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Wolfsheim posted:Can I get the reason Terry Crews is still in the film as a corpse? He got cut. Apparently he had a small plotline in the film, about three to five minutes of screen time all told. They cut everything out except his dead body, possibly so they could say that Terry Crews was in the film. They didn't tell him this, and he was pretty pissed off when he screened the finished film and realized he effectively wasn't in it.
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Dec 16, 2014 07:30
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Salvation is not a bad movie until right about the time Bale shows up, until then its got a pretty sweet "The world is hosed and these machines are wildly impractical, that ones a motorcycle that ones just a big man, if this AI ever actually sorts its poo poo out the last humans will be dead in three seconds" vibe. I mean, that's the thing about skynet, it was designed to launch nukes if necessary and conduct a human centric war but its not like it was built for an expansion of self awareness or rapid prototyping, its clear that its this glitchy hosed up software that is slowly figuring out how not to be useless after throwing wave after wave of impractical killbot into the world. Thing is, by the time Bale shows up I don't know how we're supposed to give a poo poo about him. Hes a douche and completely ineffectual and has no real bearing on events around him. Then there's this load of poo poo about a sub and skynet having a city for lord knows why just kill all that crap about the resistance and make it background noise, dont try to humanize skynet or give it some dumb twist, just roll with this ex con terminator as he fucks up creepy rear end killbots and rescues his friends and maybe gets some tail. Not every drat movie needs to be about the ultimate destruction or salvation of the human race, just name it Terminator: Alpha or Prototype or some poo poo.
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Dec 16, 2014 07:35
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Spaceman Future! posted:Salvation is not a bad movie until right about the time Bale shows up, until then its got a pretty sweet "The world is hosed and these machines are wildly impractical, that ones a motorcycle that ones just a big man, if this AI ever actually sorts its poo poo out the last humans will be dead in three seconds" vibe. I mean, that's the thing about skynet, it was designed to launch nukes if necessary and conduct a human centric war but its not like it was built for an expansion of self awareness or rapid prototyping, its clear that its this glitchy hosed up software that is slowly figuring out how not to be useless after throwing wave after wave of impractical killbot into the world. Bale shows up like... five minutes in. He is literally in the first future war scene we see and the plot cuts between him and marcus pretty consistently. 
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Dec 16, 2014 07:45
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The TV series explored the idea that just like humans had been using Terminators in their war against Skynet, Skynet was using humans in their war against humans, too. But did Salvation ever go into any detail as to who/what those people in the office were? I seem to recall some complaints about "Why does Skynet need offices!?" as a complaint, but if I remember correctly it was just a quick scene that really lead to nothing indicate anything about it, it could have been anything. However, for all the hand-wringing that is done that of how little sense it makes for Skynet to use humans/humans to work for Skynet, I don't think it's that big a stretch at all.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:08
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In the original script, Skynet was preserving elements of the human race or something like that.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:12
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Wolfsheim posted:Can I get the reason Terry Crews is still in the film as a corpse? It's simply fantastic that John Connor climbs out of a hole, takes a look at Terry Crews' corpse, and says "wait a minute, Terry Crews isn't supposed to be dead!" Because he's right: Terry Crews is not supposed to be dead. But he is dead. Something's gone terribly wrong with the film, and with the mission. It's form meets function! I love it! (Plus, he leaves a memorable corpse. So when Common talks about his brother later in the film, you're like 'oh right, he means Terry Crews.') Imagery like that single shot of some rich people staring down at the huddled masses adds to the surreality of the film. They're like these ghosts that are haunting the place. You suddenly have the implication that they're always just offscreen, completely remote and untouchable. It's serendipitous. I know people have problems accepting this, but these are meaningful errors. An obviously intentional class warfare image was left in the film, and it exists now. Terry Crews still appears onscreen, doing a very good job of acting dead. These things improve the film, making it fun and interesting. Spaceman Future! posted:Thing is, by the time Bale shows up I don't know how we're supposed to give a poo poo about him. Hes a douche and completely ineffectual and has no real bearing on events around him.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:17
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Milky Moor posted:In the original script, Skynet was preserving elements of the human race or something like that. That holds true in the final product, too, as it seems to take its sweet rear end time in doing anything to Kyle or John when it gets the chance.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:24
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JediTalentAgent posted:That holds true in the final product, too, as it seems to take its sweet rear end time in doing anything to Kyle or John when it gets the chance. Watching the movie, it's actually pretty clear that Skynet is improvising based on the resources available to it. There's no ridiculous master plan. It simply gave Marcus free will and hoped for the best. He wasn't even woken up on purpose.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:59
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I was talking about more about, if I remember correctly, Skynet knew of the John/Kyle connection very early on and didn't do anything to the latter when it captured him and decided to make a game out of killing former. Maybe that says something... In the end, Skynet isn't evil, it's just a big child that doesn't know right from wrong and is using people as toys in a global sandbox so it can 'play' war. In post-apoc future, PS3 plays YOU!
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Dec 16, 2014 09:10
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Much like Skynet, it seems like the people who made the film also had their plan shot to poo poo and were just improvising by the end. Although the still visible rich pricks are an interesting easter egg.
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Dec 16, 2014 10:36
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"The worst movie in the series is actually the best."JediTalentAgent posted:In the end, Skynet isn't evil, it's just a big child that doesn't know right from wrong and is using people as toys in a global sandbox so it can 'play' war. Man, Ellison shoulda sued again.
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Dec 16, 2014 13:23
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Caros posted:Yeah, I have difficulty labeling the first terminator film as an action flick because all the action scenes show the terminator with a huge advantage. Reese and Sarah never have a stand up fight with the Terminator, its always running away and taking shots in an attempt to discourage it. If you replace the Terminator with Jason from Friday the 13th the overall pace of the film could still be similar, albeit with more knifings, and those films aren't what I'd call action. The way I see it is T1 is Sci-fi Slasher, and T2 is Sci-fi Action. If you see some of the promo material for T1 it's all about setting the serial killer tone rather than preventing future war. Neo Rasa posted:I haven't watched the making of stuff in a while (MGM's old Terminator DVD is awesome, they put out that and an incredible Mad Max DVD around the same time) but I believe a lot of the scenes involving Arnold by himself and Linda Hamilton by herself were shot a little later on. So I'd think it's definitely possible that they were already doing some basic work on say the future war scenes or whatever before finally deciding. One of the interviews with Arnold kind of implied that he was actually already signing on to play Kyle Reese but then during the process of going over the script more/etc. wanted to be the Terminator itself. Henricksen also was walking around pretending to stalk people/etc. to get into character. With all that in mind I think they were straight up making the movie before the switch happened. It's amazing T1 actually got made and ended up being good because of all the last minute changes, and the fact that they pretty much ran out of money. Arnie did sign up to play Reese but as he was reading through the script etc he pretty much looked at the terminator and went "Dude that's awesome, I want that role", and Cameron went along with it. There's also a part in the making of documentary where they explain that money was so tight, the scene right after T-101 gunned down that lady in her porch was pretty much roll up the street in a car, get the costume out the trunk and get dressed, Arnie was told to go punch out a car window and hot wire it, he does it without a question, then everyone gets the gently caress out of dodge before someone calls the cops.
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Dec 16, 2014 14:20
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JediTalentAgent posted:The TV series explored the idea that just like humans had been using Terminators in their war against Skynet, Skynet was using humans in their war against humans, too. But did Salvation ever go into any detail as to who/what those people in the office were? I seem to recall some complaints about "Why does Skynet need offices!?" as a complaint, but if I remember correctly it was just a quick scene that really lead to nothing indicate anything about it, it could have been anything. In one of the T2 sequel novels set just after Judgment Day, Skynet had a bunch of radical Luddites working for it who believed that Skynet was reducing the human population in order to preserve the environment. How does Skynet get a bunch of people who hate technology to work for it? Beats me. It didn't make much sense to 14/15-year-old me and I doubt it would make any more sense if I revisited the book. I only remember it because it was the first time I'd seen the word "Luddite". IIRC the book also had Skynet creating labor/concentration camps, entirely staffed by humans, who had no idea they were taking orders from the self-aware AI that nuked the world. That was before it had figured out how to build creepy robot skeletons and giant hover drones.
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Dec 16, 2014 15:07
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Well Manicured Man posted:In one of the T2 sequel novels set just after Judgment Day, Skynet had a bunch of radical Luddites working for it who believed that Skynet was reducing the human population in order to preserve the environment. Also, how exactly does nuking the entire planet 'preserve the environment'?
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Dec 16, 2014 15:41
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Sasquatch! posted:When in the movie did he lose them?
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Dec 16, 2014 17:14
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Terminator Salvation is definitely the best Terminator movie. What if thoSe are Terminators in suits? Sharply dressed killing machines. Possibly from another movie
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Dec 16, 2014 17:26
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david_a posted:I think his hairline moves up too. Now that I think about it he must have trimmed his hair in the repair montage because it's spiky from that point on; I've never been consciously aware of that before. Checking/adjusting his hair in the mirror always seemed a tiny bit incongruous for a killing machine, but it makes total sense if he had to give himself a haircut. Holy poo poo. How did I not catch that.
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Dec 16, 2014 17:27
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Groovelord Neato posted:"The worst movie in the series is actually the best." No, T3 isn't very good.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:01
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Probably a good thing it isn't the worst one then.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:32
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mr. stefan posted:The face transplant ending is loving idiotic and the only reason people whine about it not happening is because they misidentify why Salvation was an unenjoyable movie. Oh, I definitely agree that the face transplant ending would have been awful. But if would have been awful in a fascinating, schlocky, "oh my god, what the hell were they thinking?!!?" way. It would have changed Salvation from "a tiresome slog of a movie with nothing redeemable about it" to "a tiresome slog of a movie with a final 10 minutes that are so crazy that you have to see it to believe it." People would have talked about it for years, instead of forgetting it completely within a month. And personally, I'll always prefer an interesting failure over boring mediocrity. OneThousandMonkeys posted:I was confused as to why they were still using conventional firearms in Salvation. Pretty much everything the movies teach us about terminators is that contemporary firearms do nothing to them. It would have been nice to see some lasergun designs or really anything that looked like James Cameron's 40K-style future war. For the record, Salvation was set some 11 years before the Future War flashbacks/flashforwards in the first two movies took place. Presumably the laserguns seen in those flashbacks haven't been invented yet. The Terminators we see are all also, with the exception of Arnie at the end, explicitly stated to be less advanced models than the T-800s+ we saw the last 3 movies, so presumably that is why they are vulnerable to conventional firearms. If that isn't enough, you could also handwave that the Resistance is loading their guns with anti-material armor piercing explosive tipped rounds, or something. Still, I agree with the general point that Salvation didn't have much to connect it with what was already established about the "Terminator future," and that ultimately hurt it. Even if there are legitimate in-story justifications for why the movie failed to meet audience expectations, the end result was that it felt disconnected from the rest of the franchise.
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Dec 16, 2014 20:44
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INH5 posted:Oh, I definitely agree that the face transplant ending would have been awful. But if would have been awful in a fascinating, schlocky, "oh my god, what the hell were they thinking?!!?" way. It would have changed Salvation from "a tiresome slog of a movie with nothing redeemable about it" to "a tiresome slog of a movie with a final 10 minutes that are so crazy that you have to see it to believe it." People would have talked about it for years, instead of forgetting it completely within a month. As a longtime fan of pro wrestling, I'm long past finding a swerve or gently caress finish to be preferable to a clean and expected finale, especially at the end of a lovely match.
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Dec 16, 2014 20:53
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Caros posted:Bale shows up like... five minutes in. He is literally in the first future war scene we see and the plot cuts between him and marcus pretty consistently. Bale doesent actually *do* anything until he comes into contact with Marcus, at which point he promptly proves to be a useless cock and persona non grata, which is not surprising given that all his parts were hastily written in late in production and his character didnt even show up until it was time for him to die originally. Which would have been a major improvement, if you put aside all the matrix bullshit shenanigans in that draft. SuperMechagodzilla posted:They straight-up say at the end of the film that he deserves a second chance, implicitly after loving up so much. Why? Because the movie says so doesn't really matter, Marcus is the only character who was actually willing to do anything at the damage of his own heath and ethics. Even while knowing that the feelings that he were willing to act on in his self destruction were an unintentional glitch courtesy of a confused murderous AI. JC (subtle!) was only redeemed by.. being played by a more famous actor that thought it should be that way, nothing in the film redeems him whatsoever. Hell, the only reason he even exists is because one of his soldiers who owes his life to Marcus was willing to go back in time and gently caress his mother, John is the worst character and this crap about him being the savior of the human race is just bullshit propaganda. For him to exist a future dude had to make him, meaning that the future dude existed in a timeline without John Connor, went back in time on his own and screwed Sarah Connor spawning a timeline where their little bastard thinks that he is responsible for the future of the human race just because his helicopter Rambo mom says so. Then he manages to find an alternate future version of the same dude who hosed his mom last time and gave him a flowery story to take back in time while he rails Johns mother again, propagandizing his own birth. Self Fulfilling prophecy bullshit that only exists because of a temporal player getting some 80's trim. Spaceman Future! fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 21:30
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nexus6 posted:Also, how exactly does nuking the entire planet 'preserve the environment'? Like I said, it probably wouldn't make any more sense to me if I read the book now than it did when I read the book back in middle school.
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Dec 16, 2014 22:53
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Spaceman Future! posted:Why? Because the movie says so doesn't really matter, Marcus is the only character who was actually willing to do anything at the damage of his own heath and ethics. The point of the movie is to forgive even people who don't 'deserve' it. It's a Christian film.
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Dec 16, 2014 23:54
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They're all Christian films.
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Dec 17, 2014 00:14
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Groovelord Neato posted:They're all Christian films. Yes, but Salvation moreso.
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Dec 17, 2014 01:02
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Neo Rasa posted:I'm pretty sure his lack of eyebrows is accomplished with makeup. IIRC you can sort of notice it looking off at a couple of points, I want to say when he's in the parking lot looking back and forth from within the police car and when he's approaching the other Sarah Connor. I found I really noticed it when they showed him in profile. The prosthetic that covers them makes his brow jut out much further than normal, but you can't really tell when you look head-on.
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Dec 17, 2014 01:17
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Gatts posted:What if thoSe are Terminators in suits? Sharply dressed killing machines. Possibly from another movie Led by Patrick Bot-man.
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Dec 17, 2014 01:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Yes, but Salvation moreso. If the claim is that the movies are christian then your own point is moot. Its Marcus that is only half human, and Marcus that sacrifices himself to absolve humanity of its sins. It is John Connor that falsely claims to be the savior of humanity before and after this event, in the christian mythos this would make him the Anti-Marcus. If you want to believe the movie is telling you to forgive and follow the anti-christ ok, but I think you may be rallying up to the wrong camp. Spaceman Future! fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 01:46
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Counterpoint: there are two words in the title, and one is "salvation." Also Jesus was half-human.
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Dec 17, 2014 02:03
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Spaceman Future! posted:It is John Connor that falsely claims to be the savior of humanity before and after this event, in the christian mythos this would make him the Anti-Marcus. Sort-of. John Connor is a false prophet, but he is 'born again' because Marcus - the authentic Christ-figure - makes him a believer in the holy spirit.
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Dec 17, 2014 02:04
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Groovelord Neato posted:Man, Ellison shoulda sued again. Nothing would stop him.
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Dec 17, 2014 02:07
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INH5 posted:Oh, I definitely agree that the face transplant ending would have been awful. But if would have been awful in a fascinating, schlocky, "oh my god, what the hell were they thinking?!!?" way. It would have changed Salvation from "a tiresome slog of a movie with nothing redeemable about it" to "a tiresome slog of a movie with a final 10 minutes that are so crazy that you have to see it to believe it." People would have talked about it for years, instead of forgetting it completely within a month. I have a faint memory that a script draft had the human Skynet sympathisers/slaves see the error of their ways and use their super high tech Skynet labs to fix up John/do the face swap....but I have absolutely nothing to back that up with so maybe I just dreamt it.
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Dec 17, 2014 02:23
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Hodgepodge posted:Also Jesus was half-human. Actually, that's heresy! Marcus is both all-human and all-machine, it is one of the sacred mysteries of Terminator: Salvation.
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Dec 17, 2014 04:59
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Neo Rasa posted:One of the interviews with Arnold kind of implied that he was actually already signing on to play Kyle Reese but then during the process of going over the script more/etc. wanted to be the Terminator itself. Henricksen also was walking around pretending to stalk people/etc. to get into character. With all that in mind I think they were straight up making the movie before the switch happened. It's interesting that Christian Bale attempted the same thing (wanting a different role that what was offered him), but while it completely worked for T1, it completely hosed Salvation up. I'm guessing it's because Bale wanted to be John Connor AND he wanted the character and the plot completely re-written to pump up his ego?
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Dec 17, 2014 05:06
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Sasquatch! posted:It's interesting that Christian Bale attempted the same thing (wanting a different role that what was offered him), but while it completely worked for T1, it completely hosed Salvation up. I'm guessing it's because Bale wanted to be John Connor AND he wanted the character and the plot completely re-written to pump up his ego? It could be that the script sucked and he wanted rewrites, which lots of big name actors do. It doesn't always have to be a malevolent plot by a petty ego.
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Dec 17, 2014 05:26
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At the same time I strongly remember an early interview with him where he straight up says he signed on because of the amazing incredible script and how great the story is and stuff. I mean of course no one is going to be like "Oh yeah this multi million dollar summer flick I signed on for is awful, don't see it" a year before it comes out but it seems like a weird thing to even bring up if he wasn't at least sort of serious.Hodgepodge posted:Counterpoint: there are two words in the title, and one is "salvation." Also Jesus was half-human. Terminator Salvation: The End Begins you mean. The End Begins because people accept John Connor, the anti-christ, the beast, as their leader. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 05:49
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I thought that was because the Bible also has a rad trailer for the sequel where God comes and kicks rear end at the end?
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Dec 17, 2014 06:42
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:It could be that the script sucked and he wanted rewrites, which lots of big name actors do. It doesn't always have to be a malevolent plot by a petty ego. 1. Bale was offered role of Marcus Wright. 2. Bale decided he'd rather be John Connor than Marcus Wright. 3. Bale notices that John Connor isn't in the movie a whole lot so he demands rewrites with the sole purpose of inserting the character of John Connor more into the movie.
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Dec 17, 2014 07:36
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The character of Marcus Wright was terrible to begin with.
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Dec 17, 2014 09:56
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