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Kyrie eleison posted:Marxism-Leninism is a heritage that is claimed by Trotsky, Stalin, and Mao. It's not. Trotskyists consider themselves both Marxist and Leninist, but not 'Marxist-Leninist' since that was the official Stalinist term for Stalinism. Trotsky himself never used the term 'Marxism-Leninism' to describe what he considered "proper" Leninist thought, he used the term 'Bolshevik-Leninism' during his opposition time. Kyrie eleison posted:You just reveal your personal preference with this claim. Is it historical accuracy and not whitewashing Leninism? Kyrie eleison posted:There are good reason to doubt Stalin's fidelity to Lenin, considering he immediately purged all of the Old Bolsheviks after his death. Maybe Trotsky had a point. Lenin's ideas failed in his own time, so I don't know how anyone would be able to stay true to them. Why would you as a Catholic want to lend credence to the idea that Stalinism was somehow an unfair corruption of Leninism anyway?
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Dec 17, 2014 09:54
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Technogeek posted:Why did people think it was a good idea to build a religion around a carpenter who got killed by a piece of wood? To be fair there were also some nails involved.
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Dec 17, 2014 09:55
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itsnice2bnice posted:It's not. Trotskyists consider themselves both Marxist and Leninist, but not 'Marxist-Leninist' since that was the official Stalinist term for Stalinism. You're splitting hairs, man. Trotsky certainly believed he was Marxist, and that Bolshevism was Marxist. Just because that particular phrase may not have been used by him does not mean he did not believe he was "Marxist-Leninist." quote:Lenin's ideas failed in his own time, so I don't know how anyone would be able to stay true to them. I am just in favor of accuracy. Was Stalin true to Lenin? I'm not convinced. (Again: citing the Purge)
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Dec 17, 2014 10:04
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It's basically historical record that Trotsky and Stalin completely distanced themselves to each other. We may never know what the hell Trotsky actually meant, but we do know for certain that he basically considered his own version of Marxism as a distinct entity and used a separate term to refer to it, as did everyone who followed his particular philosophy.
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Dec 17, 2014 10:08
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platedlizard posted:To be fair there were also some nails involved. Nails are still part of carpentry, though.
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Dec 17, 2014 10:48
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OP you seem like a real piece of poo poo but I hope you find peace and tranquility and maybe gently caress a dude some day. Namaste
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Dec 17, 2014 10:50
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What the hell happened to this thread, I read the first page and the last page and nothing makes sense.
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Dec 17, 2014 10:55
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Kyrie eleison posted:You're splitting hairs, man. Trotsky certainly believed he was Marxist, and that Bolshevism was Marxist. Sure. Kyrie eleison posted:Just because that particular phrase may not have been used by him does not mean he did not believe he was "Marxist-Leninist." Again, Trotskyists consider themselves both Marxist and Leninist, but not 'Marxist-Leninist'. That particular phrase refers to the official state ideology of the USSR under Stalin. Kyrie eleison posted:I am just in favor of accuracy. Was Stalin true to Lenin? I'm not convinced. (Again: citing the Purge) Lenin also conducted numerous purges in the party and he wasn't averse to having large groups of people murdered either. Again, why would any Christian want to lend credence to the false notion that there is a distinction between Leninism and Stalinism? The only people who do so are Marxists trying to whitewash Leninism or just plain trolling.
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Dec 17, 2014 10:58
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platedlizard posted:What the hell happened to this thread, I read the first page and the last page and nothing makes sense. It's only appropriate that we move from discussing religions to discussing secular religions
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Dec 17, 2014 11:09
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So was Jesus a Marxist or what? Based on the sermon on the mount he holds a lot of beliefs that are compatible with the ideology, and many people have died needlessly in his name.
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Dec 17, 2014 11:11
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Ddraig posted:So was Jesus a Marxist or what? Based on the sermon on the mount he holds a lot of beliefs that are compatible with the ideology, and many people have died needlessly in his name. No, you got it backwards, Marx was actually Jesus, Lenin was Paul, Stalin was Constantine, and Trotsky was Henry VIII
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Dec 17, 2014 11:13
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itsnice2bnice posted:Again, Trotskyists consider themselves both Marxist and Leninist, but not 'Marxist-Leninist'. Again, that is spitting hairs. Nobody can really be buying this argument. quote:Lenin also conducted numerous purges in the party and he wasn't averse to having large groups of people murdered either. I'm not saying Lenin was a great man. I oppose communism and view it as evil. Just for accuracy's sake, I was arguing that Stalinism and Marxism-Leninism are not strictly identical, philosophically. I mean, Marxism-Leninism ends at Lenin. Anything after that is just claiming his tradition. (I will note here how amusing it is that Lenin has superseded Marx in Communist theory.)
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Dec 17, 2014 11:15
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Typo posted:No, you got it backwards, Marx was actually Jesus, Lenin was Paul, Stalin was Constantine, and Trotsky was Henry VIII Who was Gramsci? Is he Pope Francis?
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Dec 17, 2014 11:19
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Ddraig posted:Who was Gramsci? Is he Pope Francis? Joseph Smith obvsly
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Dec 17, 2014 11:22
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Kyrie eleison posted:Wookiepedia says the book was likely written between 66–70 AD. drat. That's Gotta Hurt. Yeah I'll admit I'm wrong about that one. My bad. But hey, at least I'll own up to my fuckups and admit I got that wrong. quote:The Sadducees are given plenty of trouble in the gospels, anyway. They are present at the Sanhedrin that dooms Jesus, and elsewhere. While they are the stricter priestly authority, who completely denied the resurrection, Pharisees were basically the popular authority, and were still extremely important to the Judean authority. Yeah the Sadducees are mentioned quite a bit, yet the Pharisees are the ones who get the biggest thrashing by Jesus. It is interesting to note though that my statements still stand. Matthew and Luke are the ones written later (around 90 and 100) and those are the two that contain the "Woe to you Pharisees" speech, which is the harshest condemnation Jesus gave of them in the Gospels. Matthew does mention the Pharisees and definitely doesn't present them in a positive light, but nowhere does Jesus call them "broods of vipers" and say that they're "sons of Hell" like he does in the Gospels written after the fall of the Temple. This is a pretty good indication that these were probably influenced by Christian views of the Pharisees at the time they were written, probably due to conflicts between the groups.
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Dec 17, 2014 11:39
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Kyrie eleison posted:Just for accuracy's sake, I was arguing that Stalinism and Marxism-Leninism are not strictly identical, philosophically. Except they basically are. Saying they're different is like saying different sects of Christianity are different when in the end they're all the same bullshit. gently caress communism.
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Dec 17, 2014 12:28
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But the different sects of Christianity are plenty different so you're basically saying Kyrie is right.
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Dec 17, 2014 12:38
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Karl Marx has a far more compelling message than Jesus because he actually offers something that might be real. Jesus offers nothing except vague promises after you die. Also, during the Spanish Civil War, the catholic clergy were fascist agents, and in all honesty they should have been eliminated entirely from Republican territory for this. Clergy in general are reactionary forces and there's nothing wrong with getting rid of them.
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Dec 17, 2014 12:40
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Kyrie eleison posted:Again, that is spitting hairs. Nobody can really be buying this argument. It's not an argument, it's a non-controversial fact about who coined a specific phrase and which groups did or didn't use it to describe themselves. Kyrie eleison posted:I'm not saying Lenin was a great man. I oppose communism and view it as evil. Just for accuracy's sake, I was arguing that Stalinism and Marxism-Leninism are not strictly identical, philosophically. 'Marxism-Leninism' wasn't a thing until after Lenin was dead. Lenin never used the term 'Marxism-Leninism' or even just 'Leninism' to describe his own ideas and opinions. Turning Lenin into a distinct ideology only happened after his death, because it was part of the power struggle and the way in which competing groups tried to gain legitimacy by profiling themselves as his true heirs. The Stalinists used the term 'Marxism-Leninism' and the Left Opposition headed by Trotsky used the term 'Bolshevik-Leninism' to describe their "proper" interpretation of Lenin. So Trotsky would never consider himself to be a 'Marxist-Leninist' despite being both a Marxist and a Leninist.
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Dec 17, 2014 13:09
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Kyrie eleison posted:Uh, didn't I say people are obligated to pay taxes to a just state? For someone who claims to be a Christian, you are not very Christ like.
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Dec 17, 2014 16:28
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CommieGIR posted:For someone who claims to be a Christian, you are not very Christ like. Well he doesn't ascribe to that Hippy-Dippie foolishness. The pope can be all humble and stuff but he believes that they have to aggressively spread the faith. And by aggressively I mean he thinks that the catholic church should have a military force.
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Dec 17, 2014 16:29
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CommieGIR posted:For someone who claims to be a Christian, you are not very Christ like. Christ was a glutton, winebibber and a friend of publicans and sinners. He also had a bit of a temper. At least when he flipped those tables he had the skills to repair them.
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Dec 17, 2014 16:31
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Caros posted:Well he doesn't ascribe to that Hippy-Dippie foolishness. The pope can be all humble and stuff but he believes that they have to aggressively spread the faith. And by aggressively I mean he thinks that the catholic church should have a military force. Well fascists have certainly foundered as of late, maybe some more direct martial support from the Catholic Church can shore up Francoism and monarchism around the world and rid us of this scourge of republicanism and liberal values and social democracy.
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Dec 17, 2014 16:34
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The Pope needs to give the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith its old purpose back. It hasn't Inquired in many, many years.
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Dec 17, 2014 16:37
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Twelve by Pies posted:Yeah except the verses don't say anything about whether the state is just or not, it literally just says "Pay your taxes" and you went to great lengths to explain why it's okay to not pay your taxes because the government does bad things sometimes when the verses do not say that or even imply that in any way. So as I said, it was great to see you try and explain how it actually doesn't say what it very clearly says. I always interpreted that bit as being precisely to illustrate the difference between divine and temporal justice. Caesar doesn't have God's blessing, but he also doesn't need it, he rules by mortal authority and so you should respect that with mortal things, like your money. Give your soul to God and your money to Caesar. Which works nicely because it ties in with the idea that God doesn't give a poo poo for your money, there's nothing Caesar can ask of you that God would care if you gave him. So yeah, pay taxes to Nazi Germany, because it doesn't matter to God. Seems simple enough to me? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 17:25
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Can I just say I am not at all surprised to find out Kyrie is a libertarian shithead? Fits right in with the whole "there's a system that I say works 100% despite real life handing me bucket after bucket of evidence to the contrary"
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Dec 17, 2014 17:47
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Can I just say I am not at all surprised to find out Kyrie is a libertarian shithead? Fits right in with the whole "there's a system that I say works 100% despite real life handing me bucket after bucket of evidence to the contrary" But...but Libertarianism is the only way we can find out who truly has the Lord's favour and has been raised to positions of garishly profligate wealth through their piety and faith and should be lauded in the streets and the marketplace and the churches as our Natural Social Elites  And once you stamp Jesus' face on a coin of gold and call it a shekel, loving and storing it up is loving and storing up God, and the repressive private armies you hire to suppress the thieving poors are doing God's work in exchange for God's sweet sweet gold.  And, just as the Lord in His Wisdom separated the races on the various continents, so too would Religious Covenant Communities create a beautiful patchwork quilt of human diversity with homelands for each volk's aparte ontwikkeling and voluntary easements to expel democrats, communists, homosexuals, environmentalists, integrationists, etc etc from civilized Christian society. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 17:52
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Can I just say I am not at all surprised to find out Kyrie is a libertarian shithead? Fits right in with the whole "there's a system that I say works 100% despite real life handing me bucket after bucket of evidence to the contrary" He's an unrepentant gamergater, so I always figured libertarian /supply-side Jesus type. Well, either that or an MRAtheist trolling people.
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Dec 17, 2014 18:00
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rkajdi posted:He's an unrepentant gamergater, so I always figured libertarian /supply-side Jesus type. Well, either that or an MRAtheist trolling people. We should have a big 'Religion/Libertarian Megathread' at this point.
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Dec 17, 2014 18:00
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rkajdi posted:He's an unrepentant gamergater, so I always figured libertarian /supply-side Jesus type. Well, either that or an MRAtheist trolling people. Thanks for the search idea, turns out Kyrie is actually a huge fan (perhaps a warrior, one might say) of social justice and a believer in the inborn privilege of a certain notorious group of people! Kyrie Eleison posted:Do you all who critique MRAs all the time even know the basics of their teachings? Claiming to not know anything about "female privilege" or what rights men claim, seems like willful ignorance to me. I guess that's what happens when you focus on suppression and mockery rather than engagement. 
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Dec 17, 2014 18:43
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VitalSigns posted:Thanks for the search idea, turns out Kyrie is actually a huge fan (perhaps a warrior, one might say) of social justice and a believer in the inborn privilege of a certain notorious group of people! Aren't you the people that literally swear off women as potential partners? (Lol)
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Dec 17, 2014 19:20
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Kyrie eleison posted:Aren't you the people that literally swear off women as potential partners? (Lol) Er, are you talking about gay people? Generally that doesn't really require much 'swearing off' in the sense I don't have to 'swear off' eating poo. It's not something I've ever really wanted to do.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:22
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OwlFancier posted:Er, are you talking about gay people? So you're saying you find women repulsive. Fascinating
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Dec 17, 2014 19:23
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Kyrie eleison posted:So you're saying you find women repulsive. Fascinating What?
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Dec 17, 2014 19:25
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Kyrie eleison posted:Aren't you the people that literally swear off women as potential partners? (Lol) Personally? Uh no, I'm like a Kinsey 5. Women are hot, dude. I just usually prefer men, but who knows whom I'll end up with. But those gold/platinum star gays, those are the real misogynists amirite? Because of course homosexuality is a choice just like racism and not an integral part of who you are or anything.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:28
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OwlFancier posted:What? You know, repulsive. Like poo. Women are poo in your example.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:28
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Kyrie eleison posted:So you're saying you find women repulsive. Fascinating Unlike the way you find marrying a black woman and the thought of raising halfbreed cafe au lait children repulsive, for him it's not subject to conscious choice.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:29
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Kyrie eleison posted:You know, repulsive. Like poo. Women are poo in your example. What are you even on about?
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Dec 17, 2014 19:33
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OwlFancier posted:What are you even on about? I think he's projecting.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:37
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OwlFancier posted:What are you even on about? There's a talking-point/troll among conservatives that it's actually gay men who are misogynists because they don't want to have sex with women. This dovetails with their usual rapey beliefs that sex is something someone is owed and that not wanting to have sex with someone makes you (especially if you're a woman) a man-hating bitch or ice queen or whatever. They also will describe heterosexual marriage as a true commitment to diversity in marriage, and I thought you liked diversity libs, but hypocritical eh?  (but not too diverse please, blacks and Mexicans should stick to their own kind thank-you-very-much)
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Dec 17, 2014 19:37
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