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Also one of them built a big shifting maze underneath the city and filled it with monsters.
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Dec 16, 2014 06:51
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My Imaginary GF posted:controversial religious opinion itt Good conversation topic. Here's a nice video about the Israeli treatment of African Jews. These are people with the same claim to matrilineal heritage as any other Jew. They are also forced to undergo conversion processes ("second circumcision"). But of course they are not welcome, because at the end of the day the Israeli people don't believe in having African Jews. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URroQn9Bwnk Meanwhile the Catholic Church is actively fighting to convert Africans and to protect them against Muslim terrorist groups like Boko Haram.
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Dec 16, 2014 06:59
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Kyrie eleison posted:Good conversation topic. Israel is torturing terrorists at former terrorist training camps. Can you say the same about your 'communist' church?
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Dec 16, 2014 07:22
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Kyrie eleison posted:Good conversation topic. Israel being lovely does not make you good. It makes Israel lovely. Also I sort of call bullshit on the Catholic Church protecting people from Boko Haram. What, are they sending the swiss guards in to mess them up? Or are you counting the priest's body guards? Because if you're counting secular authorities, then lets be realistic, it is the secular authorities that are protecting them.
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Dec 16, 2014 07:26
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Caros posted:Israel being lovely does not make you good. It makes Israel lovely.  Once again, its actually the protestants and evangelicals who kill boko haram while subscribing to Israeli intelligence products
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Dec 16, 2014 07:28
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Caros posted:Israel being lovely does not make you good. It makes Israel lovely.
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Dec 16, 2014 07:38
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Caros posted:Also I sort of call bullshit on the Catholic Church protecting people from Boko Haram. What, are they sending the swiss guards in to mess them up? Or are you counting the priest's body guards? Because if you're counting secular authorities, then lets be realistic, it is the secular authorities that are protecting them. No he means the Catholic Church is protecting their souls from the Muslims by converting them to the one true religion, after you've done that why would you need to protect them from physical harm? Your job is done, buddy.
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Dec 16, 2014 07:41
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My Imaginary GF posted:Israel is torturing terrorists at former terrorist training camps. Can you say the same about your 'communist' church? I don't know why that would be a good thing. The church does not approve of torture. Also, I would not claim the church is communist. Communism is an enemy of the church. Caros posted:Israel being lovely does not make you good. It makes Israel lovely. Right, but my point is that this comes down to a fundamental theological difference between Judaism and Christianity. Judaism does not see it as a universal religion desiring to save all men's egalitarian souls, it sees itself as a racial group which is prophesied to lead the world. Christianity is a church for all mankind and actively tries to get everyone to join. Perhaps one of these theological worldviews is better?? Well, you are right, the church is not militarily protecting them. I shouldn't have said it the way I did. But we are protecting them in the sense that we give them identification with the church and the humanitarian efforts of the church and all of the powers that the church does have, such as with the press. This is better for the victims than not being associated with the church. I hope we can all agree that groups like Boko Haram are unacceptable.
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Dec 16, 2014 07:52
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We don't want you. It takes devotion to follow YHWH, and someone so easily to be swayed by the first communistic self-proclaimed messish figure is not someone good for the community's long-term stability. Have your "universal church"; meanwhile, we'll keep the word of YHWH and folloe his laws. Laws, like 'You will not murder' by killing those who fall outside the definitions of murder. Boko Haram is one such organization which isn't haram to kill.
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Dec 16, 2014 07:56
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My Imaginary GF posted:We don't want you. It takes devotion to follow YHWH, and someone so easily to be swayed by the first communistic self-proclaimed messish figure is not someone good for the community's long-term stability. I don't want to join you! You have no devotion, as evidenced by your taking the Lord's name in vain. So many Jews you would claim as members of your religious group are non-religious. You call the church "communistic" as a pejorative, but I deny it; actual communists, on the other hand, are very often Jews. You say the Christ was self-proclaimed, but he was also proclaimed by the people (should the Messiah deny he is the Messiah?) I don't know if you are being ironic by quoting "You shall not murder," but the church accepts violence in self-defense, which is certainly the case when dealing with Boko Haram.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:02
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Kyrie eleison posted:I don't want to join you! You have no devotion, as evidenced by your taking the Lord's name in vain. So many Jews you would claim as members of your religious group are non-religious. You call the church "communistic" as a pejorative, but I deny it; actual communists, on the other hand, are very often Jews. You say the Christ was self-proclaimed, but he was also proclaimed by the people (should the Messiah deny he is the Messiah?) Not that you do deal with them. Again you don't actually do poo poo.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:10
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Caros posted:Not that you do deal with them. Again you don't actually do poo poo. Listen, if your critique here is that the Catholic church isn't militarily powerful enough, I'm willing to listen.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:11
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Kyrie eleison posted:actual communists, on the other hand, are very often Jews.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:12
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Kyrie eleison posted:Good conversation topic. Wait isn't it the right of European Jews to preserve their aesthetically pleasing racial features and a testament to their devotion to diversity that they insist African Jews pursue their own separate development? Surely you should applaud their rejection of integration (better known as White Genocide) and their drive to pass on only their own racial features and heritage, no?
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Dec 16, 2014 08:39
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Kyrie eleison posted:Also, I would not claim the church is communist. Communism is an enemy of the church. Uh oh, you'd better not ready anything Comrade Jesus said!
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Dec 16, 2014 09:01
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Nessus posted:Could you elaborate on this? Researching it just now has taught me some things, such as that Karl Marx was baptized Lutheran, although he was matrilineally Jewish. Engels was converted to communism by a Moses Hess, who also encouraged Marx and gave him a platform. It does seem to me that many (possibly most?) of the high Soviet leadership appointed after the revolution were Jewish. Lenin himself was evidently a quarter Jewish, although not matrilineally. The point is not to suggest that "all Jews are communists," the Nazi idea which is of course not even close to true. I was just saying that communism began amongst Jews and many of the notable names in it were Jewish, so a Jewish person calling the Church communistic is ironic. The Church and religious Jews alike stood against Communism, which is, of course, strictly atheistic. VitalSigns posted:Wait isn't it the right of European Jews to preserve their aesthetically pleasing racial features and a testament to their devotion to diversity that they insist African Jews pursue their own separate development? First off, let me clarify (once again) that someone having the preference to marry within their own ethnicity is not the same thing as preventing others from inter-marriage. The Church strongly supports the right to inter-marriage between Christians of any ethnicity, and it similarly supports the right of a person to choose their own Christian partner by whatever criteria they both favor, such as a shared background. Second, if these Africans are believed to be legitimate members of the Jewish people according to matrilineal descent or accepted conversion, then Israel, if it is going to be a religious state and not merely a racial one, has to accept them. It is the official Catholic teaching that a wealthy nation has the obligation to accept immigrants seeking realistic work opportunities so long as they meet requirements that they respect the "spiritual heritage" of a nation and are suitably responsive to civic duty. I am not saying Israel needs to take maladaptive persons, which it doesn't. But it is morally obligated to accept people who are capable and desirous of belonging to a reasonable standard. In the case provided here, it seems that the Israeli government may just be excluding these people based purely on their race.
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Dec 16, 2014 10:19
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Kyrie eleison posted:Meanwhile the Catholic Church is actively fighting to convert Africans and to protect them against Muslim terrorist groups like Boko Haram. Why is conversion a good thing, anyway. You all talk about hell as something to be avoided, but it sounds pretty kickass to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q3QDmOMnNc
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Dec 16, 2014 12:18
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nopantsjack posted:Uh oh, you'd better not ready anything Comrade Jesus said! It only seems like that because the real Gospel isn't being preached anymore. 
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Dec 16, 2014 13:34
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I've been checking out some of the talks from John Lennox and he actually makes an argument for Creationism on the DNA/encoding level that's interesting. It's basically a challenge to see if people can prove that such an encoding can be generated through a random process (within the time period of the beginning of Earth as opposed to an infinite one which is the monkey writing Shakespeare framework.)
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Dec 16, 2014 16:13
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Tezzeract posted:I've been checking out some of the talks from John Lennox and he actually makes an argument for Creationism on the DNA/encoding level that's compelling. It's basically a challenge to see if people can prove that such an encoding can be generated through a random process (within the time period of the beginning of Earth as opposed to an infinite one which is the monkey writing Shakespeare framework.) The Christian Apologist and leading figure of the Evangelical Intelligentsia movement? Yeah........if you are compelled by a guy who is twisting facts to fit his religions explanation of how things happen in nature, I don't know what to tell you. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 16:17
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Kyrie eleison posted:The Church and religious Jews alike stood against Communism, which is, of course, strictly atheistic. "All the believers were together and had everything in common." Strictly atheistic apparently, what's that James fellow running a commune? It's almost like the story in Acts that goes about fire coming down from heaven on the heads of the believers, that then talks about the old world ending, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come", and that then talks about the resurrection of Christ, and then about how that resurrection has spread to the apostles and those baptized in the Spirit. All resulting in a community that looks like this: "And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." Can some of you see why Luke/Acts might be really important, even if it's obviously being constructed from Roman/Greek myths to subvert those myths, especially the emperor cult? Can you see why Paul might be important, why the symbolic joining of this community with all the gentile churches might be a big deal? And can you see that the context, when this was written, after all this was smashed and many of these people of this community were crucified, might be a really big deal? Jeez why might talk about Spirit be important? Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 16:21
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CommieGIR posted:The Christian Apologist and leading figure of the Evangelical Intelligentsia movement?
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Dec 16, 2014 16:24
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Who What Now posted:And Brandor, I do wanna say that I think our current conversation on the meaning of "spirit" and "soul" has more merit than most we've had in the past, since this may be something we can actually either come to a conclusion on or hammer out exactly where the divide is. And I don't think we're near either yet. I do too. And we aren't. Let's see where it goes. steinrokkan posted:Yup, pointing that out was sort of the purpose of my post. We are ready to accept that existence of things and concepts opens up simultaneous paths to both evil and good (to use simple terms), but when religion preaches the same ambiguity of the human soul and its tendencies, it's decried as incompatible with some sort of universal moral presence (even though the believers in communism do not see the existence of the fascist ideology as a proof of impossibility of realizing the goals of their ideology). Flip Yr Wig posted:I'm not saying you can't make a Hegelian apologetic for Christian orthodoxy, but is that your actual goal here? I'm fine with continental criticism that uses a Christian framework, but I suspect that's not what you're really after. I'm saying that Hegel's talk about spirit comes from somewhere, where does it comes from? The same place Kant's talk about reason comes from. The same place later talk about "will" comes from. The same place that idea of "pure doctrine" Jefferson appeals to comes from. The constructions of Christian Orthodoxy are a very big deal. Protestantism is also very big deal. Maybe one needs to look at Origen's talk about souls and spirit (and how this responds to Plotinus) to understand Hegels talk about Geist. Maybe one needs to understand how Luther's reclaiming of the bible's absolute categories (done by looking back to Paul) might have something to do with Hegel's talk about the Absolute.
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Dec 16, 2014 16:46
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Tezzeract posted:I've been checking out some of the talks from John Lennox and he actually makes an argument for Creationism on the DNA/encoding level that's interesting. It's basically a challenge to see if people can prove that such an encoding can be generated through a random process (within the time period of the beginning of Earth as opposed to an infinite one which is the monkey writing Shakespeare framework.) The fact that it exists and came from a random process proves that it's possible. That's like asking someone to prove manned flight is possible while riding in helicopter.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:00
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Tezzeract posted:I've been checking out some of the talks from John Lennox and he actually makes an argument for Creationism on the DNA/encoding level that's interesting. It's basically a challenge to see if people can prove that such an encoding can be generated through a random process (within the time period of the beginning of Earth as opposed to an infinite one which is the monkey writing Shakespeare framework.)
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Dec 16, 2014 18:20
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Who What Now posted:The fact that it exists and came from a random process proves that it's possible. That's like asking someone to prove manned flight is possible while riding in helicopter.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:22
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Nessus posted:I suppose his argument is that it is not proven it came from a random process, as opposed to the hand of God (or if you want to kick the ball down the road, alien contamination of the primordial Earth). He's arguing the ordered method of evolution supports the idea of God. Whatever floats his boat, but he's still wrong.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:27
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Nessus posted:I suppose his argument is that it is not proven it came from a random process, as opposed to the hand of God (or if you want to kick the ball down the road, alien contamination of the primordial Earth). The Urey-Miller experiment shows that amino acids can form naturally in what may have been an environment similar to that of prehistoric earth.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:29
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Who What Now posted:The Urey-Miller experiment shows that amino acids can form naturally in what may have been an environment similar to that of prehistoric earth. Not to mention organic materiel being readily available in space, there was already enough raw materiel laying around between terrestrial and extraterrestrial.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:32
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Who What Now posted:The Urey-Miller experiment shows that amino acids can form naturally in what may have been an environment similar to that of prehistoric earth.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:47
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Nessus posted:Sure, I agree with you, I was clarifying the guy's argument. You want to know what the other guy is trying to say so he can't just go "No no you don't understand me!" and win debate points in the public square! At the end of the day, that is what Christian Apologists like Professor Lennox are going to say anyways, because that is actually how they feel. People like him spend all the time they can combing over scientific literature and exclaiming 'Ah ha!, Look here, God did it!' He is not interested in skepticism or even the scientific value of the discoveries made, only twisting them into supporting the context of his religion. Anybody who disagrees just 'Doesn't understand'. Its the same thing with people like Ken Ham, even if they lose in the minds eye of the scientific community, they win within their own community.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:52
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BrandorKP posted:"All the believers were together and had everything in common." Strictly atheistic apparently, what's that James fellow running a commune? It's almost like the story in Acts that goes about fire coming down from heaven on the heads of the believers, that then talks about the old world ending, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come", and that then talks about the resurrection of Christ, and then about how that resurrection has spread to the apostles and those baptized in the Spirit. All resulting in a community that looks like this: Alright, sharing is one thing. But the common meaning of "communism" refers to Marxism-Leninism. Christianity is not Marxist-Leninism. It is opposed to Marxism-Leninism.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:19
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Kyrie eleison posted:Alright, sharing is one thing. But the common meaning of "communism" refers to Marxism-Leninism. Christianity is not Marxist-Leninism. It is opposed to Marxism-Leninism. No, the common meaning of Communism refers to Stalinism, while Marxism-Leninism was what started the USSR, Stalinism is what most people are actually afraid of/referring to. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 19:23
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BrandorKP posted:"All the believers were together and had everything in common." Strictly atheistic apparently, what's that James fellow running a commune? It's almost like the story in Acts that goes about fire coming down from heaven on the heads of the believers, that then talks about the old world ending, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come", and that then talks about the resurrection of Christ, and then about how that resurrection has spread to the apostles and those baptized in the Spirit. All resulting in a community that looks like this: These passages pretty obviously refer to tax cuts on the job creators that will get people off of welfare and working so they can share in the prosperity of free-market capitalism.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:32
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VitalSigns posted:These passages pretty obviously refer to tax cuts on the job creators that will get people off of welfare and working so they can share in the prosperity of free-market capitalism. It is 100% voluntary.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:34
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Kyrie eleison posted:It is 100% voluntary. So is remaining in a community with high taxes.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:51
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Kyrie eleison posted:It is 100% voluntary. Not killing people is also 100% voluntary. That's like the point of free will right, God leaves you free to be a murderer or a mammon-loving miser, but if you actually do it that's a sin and He is none to pleased with you. Of course this says nothing about whether our society should have laws against murder or create a tax-financed welfare system because that's Cæsar's domain anyway.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:54
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Proto-communists were basically all chrisitan-based, eg- Anabaptists. Whether that means anything is up for debate, I'd rather take the view that material conditions determine a societies' values, so of course something like religion is always interpreted and reinterpreted to fit the views of the reader. To Kyrie christianity is anti-communist, but that's is his own reflection rather than any inherent nature of a text as ambiguous as the bible. Though the question behind the protestant reformation is interesting. I don't think that protestants as a whole are inherently more progressive than catholics or orthodox. But the fundamental approach to knowledge is a lot more interesting, you make up your own mind rather than having it dictated to you on high. It is just you and the text, for good or ill. Seems more reasonable, no? rudatron fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 19:54
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BrandorKP posted:Jeez why might talk about Spirit be important? Talking about spirit isn't important. Talking about community and welfare is, though. Brandor, you do understand that definitions change over time, yes? And while looking at the etymological histories of words is fantastic for understanding their contextual usage and an insight into the development of a language it nevertheless does not change what a word's definition is today. As I'm sure you're aware the word "human being" used to refer to a bundle of kindling used for starting fires and had no type of slur associated with it at that time. However I'm willing to bet that when you go camping you don't say "someone find me a human being to burn" when you want to start a fire. Because today that word carries a lot of baggage to it and is used as a slur against certain people. The word has changed and it no longer means what it used to. So while you can point to ten, or a hundred, or even a billion authors in antiquity who used 'soul' or 'spirit' to refer to a sense of community and belonging or to human ingenuity and perseverance but that doesn't change the fact that when spirit and soul are used today they are referring to supernatural forces. And until such time that anything supernatural can be shown to have any kind of good evidence to support it's existence then they aren't worth the time to seriously consider and debate their merits.
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Dec 16, 2014 20:03
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What is the point of redefining spirit or soul to mean "the effect of cultural trends, ideas, and past actions on the present" instead of what the words actually mean, a supernatural component to human existence that preserves one's identity and consciousness after death? Is it just so you can equivocate on it later and be smug about how your own supernatural beliefs are actually just ordinary materialistic things, you dumb atheists, can't you see when you say souls aren't real you're saying history isn't real? Or some poo poo. Like I don't get it. We already have words for these materialistic things.
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Dec 16, 2014 20:09
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