25 years ago, and done mock trial as an undergraduate, I I feel like I have an ok grasp on what the workflow involves. That said, some cities/states seem to actually care about providing them with resources, and some places seem to really go out of their way to make sure anyone who can't afford representation gets hosed. What are your stats?
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Dec 15, 2014 00:27
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ActusRhesus posted:Curb that kind of talk, for starters. In my experience, the good PD offices don't want true believers, they want lawyers. Lawyers who are aggressive and will go to the mat for the client, sure, but someone who goes in with the attitude that "the man" is out to get them generally isn't as effective as someone who just works the case, especially since "the man" tends to have more power, ability to approve pleas etc etc, so they want someone who can aggressively fight at trial, but not be a complete anti-social sperglord in pre-trials. Given that most of your clients will be guilty, and most will have a lot of evidence to prove it, and most will have pesky things like "prior records" that make them not so sympathetic, a plea deal is often in their best interests, and the ones who tend to get the best deals are the ones who are able to treat it as a job, not a cause. One of the private attorneys here, who has more ineffective assistance claims and substantiated grievances than most, gets amazing deals for his clients because he's just so goddamn reasonable and likeable. In that vein, also, yes, definitely intern with a PD office, to get your name and face out there, but also do "other things" as well. This goes for both PD and Prosecutor, but at least here, the person who goes into the interview with the "This is all I've ever wanted to be" posture usually gets passed over from someone a little more well-rounded. No one wants a brand new lawyer who thinks their life is going to be an episode of Law and Order or the Practice. You may want to consider doing a year or two in another job before applying to the PD to show you're competent. Also, remember...lovely economy. Governemnt jobs are steady pay and good bennnies. You are not just competing with people who want to be PDs...you are competing with people who want to eat. This is some of the best advice in the thread. Just be cool with people and poo poo will work out.
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Dec 15, 2014 00:37
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And if you look at a PD agency and think they're part of the problem, don't work there, duh.
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Dec 15, 2014 00:47
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SlothBear posted:If you want to be a PD, either go to a T14 school and pray that PSLF actually gets funded, or go to a school that gives you a full ride in the area you want to work in and intern for the PDs there every summer. I would recommend the latter option. PDs care a lot more about your dedication that your education, and if you've worked there before you apply you get a good headstart. And if you went to a super cheap school you aren't chained to it. What do you mean by hope PSLF gets funded? The first round of forgiveness should be in a few years shouldn't it
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Dec 15, 2014 00:52
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ActusRhesus posted:Curb that kind of talk, for starters. In my experience, the good PD offices don't want true believers, they want lawyers. Lawyers who are aggressive and will go to the mat for the client, sure, but someone who goes in with the attitude that "the man" is out to get them generally isn't as effective as someone who just works the case, especially since "the man" tends to have more power, ability to approve pleas etc etc, so they want someone who can aggressively fight at trial, but not be a complete anti-social sperglord in pre-trials. I take your point, but it seems like basic realism. It's not fun to be stuck in an office where there's one investigator split between 5 attorneys and some of the clerks don't even bother to read the case law. All questions of justice aside, it sucks to work there, having seen it firsthand. Are you saying there's a nationwide standard of excellence in PD offices and anyone who thinks otherwise is considered a fanatic and won't be hired where you practice? Where do you practice, if you don't mind me asking? Obviously you have to work with the local DA and the relationship is professional rather than antagonistic, but prosecutors pull bullshit from time to time and the degree of bullshit varies wildly from place to place. Looking at what you said, this might just be your generic bitter rant rather than anything directed at me, but if people making the hiring decisions are that easy to set off, what are some trigger words to avoid? I'm stuck in a lodge with a half-dozen public defenders right now and only one of them didn't go to work for the PD office right after law school. It seems like answers do vary a lot from place to place, so some geographically specific input might be more useful. It seems like it's better to pick the place I'd want to practice before I start, but what if I (say) go to CUNY and decide I want to practice in (say) Minnesota? Would I be better off trying to go to a school in-state if I know for sure what state I want to be in? Hot Dog Day #91 posted:What are your stats? Undergraduate didn't do grades on a translatable GPA scale, took LSAT once and got a 161, but with minimal studying. Smerdyakov fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 00:53
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http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/i-am-an-artisanal-attorneyI Am An Artisanal Attorney posted:Are you tired of large corporate law firms making the same cookie cutter litigation? Do you fondly remember a time when quality mattered in law suits, when there was art and craftsmanship in every court motion filed, when company records were drafted using the traditional methods and tools? If you have become dissatisfied with mass-produced legal representation, stop by my scriveners shop; for I am an artisanal attorney.
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Dec 15, 2014 01:03
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mastershakeman posted:What do you mean by hope PSLF gets funded? The first round of forgiveness should be in a few years shouldn't it Bolded the important part.
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Dec 15, 2014 01:19
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Smerdyakov posted:All questions of justice aside, it sucks to work there, having seen it firsthand. I would leave this part out when interviewing.
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Dec 15, 2014 01:26
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People who say "I want to be a Public Defender" invariably mean, "I want everyone to think I want to be a Public Defender."
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Dec 15, 2014 02:17
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Smerdyakov posted:this might just be your generic bitter rant rather than anything directed at me, but if people making the hiring decisions are that easy to set off, what are some trigger words to avoid? Pro Tip: If you want advice from people, don't refer to previous advice as a bitter rant. .2 hours mentoring. Also, you say you spent 5 years "bumming around and getting into trouble" what kind of trouble, because that might impact your chances of getting into a PD office as well. See Jesse Pinkman on criminal lawyers vs. "criminal lawyers" and there's background checks for pretty much all state service. Now, the good news is, once you get into the state system, you can gently caress up pretty badly and not be fired but for reasons stated below about the number of applicants for these jobs, if there's an easy reason to throw your resume out from the get go, like criminal history, good luck passing HR. As to the rest of your points: Smerdyakov posted:I take your point, but it seems like basic realism. It's not fun to be stuck in an office where there's one investigator split between 5 attorneys and some of the clerks don't even bother to read the case law. Yeah...Hi. So, how many investigators do you think the prosecution has? We have 5 for an office of 15 that handles capital cases. Sure, that's a better ratio than 5:1, but we also have the burden of proof. (And really, investigators don't "investigate" so much as they serve subpoenas and pick up poo poo from the police departments for us, which we are then required to copy for the defense.) As for clerks not reading case law...what clerks are you talking about? quote:All questions of justice aside, it sucks to work there, having seen it firsthand. First hand from your extensive moot court experience? quote:Are you saying there's a nationwide standard of excellence in PD offices and anyone who thinks otherwise is considered a fanatic and won't be hired where you practice? Are you saying you don't think there's a high standard of competence in public defenders? If so, that's another thing I'd not mention in interview. quote:Where do you practice, if you don't mind me asking? I mind. quote:Obviously you have to work with the local DA and the relationship is professional rather than antagonistic, but prosecutors pull bullshit from time to time and the degree of bullshit varies wildly from place to place.  quote:I'm stuck in a lodge with a half-dozen public defenders right now Hey Phil...source material for your next novella. ActusRhesus fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 02:27
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As a public defender in California. 1. Don't go to law school. 2. We want both true believers and good lawyers in one package. Which we can get because we have hundreds of people applying for every vacancy. You have to be a true believer to not kill yourself. True believer means you believe you job is to make the state do everything right before they put someone in prison -- not walk your client. 3. It is grueling, thankless work. Co-Worker just walked a guy charged with murder, and she hasn't even gotten a thank you. You finish one case just to be presented 100 equally hosed up cases who wonder why you don't visit them at the jail every day. 4. Moot court. Ha! 5. You have to be ok with losing, because you will lose a lot. 6. Hardest thing to realize is you are not responsible for the facts you get, but you got to deal with them. So your client is on video loving a horse? Can you present a non-IAC defense without laughing while still knowing your client will lose? 7. Bullshit politics. Most offices care way to much about numbers and your bosses would prefer you lose a trial than get a case dismissed even if they won't say it out loud. This may only apply to California government employed PDs. This is because we justify much of our funding based on trial numbers. Also, while individual DAs can be good or terrible people, the politics in their offices make deal with them like banging your head against a wall. 8. The job is amazingly stressful, especially if you aren't great at dealing with this particular stress. There is a major difference between "if I gently caress up, I can't get into a good school" and "if I gently caress up, this guy is going to prison for life." Do not under-estimate it or discount it, it is nothing like anything you have experienced in your life until now. There's a reason that even for lawyers, criminal defense attorneys drink and do drugs at an amazing rate. 9. Don't go to law school. 10. Being a government lawyer is going to be less and less "lucrative" as time goes on. "Why are my public servants making anything more than minimum wage! They serve me!" The good thing is that defense attorneys have the best stories, and PDs are the coolest lawyers. We have good parties, only a few douche bags (they get weeded out), and will give each other the clothes off our back. In California, the pay is tied to DAs, so pay is fine. We have decent benefits, lots of vacation, and a pension. However, pay is stagnating and the pension is under constant attack. Also, if you want to be a criminal attorney of any type, the best way to do it is to go through a public defender's office. You'll get experience. Lots of people go through DA's offices, but you learn a different skill set there, and most, but certainly not all, ex-DA criminal defense attorneys are underwhelming. Bad news. We had like 900 people apply for 3 vacancies, even in the recovering market. The formula to get hired is unpredictable and is really random. Big offices like San Francisco, Alameda, LA, etc care where you went to law school. You will be expected to have trial experience before you get hired. This will almost certainly mean you have to work for free for a while to get that. You are almost required to have volunteered for a PD office. Bonus if it is the one you are applying to. It can help if you go to school near were you want to work. You cannot be picky. You're probably go to get a job with some inland county. Many PDs start in the IE or the central valley and may later apply to coastal counties. Some counties (San Diego and San Francisco) basically require that you work for free for them before they will consider hiring you. Basically no one will hire you before you pass the bar. Notice all the working for free? Hope your parents can help you out for a year after graduation, because you can't work at starbucks and be a full time attorney volunteer!
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Dec 15, 2014 02:50
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nm posted:2. We want both true believers and good lawyers in one package. Which we can get because we have hundreds of people applying for every vacancy. You have to be a true believer to not kill yourself. True believer means you believe you job is to make the state do everything right before they put someone in prison -- not walk your client. Yeah, I think I was not as clear as I could have been there on what I meant by "true believer" said with air quotes and a heavy dose of sarcasm. To me, (and the other prosecutors who routinely use it as a pejorative) "true believer" is the "lurking behind every prosecutor is an intentional brady violation waiting to happen, and this country is fascist and all my clients are innocent" type who takes every case extremely personally...they tend to get bitter, fast. I don't consider someone who recognizes we have a constitution, believes in the right to a fair trial, and forces the state to its burden when appropriate, and negotiates when appropriate, a "True believer." That's more "being a good lawyer." Edited to add, some time ago, I also did defense work. Your point on the stress of defense work is spot on. Everyone thinks "oh I would love to defend an innocent person." No. No you wouldn't. That's the only time you can personally be responsible for an injustice and the pressure is phenomenal. With a guilty client, (assuming no prosecutorial misconduct or shenanigans) if convicted, justice done because they were guilty. If acquitted, justice done because state didn't prove its case. If plea dealed, justice done because everyone's in agreement. If innocent and convicted? gently caress. PS...you left out the fun of the inevitable ineffective assistance habeas claim and grievances. ActusRhesus fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 02:55
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ActusRhesus posted:
The good news is that in CA, your basically have you be drunk, sleeping with the DA, insult the jurors' moms, AND admit it on the record to be IAC. And the bar don't care. Oh and I will take 500 guilty clients over 1 innocent client. Innocent people cases are the most stressful poo poo on earth. I don't always find pleas pleasant though. Advising someone who might be innocent to plea to a charge to avoid lifetime sex offender registration, for example, sucks. But yeah, less stressful than an innocent person trial. nm fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 03:17
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nm posted:The good news is that in CA, your basically have you be drunk, sleeping with the DA, insult the jurors' moms, AND admit it on the record to be IAC. And the bar don't care. Sex assault cases are just the worst for everyone involved. Will take a murder case over a rape case any day of the week. It's a high bar here too on IAC (and also, bar don't care) but we had the brilliant idea to give extremely expansive habeas rights, including a right to multiple habeas petitions, an extremely narrow interpretation of "abuse of the writ" and "successive petitions" and the right to a full evidentiary hearing on each petition...so you, defense counsel, will have to be dragged away from whatever more important poo poo you were working on, to drive to the rear end end of nowhere to the one court we run all our habeas trials out of, to get monday morning quarterbacked by a member of the young lawyers section of the bar who's been out of law school five minutes and now works at one of our few approved habeas puppy mill firms, only to have I or one of my colleagues for the state get up on cross and ask "NM, you've been an attorney for how many years? And in those years you've had to develop litigation strategies, correct? And did you have a strategic reason for not doing X in this case? And what was that reason? Thank you no more questions." And if that fails, there's always "lack of prejudice. But still...it's a huge waste of your time, (not my time, because it's my job to be there...but your job is to be doing something else.) Then your client can bring another claim against his habeas attorney claiming that HE was ineffective for not making better arguments about why YOU were ineffective, and you'll get dragged up to testify again. We are so broken. We are broken to the point where we have started raising the special defense of laches...and winning.
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Dec 15, 2014 03:30
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mastershakeman posted:What do you mean by hope PSLF gets funded? The first round of forgiveness should be in a few years shouldn't it And it will probably be about as easy to get PSLF as it was to get HAMP.
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Dec 15, 2014 11:27
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ActusRhesus posted:Pro Tip: If you want advice from people, don't refer to previous advice as a bitter rant. But it worked! P.S. Where do you practice
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Dec 15, 2014 18:47
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Smerdyakov posted:But it worked! 
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Dec 15, 2014 18:52
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Smerdyakov posted:P.S. Where do you practice with your mom. nm posted:Don't go to law school. ActusRhesus fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 18:59
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Based on his rap sheet, not reading is kinda his thing.
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Dec 15, 2014 19:06
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Folly posted:Based on his rap sheet, not reading is kinda his thing. *clicks on rap sheet tab* "Approved by Vilerat"  everytime the name pops up it makes me sad...which reminds me that I'm human. Which I hate.
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Dec 15, 2014 19:13
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I want to be a lawyer because I love to argue! 
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Dec 15, 2014 20:15
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I feed my self-esteem monster with little white lies that people I perceive as higher-esteemed than myself are only a declaration of intent away from being my peers!
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Dec 15, 2014 20:18
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blarzgh posted:I want to be a lawyer because I love to argue! Recently had someone tell me that she could have been just as good a lawyer as I am if she had gone to law school because everyone (her dad) tells her how good she is at arguing. About a week after this conversation, she was involuntarily committed to an insane asylum.
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Dec 15, 2014 20:19
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I'm probably smarter than most lawyers, I just didn't go to school for it, or pass the bar, or do any of the tens of thousands of hours of hard work and sacrifice.
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Dec 15, 2014 20:21
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How I feel about myself is directly tied to what I think about what other people think of me, so I'm going to be totally passive-aggressive to some successful people and, in my head, convince myself that they are probably really surprised at how smart and valuable I am. They think I'm such a diamond in the rough! I AM! :Alladin:
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Dec 15, 2014 20:23
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