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ilifinicus posted:Mack was this lovable dude that just bro'd the hell up with Fitz in his period of feeling out of the loop, while Tripp's character seemed more about throwing funny one liners. My defining moment for Tripp has to be the Hub scene where he gives Simmons his knife to gain he trust while poo poo's going down, and he's not been very interesting since then. While Mack just show up with an model car of Lola that he's gonna use to get Coulson to let him touch his baby car with? I'll take Mack anyday I loved that scene but I think it might have been largely because I had been spoiled that Garrett was a traitor so I was just assuming Tripp was as well so there was the added tension. I do remember one of the complaints about early last session was that Shield had no moral ambiguity and were pretty much always in the right. I wish I had suck with the show while it was airing to see the reaction from those people.
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Dec 16, 2014 20:04
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I tend to be more generous than most, but If I think a show has any potential what so ever I tend to give it at least one season. The first batch episodes of a season(1-8) or so are generally done in a bubble. The only feedback you are getting is from those you have selected to be the test audience. I could totally see a test audience loving those early episodes. Once you get past that first bunch of episodes is when you start to see the real quality of the show-runners as that is when you get feedback from a "live environment" and how well they are able to implement said feedback to fix the problems. and even from like Episode 10 on, the writing and plotting got much much better and more interesting. Not trying to blame anyone for quitting as I just have time to spare and willing to watch something if it's not good, if I think it has some kinda potential. Kinda the opposite of what happened with Glee, Glee's first batch of episodes were great. Then they got feedback and starting messing around with things because of feedback and that show essentially got killed.
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Dec 16, 2014 20:06
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I do remember one of the complaints about early last session was that Shield had no moral ambiguity and were pretty much always in the right. I wish I had suck with the show while it was airing to see the reaction from those people. Eh, the show smoothly moved into saying that SHIELD is still great and wonderful, it's just that there were rogue Hydra elements involved. It's not like there's been any examination by the show or soul-searching by the characters as to the obvious implications of SHIELD fitting Hydra like a glove. Am I misremembering? What moral ambiguity did we end up with? Was there some mission that Coulson and crew did that they later lamented because it turned out their blind loyalty to SHIELD had specifically helped Hydra, or anything like that?
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Dec 16, 2014 22:04
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Sir Kodiak posted:Am I misremembering? What moral ambiguity did we end up with? Was there some mission that Coulson and crew did that they later lamented because it turned out their blind loyalty to SHIELD had specifically helped Hydra, or anything like that? I don't recall anything this specific, but Coulson's experience with the TAHITI project (and the reveal of his earlier complicity with it) kind of speaks to that idea in a broader sense. His faith in SHIELD's essential goodness blinded him to the reality of what TAHITI was actually about. But in retrospect, it's clear the project was unethical. It was linked to HYDRA, actually: Garrett intentionally sought it out, not just as a way to cheat death, but a way to grow more powerful. Coulson essentially aided a project that was used alongside Centipede and the Deathlok program. It's just easy to forget that, because Coulson blew up the TAHITI lab.
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Dec 16, 2014 22:47
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Sir Kodiak posted:Eh, the show smoothly moved into saying that SHIELD is still great and wonderful, it's just that there were rogue Hydra elements involved. It's not like there's been any examination by the show or soul-searching by the characters as to the obvious implications of SHIELD fitting Hydra like a glove. Depends on how you interpret it I guess, but Coulson's whole "trust the system" mentality was essentially blown out of the water because of 1) the mission when Ward and Fitz weren't given an exit strategy, turning them into "acceptable losses" if the mission went south, and 2) the later revelation that HYDRA had basically rigged the entire system to murder everyone. All that trust Coulson put into it was poisoned from the beginning, so I think the lesson, or part of it, from all that is trusting even what you might think is the most air-tight and noble system has serious risks attached to it.
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Dec 16, 2014 22:48
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Also the 'acceptable losses' was a position held by Victoria Hand, who turned out not to be Hydra at all.
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Dec 16, 2014 23:14
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Xealot posted:I don't recall anything this specific, but Coulson's experience with the TAHITI project (and the reveal of his earlier complicity with it) kind of speaks to that idea in a broader sense. His faith in SHIELD's essential goodness blinded him to the reality of what TAHITI was actually about. But in retrospect, it's clear the project was unethical. I disagree that Coulson was blinded to the reality of anything, as they retconned the statement at the end of last season that the TAHITI project was meant to bring an Avenger back from the dead by showing the flashbacks of Coulson interviewing the SHIELD volunteers. There was a clearly-defined benefit: The healing of otherwise terminal diseases or fatal injuries. Not just for Avengers, but SHIELD, too. And once the terrible side-effects started showing up, Coulson expressed his objections to the project, and as far as Coulson knew, it was shut down. Those soldiers guarding the facility were on strict orders to kill ANYONE not authorized, not SHIELD or HYDRA. And honestly, it seemed like Coulson coming back from the dead was the first that anyone outside of Fury, May, and compartmentalization had heard about it, Garrett included, which was why he was helping Coulson so much: to get his own hands on TAHITI. We know that Hydra seemed to have been concentrated mostly in Insight and STRIKE, nothing thus far that we've seen in AOS contradicts that.
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Dec 16, 2014 23:17
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All of the "morally ambiguous" stuff you're listing is about how SHIELD treats its own agents. For the agency itself to be morally ambiguous I'd think there'd have to be more of a question of whether it should even exist at all, which isn't something I recall seeing in the show.
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Dec 16, 2014 23:19
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Sir Kodiak posted:All of the "morally ambiguous" stuff you're listing is about how SHIELD treats its own agents. For the agency itself to be morally ambiguous I'd think there'd have to be more of a question of whether it should even exist at all, which isn't something I recall seeing in the show. That was Cap 2 in a nutshell.
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Dec 16, 2014 23:22
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hamsystem posted:That was Cap 2 in a nutshell. Right. Agents of SHIELD hasn't embraced the most interesting plot point from Winter Soldier, where Captain America says that the whole thing has to go. They haven't addressed at all how Coulson reconciles his near-worship of Cap and him spearheading the rebuilding of an agency that Cap says is beyond saving. It's possible he just doesn't know Cap's opinion, but then that's the show avoiding the question.
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Dec 16, 2014 23:27
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Sir Kodiak posted:Right. Agents of SHIELD hasn't embraced the most interesting plot point from Winter Soldier, where Captain America says that the whole thing has to go. They haven't addressed at all how Coulson reconciles his near-worship of Cap and him spearheading the rebuilding of an agency that Cap says is beyond saving. It's possible he just doesn't know Cap's opinion, but then that's the show avoiding the question. Eh, they've touched on it, albeit indirectly. That was part of the hand-off between Fury and Coulson in the finale of the first season. It's implicit that Fury sees the problems with the old SHIELD and that's why he isn't rebuilding it himself but instead handing it off to the Captain America idolizing Phil Coulson in the hopes that Coulson will rebuild SHIELD better than it was before.
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Dec 16, 2014 23:36
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Sir Kodiak posted:Right. Agents of SHIELD hasn't embraced the most interesting plot point from Winter Soldier, where Captain America says that the whole thing has to go. They haven't addressed at all how Coulson reconciles his near-worship of Cap and him spearheading the rebuilding of an agency that Cap says is beyond saving. It's possible he just doesn't know Cap's opinion, but then that's the show avoiding the question. Hopefully it gets addressed in Cap 3. It seems like an obvious hook with Tony wanting SHIELD in place after he realizes using an AI to police the world may be a bad idea, and Cap wanting to keep it abolished, even with an idealist like Coulson running things.
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Dec 16, 2014 23:36
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jng2058 posted:Eh, they've touched on it, albeit indirectly. That was part of the hand-off between Fury and Coulson in the finale of the first season. It's implicit that Fury sees the problems with the old SHIELD and that's why he isn't rebuilding it himself but instead handing it off to the Captain America idolizing Phil Coulson in the hopes that Coulson will rebuild SHIELD better than it was before. I'd be even more specific and say that Fury sees himself as part of the problem with the old SHIELD, but that's just nitpicking.
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Dec 17, 2014 02:58
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Coulson seems to be making a distinction between "old SHIELD" and "new SHIELD" especially regarding things like acceptable losses.
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Dec 17, 2014 03:41
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Floppychop posted:Coulson seems to be making a distinction between "old SHIELD" and "new SHIELD" especially regarding things like acceptable losses. It's kind of unfair because his new SHIELD is tiny and its easier to care about every single life. The small numbers he has is already hurting him in the fight against HYDRA too, so it can't really be argued that a smaller organization works better. Though I guess having a super powered person on your side again is a step forward.
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Dec 17, 2014 03:47
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SwissArmyDruid posted:I disagree that Coulson was blinded to the reality of anything, as they retconned the statement at the end of last season that the TAHITI project was meant to bring an Avenger back from the dead by showing the flashbacks of Coulson interviewing the SHIELD volunteers. He knew what the project did. What I mean by "blind" is that he just accepted the explanation in this tacit and naive way; "oh, it's to resurrect a dead Avenger...sounds good to me!" He continued to work on the project after it became clear there was a terrible cost, because of his faith in the organization. He trusted SHIELD, so all this must be worth it. The entire point of Winter Soldier was to challenge that belief system. The stated agenda and methodology of HYDRA-as-SHIELD wasn't actually outwardly different, it's just that the audience was shown the reality of what that agenda means. HYDRA didn't succeed by encouraging people to defect, but by fostering the belief that true faith in SHIELD *was* HYDRA. It's ultimately Captain America who defects; everyone else was just still complicit in a system that appeared identical. Coulson wasn't blind because he didn't understand what TAHITI was about, but because he actually trusted what they told him it was about.
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Dec 17, 2014 03:52
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Sir Kodiak posted:Am I misremembering? What moral ambiguity did we end up with? Was there some mission that Coulson and crew did that they later lamented because it turned out their blind loyalty to SHIELD had specifically helped Hydra, or anything like that? There was the bit when Garrett and Ward were raiding the prison and cracked open the store house for all stuff that was supposedly destroyed by the Slingshot. Garrett mentions that everything was stored there under Fury's orders. SwissArmyDruid posted:I disagree that Coulson was blinded to the reality of anything, as they retconned the statement at the end of last season that the TAHITI project was meant to bring an Avenger back from the dead by showing the flashbacks of Coulson interviewing the SHIELD volunteers. That wasn't a retcon, they were test subjects to make sure it would work before it was needed. Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 04:01
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I mean there's a bunch of moral ambiguity about SHIELD all over the place, it's just that a lot of it isn't overt and constantly harped on. Like the bit where someone asks Coulson if SHIELD or HYDRA was running the program to secretly experiment on people with powers to make them stronger and he honestly can't say. It's not the focus of the episode, it's just another line that comes up to remind you for a moment that the reason HYDRA could do what it did is that so much of SHIELD was already down for fascism. It pops up here and there pretty much constantly, even up to Bobbi's conversation with Coulson about how Fury would deal with a situation. SHIELD was not filled with nice people out to distribute hugs to all the world's children.
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Dec 17, 2014 04:11
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Boogaleeboo posted:I mean there's a bunch of moral ambiguity about SHIELD all over the place, it's just that a lot of it isn't overt and constantly harped on. Like the bit where someone asks Coulson if SHIELD or HYDRA was running the program to secretly experiment on people with powers to make them stronger and he honestly can't say. It's not the focus of the episode, it's just another line that comes up to remind you for a moment that the reason HYDRA could do what it did is that so much of SHIELD was already down for fascism. It pops up here and there pretty much constantly, even up to Bobbi's conversation with Coulson about how Fury would deal with a situation. SHIELD was not filled with nice people out to distribute hugs to all the world's children. Also Mack several times openly questioned (to the viewer) what the gently caress was going on even with nu-SHIELD and whether Coulson's agenda had merit. Or sanity.
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Dec 17, 2014 04:25
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hamsystem posted:Hopefully it gets addressed in Cap 3. It seems like an obvious hook with Tony wanting SHIELD in place after he realizes using an AI to police the world may be a bad idea, and Cap wanting to keep it abolished, even with an idealist like Coulson running things. I don't think the Avengers are ever going to find out that Coulson is still alive. PriorMarcus posted:Also the 'acceptable losses' was a position held by Victoria Hand, who turned out not to be Hydra at all. Victoria Hand was clearly an extremist, though, even if she wasn't HYDRA. You can see that clearly when she offers Ward the chance to execute Garrett while they're transporting him to his prison.
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Dec 17, 2014 06:41
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Coulson's new SHIELD isn't all that great either on a person by person basis. Mack for example was explained away by him saying, "That wasn't Mack." The guy just fell down a big hole, oh well he's gone now. Or transferring Ward. Here's this highly trained agent that's killed who knows how many people, watch him closely guys, off my hands now. Wards kills a few more people and gets away. It's not like we have Night Night bullets that could keep him sedated for the entirety of the trip or anything. Obviously some of it is for the show, but things could be avoided that aren't and people die directly due to Coulson's agenda.
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Dec 17, 2014 17:05
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Yeah Cap was 100% right about SHIELD. We do need something looking into all the aliens and magic and comic book super science poo poo, but it's not SHIELD.
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Dec 17, 2014 17:25
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Ward escaping is %100 his older brother's fault. He was in proper government custody, Shield no longer has any power there.
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Dec 17, 2014 17:29
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Also at that point Mack was a possessed dude trying to strangle everyone. That really wasn't Mack, unless you think Mack would really try to kill Bobbi or his best bro ever Fitz. Coulson made the right call there.
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Dec 17, 2014 18:04
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|Ziggy| posted:Coulson's new SHIELD isn't all that great either on a person by person basis. Mack for example was explained away by him saying, "That wasn't Mack." The guy just fell down a big hole, oh well he's gone now. Or transferring Ward. Here's this highly trained agent that's killed who knows how many people, watch him closely guys, off my hands now. Wards kills a few more people and gets away. It's not like we have Night Night bullets that could keep him sedated for the entirety of the trip or anything. Being "better" doesn't mean never having any casualties, that's pretty much impossible when you're running a spy organization whose everyday mission is to fight a terrorist organization that wants to kill a lot of people. It's about limiting them (as Coulson talks about in Puerto Rico when discussing his differences from Fury with Bobbi), and taking a more human based approach rather than previous S.H.I.E.L.D.'s approach, which had become a Hydra-esque "whatever we need to do to keep people safe, regardless of the collateral damage and consequences."
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Dec 17, 2014 18:09
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TARDISman posted:Also at that point Mack was a possessed dude trying to strangle everyone. That really wasn't Mack, unless you think Mack would really try to kill Bobbi or his best bro ever Fitz. Coulson made the right call there.
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Dec 17, 2014 18:40
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I'm really hoping that we get another certain half-alien SHIELD member in the mix. The show runners even have a family connection to her.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:50
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I'm really hoping that we get another certain half-alien SHIELD member in the mix. The show runners even have a family connection to her. Brand isn't in SHIELD!
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Dec 17, 2014 19:53
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Codependent Poster posted:Brand isn't in SHIELD! I think she is also considered part of the X franchise.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:59
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They already got Madame Hydra. They should be happy with what they have.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:40
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The Sharmat posted:Yeah Cap was 100% right about SHIELD. We do need something looking into all the aliens and magic and comic book super science poo poo, but it's not SHIELD. Of course not, it's S.W.O.R.D. Although who knows if they're going to bring that into the MCU.
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Dec 17, 2014 21:16
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I can see them holding off until after Infinity War, or during.
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Dec 17, 2014 21:23
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edit: never mind.
SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 22:06
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EC posted:Of course not, it's S.W.O.R.D. Although who knows if they're going to bring that into the MCU. Wasn't the blonde agent/neighbor/nurse in Cap2 the head of S.W.O.R.D. in the comics?
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Dec 17, 2014 22:09
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Burning_Monk posted:Wasn't the blonde agent/neighbor/nurse in Cap2 the head of S.W.O.R.D. in the comics? No that is Sharon Carter, she is just his main love interest and a SHIELD agent/brainwashed/murderer of Cap in the comics. The head of SWORD is Abigail Brand and she is Beast's girlfriend.
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Dec 17, 2014 22:12
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mikeraskol posted:Being "better" doesn't mean never having any casualties, that's pretty much impossible when you're running a spy organization whose everyday mission is to fight a terrorist organization that wants to kill a lot of people. It's about limiting them (as Coulson talks about in Puerto Rico when discussing his differences from Fury with Bobbi), and taking a more human based approach rather than previous S.H.I.E.L.D.'s approach, which had become a Hydra-esque "whatever we need to do to keep people safe, regardless of the collateral damage and consequences." It didn't become HYDRA-esque. It WAS HYDRA. That's why S.H.I.E.L.D. needed to be stopped. Fury figured it out, and knew that Cap was pretty much the only person he could trust to shut it down.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:43
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Kheldarn posted:It didn't become HYDRA-esque. It WAS HYDRA. That's why S.H.I.E.L.D. needed to be stopped. Fury figured it out, and knew that Cap was pretty much the only person he could trust to shut it down. Fury wasn't HYDRA when he commissioned those crazy pre-cog ships, though. It was people like Fury doing what they thought was right and not worrying about the consequences that was the problem with SHIELD. Fury eventually saw that, or saw enough to switch sides like a good spy, and let Cap do his thing taking it down.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:53
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EC posted:Fury wasn't HYDRA when he commissioned those crazy pre-cog ships, though. It was people like Fury doing what they thought was right and not worrying about the consequences that was the problem with SHIELD. Fury eventually saw that, or saw enough to switch sides like a good spy, and let Cap do his thing taking it down. This post right here. Plus Fury didn't even actually see the problem, he was still insisting that SHIELD could be saved towards the end of the movie. Cap had to put his foot down and say burn it all down, and Fury finally relents.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:56
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Thing is, Fury didn't even relent then, he did what he always does: He agreed in the face of what he percieved as a greater authority, much like he did with Pierce much earlier. Then goes behind their back and does what he wanted to anyways, via Coulson. Fury is kind of a liar and shouldn't be trusted and it's pretty awesome.
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Dec 18, 2014 05:58
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Moriatti posted:Thing is, Fury didn't even relent then, he did what he always does: He agreed in the face of what he percieved as a greater authority, much like he did with Pierce much earlier. Then goes behind their back and does what he wanted to anyways, via Coulson. I believe Tony Stark said it best: "Captain, he's _THE_ spy."
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Dec 18, 2014 07:38
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