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Wanderer posted:That'd be an interesting plot hook for your first game: undoing decades of misinformation by trying to conclusively figure out who did kill Alan Turing. It's fairly obvious from historical context that something hinky happened there. My personal explanation would likely be someone engineering a schism between the Virtual Adepts and the Technocracy. The kind of thing I'd be happy to lay at the Technocracy's feet would be MKULTRA and the Tuskeegee experiments. quote:Yeah, the whole Two-Fisted Tales of Pulp Action! thing you get with the Sons of Ether is way, way more attractive to me than any amount of steampunk batshittery. Fair enough, but my setting and system of choice for pulp action is Eberron, not WoD old or new.
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Dec 16, 2014 03:35
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Cythereal posted:Steampunk doesn't do it for me, sorry. Both Doc Savage and The Shadow are acceptable SoE characters, as is Sandman (the dude with the gas guns) and Hourman. So's Antman and Iron Man. And James Bond. Plus, they slipped in quantum theory in to the Concensus as a final "gently caress you!" to the Union before leaving.
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Dec 16, 2014 03:38
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citybeatnik posted:Both Doc Savage and The Shadow are acceptable SoE characters, as is Sandman (the dude with the gas guns) and Hourman. So's Antman and Iron Man. And James Bond. And I suspect all of that could just as easily fit into the Technocracy. The Traditions just annoy the poo poo out of me in general. They feel like people with terrible ideas going about them fairly well and benevolently. The Technocracy feels to me like people with great ideas but riddled with institutional flaws and corrupt personnel. That and everything I've read about the Traditions in their own books makes them and their authors feel insufferable about sticking it to The Man(tm). Wouldn't be that hard to eliminate quantum theory from the consensus anyway. Even in real life that poo poo is weird and nonsensical. Couldn't be that hard to go "Nope, turns out we were misunderstanding something more basic."
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Dec 16, 2014 03:44
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Cythereal posted:That and everything I've read about the Traditions in their own books makes them and their authors feel insufferable about sticking it to The Man(tm). That's like over half the oWoD books regardless of line, it gets pretty insufferable
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Dec 16, 2014 04:15
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Robindaybird posted:That's like over half the oWoD books regardless of line, it gets pretty insufferable To White Wolf/Onyx Path's credit, they made things a whole lot less insufferable later on.
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Dec 16, 2014 04:18
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Cythereal posted:And I suspect all of that could just as easily fit into the Technocracy. The Traditions just annoy the poo poo out of me in general. They feel like people with terrible ideas going about them fairly well and benevolently. The Technocracy feels to me like people with great ideas but riddled with institutional flaws and corrupt personnel. I could go either way on it, but if you're playing a Technocracy agent and you don't have some very real problems with the way it goes about its business, you're not really paying attention. The newer Convention books make them look a little more benevolent than they used to (although the New World Order is still really creepy), and the Void Engineers are practically a tenth Tradition by comparison, but the old sickness is still very much there. The Traditions, on the other hand, are difficult to generalize about. The reason the game focuses on them as much as it does is because, much as with the first couple of editions of Vampire, the idea behind Mage is to really get into your character's head, which is half the point of Western magic as a discipline to begin with. In their own way, each of the Traditions embodies one of the types of emotional, illogical behavior that makes us human, which makes them a natural foil to the whole Swiss-watch grayscale feel of the Technocracy. The Traditions are wrapped up in the messy, brutal, often fun parts of life; the Technocracy is about making sure the rest of it works out according to plan.
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Dec 16, 2014 04:22
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The lore posts are my favorite part of these threads. Cybernetic space wizards, hobo werewolves riding around in magical General Lee totems, luchador nosferatu, and robot angels targeting the minions of a surprisingly benevolent Lucifer -- man, WoD was pretty damned awesome.  Except for Changeling: The NO, gently caress YOU DAD!ening. That poo poo sounds awful regardless of the old or new generation.
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Dec 16, 2014 04:23
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citybeatnik posted:Both Doc Savage and The Shadow are acceptable SoE characters, as is Sandman (the dude with the gas guns) and Hourman. So's Antman and Iron Man. And James Bond. James Bond is a Technocrat, full stop.
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Dec 16, 2014 04:30
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Honestly, if you absolutely had to use faerie stuff in an Old World of Darkness game, I would rip the entire goddamned Faerie Courts system right out of The Dresden Files and just use that. It's not like Harry Dresden isn't a particularly smart-assed member of the Order of Hermes.
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Dec 16, 2014 04:31
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Zeroisanumber posted:James Bond is a Technocrat, full stop. Shadow Ministry a go go baby! The Sons of Ether even has rules for when you stop casting spells and instead just start making Wonders for everyone.
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Dec 16, 2014 04:34
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Wanderer posted:I could go either way on it, but if you're playing a Technocracy agent and you don't have some very real problems with the way it goes about its business, you're not really paying attention. The newer Convention books make them look a little more benevolent than they used to (although the New World Order is still really creepy), and the Void Engineers are practically a tenth Tradition by comparison, but the old sickness is still very much there. I suppose I'll put it this way: my experience with the World of Darkness is exclusively nHunter, running a Task Force: VALKYRIE game as a light-hearted beer and pizza mashup of the X-Files and X-COM. Be The Man. Use unlimited funding, bleeding-edge technology, and government bureaucracy to locate and eliminate paranormal threats to the world, occasionally with support from the FBI's psychic division and my homebrew NSA's precognition project. First session was some vampires kidnapping the President. Personally, I'm all in favor of making things work out according to plan. Extreme order to the point of mind control is a bad thing, but that doesn't make order in and of itself bad.
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Dec 16, 2014 04:39
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Cythereal posted:First session was some vampires kidnapping the President. Why has Hollywood never used this premise? It's beautiful in its simplicity.
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Dec 16, 2014 04:46
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Wanderer posted:Ascension book that closed the line didn't happen What happened in that book? Was it the equivalent of all those weird endings for Vampire like Caine seeing Abel in an ally or 40 days and nights of blood draining rain with you stuck in a church? Random thought, they gave a lot of ways for Vampire to end, if they did the same for Mage did any of them involve the Void Engineers making like the Virtual Adepts and Sons of Ether and telling the Technocracy to gently caress off? Fantastic Alice fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 05:16
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Screaming Idiot posted:Why has Hollywood never used this premise? It's beautiful in its simplicity. My players seriously considered letting the president die. It's the World of Darkness, so in 2008 Sarah Palin was elected president. 
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Dec 16, 2014 05:21
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xanthan posted:What happened in that book? Was it the equivalent of all those weird endings for Vampire like Caine seeing Abel in an ally or 40 days and nights of blood draining rain with you stuck in a church? Pretty much that exactly. A bunch of different possible end scenarios were included: 1: The 'default' ending was global Ascension as all of humanity awakens and creates a weird state in which every person gets their own utopia overlapping with everyone else's. 2: A Technocratic scenario in which the good Technocrats fight the Orwellian ones for final control over humanity's future. 3: One where the Nephandi create a post-apocalyptic demonic dystopia. 4: One in which a meteor may or may not destroy Earth. 5: And finally a scenario in which aliens steal magic from humanity. Pussy Cartel fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 05:21
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Cythereal posted:My players seriously considered letting the president die. It's the World of Darkness, so in 2008 Sarah Palin was elected president. I literally shivered IRL. That's the most disgusting thing I've witnessed in a WoD game, and I've seen the Nazi blood rapist vampire picture. So how well do Mages get along with Prometheans? I mean, Technocrats make robots, some Prometheans were robots, what's the overlap? I'm not asking because I want Megaman and Robocop to team up and shoot fairies and elves in their stupid whiny faces, honest.
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Dec 16, 2014 05:26
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And they were all so weirdly dissonant with the game's tone. That was the problem with Mage in the oWod. Every other major line had some kind of apocalyptic grand finale baked in - Vampire had Gehenna, Werewolf had the titular Apocalypse, Changeling had Winter, Wraith had all sorts of Oblivion popping up, and Hunter had the inevitable death of you and everyone you cared about. Mage. . . Mage had no built-in apocalypse. If you won, congratulations, welcome to Nirvana, here's your Singularity. If you lost the other guy would eventually get his. Shoehorning in any kind of End Times nonsense did incredible violence to the themes of the game. Of course, that's the sort of opinion that launched a thousand edition flame wars.
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Dec 16, 2014 05:30
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xanthan posted:What happened in that book? Was it the equivalent of all those weird endings for Vampire like Caine seeing Abel in an ally or 40 days and nights of blood draining rain with you stuck in a church? All three of the "Time of Judgment" books were multiple-choice. Apocalypse The Last Battleground: The Wyrm unleashes a new kind of Bane in an attempt to get itself physically summoned into the spirit realms close to Earth, which has a domino effect on all of the realms in the Umbra. Everything comes down to a big battle in the Umbral Realm called the Plain of the Apocalypse. A Tribe Falls: One of the twelve major tribes of Garou falls to the Wyrm, which ushers in the Apocalypse. This features a different scenario for each tribe, ranging from the apocalyptic (the Red Talons try to wake up old spirits that are sleeping underneath the ocean floor, causing massive earthquakes and defrosting methane clathrates all over the world) to the relatively quiet (the Silent Striders try to turn the Wyrm and the ancient sleeping ghosts in the Underworld against each other, but become corrupted in so doing) to the explody (the Wendigo cause a nuclear winter). Weaver Ascendant: It turns out the Wyrm wasn't as big of a problem as the Weaver, which begins sending out strike teams in an attempt to choke the entire world to death. Ragnarok: The Wyrm's opening move is an asteroid strike against the planet, which plunges all of Earth into chaos and bloodshed. Pussy Cartel posted:Pretty much that exactly. A bunch of different possible end scenarios were included: #3 is particularly vicious, because it recasts the entirety of Mage's established meta-plot as one long game by the first and most powerful Nephandi to ever exist. I've been meaning to stitch together some kind of e-book for my own sake with all of the Kathleen Ryan stories about Amanda, so I can have them all in one place. Oberndorf posted:Shoehorning in any kind of End Times nonsense did incredible violence to the themes of the game. "Doing incredible violence to the themes of the game" should've been the tagline for Mage Revised. Still bitter.
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Dec 16, 2014 05:32
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Screaming Idiot posted:So how well do Mages get along with Prometheans? I mean, Technocrats make robots, some Prometheans were robots, what's the overlap? I'm not asking because I want Megaman and Robocop to team up and shoot fairies and elves in their stupid whiny faces, honest. They don't. Prometheans are strictly a nWoD thing, and the mage chatter has been all oWoD. quote:I literally shivered IRL. That's the most disgusting thing I've witnessed in a WoD game, and I've seen the Nazi blood rapist vampire picture. A good deal of fun was had with the supernatural world absolutely convinced that Palin had to be one of them or a pawn thereof to get elected. No one in the shadow world could believe that humans could elect Palin on their own.
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Dec 16, 2014 05:33
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Screaming Idiot posted:So how well do Mages get along with Prometheans? I mean, Technocrats make robots, some Prometheans were robots, what's the overlap? I'm not asking because I want Megaman and Robocop to team up and shoot fairies and elves in their stupid whiny faces, honest. There's actually a fun concept for a character in the first Sons of Ether Tradition book: you're an actual no-foolin' golem, a year-old artificial human who was built in a lab. Your creator didn't think you were sentient in the classic sense. Then you Awakened.
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Dec 16, 2014 05:35
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Cythereal posted:They don't. Prometheans are strictly a nWoD thing, and the mage chatter has been all oWoD. D'oh. Sorry about that, but can you blame a guy for wanting to imagine magical scientists and Pinnochio-cyborgs teaming up to murder whiny fairy tale rejects?
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Dec 16, 2014 05:36
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Oberndorf posted:Mage. . . Mage had no built-in apocalypse. If you won, congratulations, welcome to Nirvana, here's your Singularity. If you lost the other guy would eventually get his. Shoehorning in any kind of End Times nonsense did incredible violence to the themes of the game. ...yeah. I mean, it seemed pretty clear to me that Technocratic domination implied that any Tradition (or Orphan) mage would eventually be unable to perform even the simplest spells (with or without Paradox completely killing them). So there was at least one apocalypse built in (you can call that "the other guy getting his Singularity," but it seems like a pretty fundamental difference). And also that that day wasn't too far away. Mind you, the actual apocalypse scenarios don't seem to connect with that at all, other than #2 above.
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Dec 16, 2014 05:38
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Wanderer posted:There's actually a fun concept for a character in the first Sons of Ether Tradition book: you're an actual no-foolin' golem, a year-old artificial human who was built in a lab. Your creator didn't think you were sentient in the classic sense. Then you Awakened. To say nothing of Frankenstein's monster being an Etherite himself, after his creator went mad and died.
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Dec 16, 2014 05:39
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ulmont posted:...yeah. I mean, it seemed pretty clear to me that Technocratic domination implied that any Tradition (or Orphan) mage would eventually be unable to perform even the simplest spells (with or without Paradox completely killing them). So there was at least one apocalypse built in (you can call that "the other guy getting his Singularity," but it seems like a pretty fundamental difference). And also that that day wasn't too far away. That's something that the guys who made Mage Revised didn't seem to get: that whole thing was never going to happen. Brucato came right out and said it in the second-edition Storyteller's Guide: the Ascension War while he was the line developer was mostly a cold war, fought through proxies, with all the archmages on either side content to play the long game. The Traditions occupy a number of ideological foxholes in the human condition that cannot be conveniently written out, such as religion, altered states (even Technocrats will have the occasional beer), music, mysticism, or the euthanatos-eros complex. Within those spheres of influence, they cannot be touched or wiped out entirely. I started to say a similar thing to Cythereal earlier, but it's the fundamental conflict of the line: the irrationalities that make us humans vs. the rationalities that have made us comfortable. The best-case scenario is that both sides clench their teeth and try to see the other's point of view.
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Dec 16, 2014 05:44
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Screaming Idiot posted:D'oh. Sorry about that, but can you blame a guy for wanting to imagine magical scientists and Pinnochio-cyborgs teaming up to murder whiny fairy tale rejects? Prometheans don't really team up with anyone, sadly. Part of their nature is that reality itself hates and rejects them, and one of the ways this manifests is the Disquiet: over time, everyone who comes in contact with the Promethean goes insane. Precisely how they go insane and what forms it takes depends on the type of Promethean, but it's rare for Prometheans to find friends or allies beyond other Prometheans. Those few friends can be extremely important to the Promethean's Pilgrimage. oMages would have a field day with Prometheans, I think. The long and short of Promethean is the quest to become human. A logical question, then, is how you define human.
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Dec 16, 2014 05:52
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Cythereal posted:Prometheans don't really team up with anyone, sadly. Part of their nature is that reality itself hates and rejects them, and one of the ways this manifests is the Disquiet: over time, everyone who comes in contact with the Promethean goes insane. Precisely how they go insane and what forms it takes depends on the type of Promethean, but it's rare for Prometheans to find friends or allies beyond other Prometheans. Those few friends can be extremely important to the Promethean's Pilgrimage. Does Disquiet work on someone they only contact over the phone or online? Because if not I could honestly see a lot of Prometheans trying to get smart phones solely so they can have contact with normal humans through Facebook or something. Just imagine Frankenstein being a regular on SA or something for example due to his inability to interact with real people for too long without being hated. Hell some organization could shove smartphones at them in exchange for working as informants or hitmen or something. They'd likely jump at the chance of getting to have human friends. The part where you can never meet said friends in person will still suck, but frankly with how connected the world is the idea of having friends you may never get to meet face to face due to things like living in different countries is becoming kind of normal. Fantastic Alice fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 06:28
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Cythereal posted:Steampunk doesn't do it for me, sorry. I always figured the modern SoE was more about junkyard punk than steampunk. You know, a guy who goes into a pile of broken mechanical objects and builds something that looks like it shouldn't work (or if it did it only worked twenty years ago) but somehow it manages to do the job anyhow.
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Dec 16, 2014 06:59
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:I always figured the modern SoE was more about junkyard punk than steampunk. You know, a guy who goes into a pile of broken mechanical objects and builds something that looks like it shouldn't work (or if it did it only worked twenty years ago) but somehow it manages to do the job anyhow. There's also the Manhattanites dissident grouo, who build things that belong in Fallout pre-nuke. Their leader, in fact, HAS a nuke. Implanted in his chest.
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Dec 16, 2014 10:28
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Too bad his name likely isn't John "I rigged a wormhole bomb to my biological conditions, so sit up and listen" Chrichton, given that I think Farscape started airing too late for it to be possible?
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Dec 16, 2014 12:03
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xanthan posted:Does Disquiet work on someone they only contact over the phone or online? Because if not I could honestly see a lot of Prometheans trying to get smart phones solely so they can have contact with normal humans through Facebook or something. Just imagine Frankenstein being a regular on SA or something for example due to his inability to interact with real people for too long without being hated. Yep, Disquiet is mentioned to work for anyone a Promethean has any form of contact with, including non-physical means. It isn't a quirk of encountering them, reality itself hates Prometheans and the Disquiet is one of the forms this takes. Narratively speaking, Prometheans are meant to live lonely existences with only a rare few friends, few of them lasting - other Prometheans or the extremely rare human who is immune to Disquiet (this is DM fiat) or makes the effort to work through it.
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Dec 16, 2014 13:51
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I remember the Promethean talk from before about how they would warp the surrounding landscape too. Stay in one place too long and your average small town is now a barren desert, a radioactive wasteland or a fetid swamp. Prometheans can not catch a break.
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Dec 16, 2014 14:04
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What's the Apocalypse where the Bone Gnawers fall to the Wyrm like? An army of hobos with shotguns destroying the world?
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Dec 16, 2014 14:09
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Or is it Sputnik posted:I remember the Promethean talk from before about how they would warp the surrounding landscape too. Stay in one place too long and your average small town is now a barren desert, a radioactive wasteland or a fetid swamp. Prometheans can not catch a break. Yup, that's the Wasteland. Each also has a Torment, what happens when the Promethean completely snaps for a while. C/Ping my previous bigpost about it: For Wretched, the Frankensteins, their Disquiet manifests in people simultaneously pitying and fearing the Promethean, the way a neighborhood might pity but fear the bully who's grown up in an obviously bad home environment. As the Disquiet builds, pity and fear give way to maniacal group hatred of the outsider as a danger to the community. Their Wasteland unleashes fire: thunderstorms are attracted to the area and last unusually long times and fires start more easily and spread rapidly. A full-blown Wretched Wasteland is an out of control inferno permanently shrouded in an apocalyptic electrical storm. Their Torment is insane, irrational rage with a hair-trigger temper. For Osirans, the Nepri, their Disquiet turns the Osirans' own predilection to be coldly unemotional on its head, starting with making everyone around them a bit more emotional and irrational than usual, and more prone to quickly changing moods. As the Disquiet builds, the mood swings and strong emotions worsen to the point that someone can be warmly embracing you one moment, cowering in fear of you the next, beating your brain in with a handy brick a second after that, crying in regret and pain a moment later, etc. Their Wasteland poisons the water around them, first making water taste bitter and sulfuric, then leading into prolonged droughts as sources of water rapidly evaporate and what remains becomes stagnant and toxic. Their Torment is becoming Vulcans, coldly amoral beings motivated only by passionless and pitiless logic. For Galateids, the Beautiful, their Disquiet causes jealousy and obsession - people just have to get to know this beautiful stranger while those they care about begin to suspect that anyone who spends time with the stranger is clearly cheating on them. In full swing, their Disquiet makes everyone utterly obsessed with them or murderous from jealousy - and that obsession is never, ever healthy. Their Wasteland drains the air of oxygen, poisoning the atmosphere and making everyone tired and light-headed. People, especially infants and the elderly, slip into comas and suffocate in a full blown Galateid Wasteland as the air starts to become unbreathable. Their Torment makes them every crazy ex you've ever had, simultaneously hating everyone yet needing them. For Tammuz, the Golems, their Disquiet makes people simultaneously start to depend on the Promethean but also resent them for it - people know this lady can get the job done, but hate that they need this lady to do it. Like other Prometheans, this only intensifies as the Disquiet grows, making the Promethean the person everyone needs for everything and utterly hated for it as people also hate themselves for being so incapable next to the stranger. Their Wasteland poisons the earth itself, making the land less fertile and sinkholes start to appear. A full power Tammuz Wasteland is a Dust Bowl confined to the area around the Promethean riddled with geological collapses as the structure of the ground crumbles. Their Torment is a two-stage process, first an out of control berserk frenzy to make a werewolf blush, then a suffocating black hole of depression. Ulgans, the Riven, are a bit different in that other supernaturals are the most familiar with what happens. Their Disquiet eats away at the human consciousness of people, who start to fall into simpler, animalistic actions and emotions or into lives of rote routine. These worsen as the Disquiet grows, people either devolving into automatons pantomiming human life or becoming possessed by spirits. Ulgan Wastelands are the stuff of nightmares to werewolves and sin-eaters: the veil between the mortal world and the world of spirits starts to thin. Strange stuff happens at first, hauntings and other weird but fairly "normal" supernatural phenomena. As the Wasteland grows, things cross the veil with increasing ease and most of the supernatural World of Darkness shits a brick. Their Torment makes them behave purely on single-minded instinct, immune to rationality and reason. Zeka are a new lineage, nuclear Prometheans with an affinity for radiation. They're rare and dangerous even by Promethean standards. Their Disquiet is a curious one in that it isn't necessarily directed at the Promethean. It manifests as growing fear and paranoia, of the Promethean but also of everyone in general. At full strength, it's witch hunts, civil war, and utter paranoia and xenophobia run amok. Their Wasteland is exactly what you'd expect: a nuclear fallout zone, starting from nothing really worse than normal background radiation but escalating to "Hiroshima, circa 1945 the day after Little Boy" given time. Their Torment is an intense need to gently caress poo poo up, not necessarily anger so much as a primal drive to destroy. Unfleshed, the Prometheans born of machinery and computers rather than anything organic, don't have a Disquiet or Torment of their own - each Unfleshed has their own, typically taken from one of the above five. However, they do have their own Wasteland. If you've seen Transformers 4: Age of Extinction, remember the bombs that turn the landscape into metal? That's what an Unfleshed Wasteland does, albeit slowly and by degrees.
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Dec 16, 2014 14:09
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Rockopolis posted:What's the Apocalypse where the Bone Gnawers fall to the Wyrm like? An army of hobos with shotguns destroying the world? They start calling themselves the Plague Rats and view being on the "right side" in the Apocalypse as being a more reliable ticket to survival than fighting against it. When they go hot, it's with a bunch of vampire and corrupted Ratkin allies, and they unleash all sorts of spirit-engineered viruses on the world.
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Dec 16, 2014 17:20
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:I always figured the modern SoE was more about junkyard punk than steampunk. You know, a guy who goes into a pile of broken mechanical objects and builds something that looks like it shouldn't work (or if it did it only worked twenty years ago) but somehow it manages to do the job anyhow. So, the SoE are 40k orks? That sounds like a good game to me.
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Dec 16, 2014 17:36
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sleepy.eyes posted:So, the SoE are 40k orks? That sounds like a good game to me. Little bit. It's exploiting not so much the beliefs of the Sons of Ether but a subconscious belief humans have that if something looks really complicated, it probably obeys some logic and reason and anything nonsensical it does is only nonsense because you haven't studied something. They're basically the Clarke quote in reverse.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:23
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Shugojin posted:Little bit. It's exploiting not so much the beliefs of the Sons of Ether but a subconscious belief humans have that if something looks really complicated, it probably obeys some logic and reason and anything nonsensical it does is only nonsense because you haven't studied something. That is completely fantastic. Get a child's toy gun and hang enough wires and flashing lights and complicated looking circuitry and mirrors off it and you can magic up some lasers and nobody will care. Are the people who use this method basically weird in-game metagamers?
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Dec 16, 2014 18:47
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MarquiseMindfang posted:That is completely fantastic. Get a child's toy gun and hang enough wires and flashing lights and complicated looking circuitry and mirrors off it and you can magic up some lasers and nobody will care. Are the people who use this method basically weird in-game metagamers? The real heart of Etherite theory is that they believe in a subject-centred view of the universe. Basically, an exaggeration of the observer effect, quantum mechanics, and Schrodinger's cat. What's true from one person's perspective might not be from someone else, and so Science! should be individualistic and idiosyncratic. Ether is just their weird metaphor for what each Etherite seeks, although it's also literal for some of the older Etherites.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:16
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Screaming Idiot posted:Except for Changeling: The NO, gently caress YOU DAD!ening. That poo poo sounds awful regardless of the old or new generation. Wrong. The new Changeling owns pretty hard.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:35
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fspades posted:Wrong. The new Changeling owns pretty hard. nChangeling is Abuse Victim: The Therapy. Not my cup of tea, but there are quite a few people who seem to enjoy it.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:39
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