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Moriatti posted:Thing is, Fury didn't even relent then, he did what he always does: He agreed in the face of what he percieved as a greater authority, much like he did with Pierce much earlier. Then goes behind their back and does what he wanted to anyways, via Coulson. Yeah. poo poo, even works out because Cap and co. aren't even aware Coulson's still alive. Sneaky bastard.
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Dec 18, 2014 20:13
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BlackJosh posted:Yeah. poo poo, even works out because Cap and co. aren't even aware Coulson's still alive. Sneaky bastard. It wasn't that SHIELD, as an idea, was bad. The problem was that the actual organization had become twisted and corrupted beyond repair. They did burn it down, completely. The new SHIELD isn't really a continuation of the old one, it's a new organization that kept the name and logo, and the original (totally Cap-approved) mission statement of "Protect." The original SHIELD leadership is totally gone, including Nick Fury, who came to realize that he was part of the problem. If Nick didn't really get it, he'd be trying to rebuild SHIELD himself, but he handed that job over. The guy in charge now is a man whose main trait is that he was just a decent guy, and who proved very literally that he was willing to fight to his last breath to do the right thing.
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Dec 18, 2014 20:34
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Robot Hobo posted:In the end, I really don't think Cap would mind that SHIELD is being rebuilt, IF he knew that Coulson was the one in charge. He even said that the only reason he joined SHIELD was due to the fact he trusted completely the founders. I am pretty sure that he would see Coulson is following in their footsteps, not the Hydra influenced ones.
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Dec 18, 2014 20:47
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Robot Hobo posted:a man whose main trait is that he was just a decent guy, and who Also, the whole "being dead" thing. Also, having a hacker on hand to purge any records of himself and his team while the HYDRA poo poo was going down and people could discover he was still alive. If things were different, I'm sure we would have Maria Hill: Director of SHIELD, as the part of the lead-up to Civil War. Seriously, poor Cobie Smulders. Maria Hill is, historically, one of the heavy-hitters in the Marvel universe, but she's been sidelined by an ascended extra.
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Dec 18, 2014 20:58
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bobkatt013 posted:He even said that the only reason he joined SHIELD was due to the fact he trusted completely the founders. I am pretty sure that he would see Coulson is following in their footsteps, not the Hydra influenced ones. Honestly after pretty much all his misgivings about SHIELD proved to be 100% valid I think he might have rethought this position.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:30
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So Raina is a cat now.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:33
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Raina is the MCU's version of Spyke, from X-Men Evolution.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:50
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Robot Hobo posted:It wasn't that SHIELD, as an idea, was bad. No, his entire point is it's a bad idea. Period, the end. There's no such thing as a better, now "good" SHIELD. You can't make a fascist and oppressive secret police force into something good no matter how shiny you buff it up. It should not exist on any level. Even Coulson's SHIELD is running around making major decisions about the fate of humanity all on their own with no insight from anyone. What gave them the right? Who do they answer to? When they make mistakes they get to, what, say "Our bad" to each other and go on to claim the authority to make them in the future too? Just because they are good people doesn't mean it's not superior for the country to have Talbot throw them all in a deep dark hole until they learn to cut the poo poo.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:56
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Boogaleeboo posted:No, his entire point is it's a bad idea. Period, the end. There's no such thing as a better, now "good" SHIELD. You can't make a fascist and oppressive secret police force into something good no matter how shiny you buff it up. It should not exist on any level. Even Coulson's SHIELD is running around making major decisions about the fate of humanity all on their own with no insight from anyone. SHIELD did have insight from other people. They had Alexander Pierce and the rest of the council.
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Dec 18, 2014 22:02
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Yeah and who voted them in? Who picked them, and who are they accountable to in any way? Edit: I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know how the gently caress that council came into existence.
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Dec 18, 2014 22:03
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Hopefully Agent Carter actually details how SHIELD came to be.
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Dec 18, 2014 22:13
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Boogaleeboo posted:No, his entire point is it's a bad idea. Period, the end. There's no such thing as a better, now "good" SHIELD. You can't make a fascist and oppressive secret police force into something good no matter how shiny you buff it up. It should not exist on any level. Even Coulson's SHIELD is running around making major decisions about the fate of humanity all on their own with no insight from anyone. What gave them the right? Who do they answer to? When they make mistakes they get to, what, say "Our bad" to each other and go on to claim the authority to make them in the future too? Just because they are good people doesn't mean it's not superior for the country to have Talbot throw them all in a deep dark hole until they learn to cut the poo poo. In a universe with Galactus and Thanos periodically deciding to knock on earth's doorbell and any number of other supernatural powers germinating in ways that could threaten the planet, perhaps an organization dedicated to the defense of earth has a bit more merit, even if its methods are secretive and it operates without a transparent mandate. I think trying to apply our utopic bureaucratic ideals to a organization made up of literal superpeople with alien technology is a bit misguided.
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Dec 18, 2014 22:40
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Galactus doesn't exist in the MCU (he's part of the Fantastic Four franchise) and nobody on Earth knows about Thanos. So at best the justification is Loki, who gets the poo poo kicked out of him by an Earthling in The Avengers. Nothing in the MCU has produced a death toll comparable to actual attacks on American soil in the real world. That doesn't make for a particularly compelling argument for an illegal, secretive totalitarian spy organization. The idea that Cap would be okay with SHIELD merely under new leadership is hard to reconcile with his behavior in Cap 2.
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Dec 18, 2014 22:55
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Are you forgetting the part where Cap worked for SHIELD for 2 years before HYDRA re-emerged? Obviously there is some form of SHIELD he was ok with. It wasn't until Fury showed him the secret programs that he started having serious doubts and disagreements. Also, Loki was defeated by the Avengers Initiative, a SHIELD program. Cap would obviously be OK with some form of agency that does the work he was doing, just without all the secret human rights violations.
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Dec 18, 2014 23:06
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ToastyPotato posted:Are you forgetting the part where Cap worked for SHIELD for 2 years before HYDRA re-emerged? Sure, he'd be okay with a form of SHIELD that was radically unlike what it turned out to be once Cap understood what SHIELD was. So radically dissimilar that reusing the name would be crazy and set a bad example. He might have been okay with SHIELD as it was when Peggy Carter helped found it. But as his visit to see Peggy illustrated, SHIELD has almost completely forgotten what it once was. And there's no reason to think that the guy who's been all about compartmentalizing information since taking it over (one of Cap's key complaints in Winter Soldier) would change Cap's mind. ToastyPotato posted:Also, Loki was defeated by the Avengers Initiative, a SHIELD program. Okay? He was defeated by half a dozen people, all but one of which are from Earth, with the one alien being one of the least consequential members of the team. You can't justify the entire apparatus of SHIELD based on it having a minor side-project that happened to put a few competent people in the same room as each other. Loki wasn't that big a threat. ToastyPotato posted:Cap would obviously be OK with some form of agency that does the work he was doing, just without all the secret human rights violations. The work we saw him doing was rescuing hostages in international waters. I don't think anyone is arguing that Cap is for disbanding the US Armed Forces.
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Dec 18, 2014 23:20
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I think that was a case of "The organization is what it is, maybe I can minimize the damage and keep it from becoming too bad if I'm inside." Then it turned out that no, no he couldn't. The rot was too deep. Thus his "Burn it down." stance in Cap 2.
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Dec 18, 2014 23:20
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spookygonk posted:Was a tad surprised Whitehall was (apparently) killed so easily, especially for a man to have reversed the signs of aging (with this one weird tip). One weird tip, discovered in a mom.
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Dec 18, 2014 23:30
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Irish Joe posted:So Raina is a cat now. She could be the Raina in the comics, who is a dinosaur lady. Either way, the TF fetish demographic is locked in.
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Dec 19, 2014 00:14
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Sir Kodiak posted:Sure, he'd be okay with a form of SHIELD that was radically unlike what it turned out to be once Cap understood what SHIELD was. So radically dissimilar that reusing the name would be crazy and set a bad example. I'm not trying to say he would be OK with Coulson's current SHIELD. I am saying he would obviously be ok with SOME KIND of SHIELD. As you mentioned, he obviously wasn't against the basic concept as designed by Peggy and co. Basically, a new arm of the government to deal with super threats, as opposed to forcing the military or the CIA to also deal with that stuff. A department specializing in super-threats isn't inherently a bad idea, its the fact that they allowed them selves to become morally bankrupt and corrupt that soured him on it. Also, the new SHIELD is tiny enough that, if he wanted to, he could effect real change in it, without even formally joining its ranks, just because Coulson is a huge Cap fanboy.
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Dec 19, 2014 01:09
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ToastyPotato posted:I'm not trying to say he would be OK with Coulson's current SHIELD. I am saying he would obviously be ok with SOME KIND of SHIELD. As you mentioned, he obviously wasn't against the basic concept as designed by Peggy and co. Basically, a new arm of the government to deal with super threats, as opposed to forcing the military or the CIA to also deal with that stuff. A department specializing in super-threats isn't inherently a bad idea, its the fact that they allowed them selves to become morally bankrupt and corrupt that soured him on it. Could it be that the "other thing" Mack and Morse were talking about is yet another infiltration, but this time on behalf of Cap? He hears that SHIELD are still operating through various channels, not to mention Talbot on the news channels, but no one has come to him to explain what's going on. He does hear that they appear to be doing good so sends in people he trusts to evaluate the situation and report back to him, he maybe even knows Coulson's still kicking at this point.
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Dec 19, 2014 01:16
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ToastyPotato posted:I'm not trying to say he would be OK with Coulson's current SHIELD. I am saying he would obviously be ok with SOME KIND of SHIELD. As you mentioned, he obviously wasn't against the basic concept as designed by Peggy and co. Basically, a new arm of the government to deal with super threats, as opposed to forcing the military or the CIA to also deal with that stuff. My perspective is that's not a "kind of SHIELD." That's an entirely different sort of organization it turns out. But I don't want this to be about semantics and I appreciate your broader point that Cap isn't opposed to the basic concept of fighting super threats. I think the important idea is that he would not be comfortable with the fighting super threats by re-creating an organization called SHIELD with one of its former senior members in charge, which is how we got into this conversation.
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Dec 19, 2014 01:17
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#NotAllSHIELD
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Dec 19, 2014 01:25
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Irn-Bru posted:Could it be that the "other thing" Mack and Morse were talking about is yet another infiltration, but this time on behalf of Cap? I think there are only a few options for who the other thing is:
I would be shocked if it wasn't an organisation that we already know exists I the mcu, and only slightly surprised if it already existed in the comics but not the mcu.
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Dec 19, 2014 01:51
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My bet is an infiltration by Stark coordinated by Maria Hill. As opposed to the avengers as a whole.
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Dec 19, 2014 06:43
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SwissArmyDruid posted:
That's all she was at first in the comics too. She only got the Director-ship because Stark knew it would piss off the US government. With some of the elements from that story coming up in the movies it's still entirely possible for her character to grow a bit, even though Coulson doesn't seem to have a high opinion of her in this season.
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Dec 19, 2014 07:38
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:That's all she was at first in the comics too. She only got the Director-ship because Stark knew it would piss off the US government. With some of the elements from that story coming up in the movies it's still entirely possible for her character to grow a bit, even though Coulson doesn't seem to have a high opinion of her in this season. Well, she did want to hand over the remaining SHIELD assets to the US Air Force...
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Dec 19, 2014 07:41
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Totally going to this over the weekend. I want to walk around inside a full-sized Quinjet. http://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/events/2014/12/17/marvel-experience-brings-superheroes-life-phoenix/20419541/
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Dec 19, 2014 09:07
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Boogaleeboo posted:No, his entire point is it's a bad idea. Period, the end. There's no such thing as a better, now "good" SHIELD. You can't make a fascist and oppressive secret police force into something good no matter how shiny you buff it up. It should not exist on any level. Even Coulson's SHIELD is running around making major decisions about the fate of humanity all on their own with no insight from anyone. What gave them the right? Who do they answer to? When they make mistakes they get to, what, say "Our bad" to each other and go on to claim the authority to make them in the future too? Just because they are good people doesn't mean it's not superior for the country to have Talbot throw them all in a deep dark hole until they learn to cut the poo poo. lol
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Dec 19, 2014 19:49
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Wash your dick. e: vvvv Hey man, the A-Team kept it small. It's not like Face found the Star-Child in a dumpster and decided the fate of human existence by raising it himself. Although if he did, he probably wouldn't have hosed it up as badly as SHIELD has hosed up some things. Mulva fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 19:55
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I bet you'd lock up the A Team too.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:56
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:That's all she was at first in the comics too. She only got the Director-ship because Stark knew it would piss off the US government. With some of the elements from that story coming up in the movies it's still entirely possible for her character to grow a bit, even though Coulson doesn't seem to have a high opinion of her in this season. It of opens the door for a SHIELD Civil War of sorts. 
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Dec 19, 2014 19:57
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Boogaleeboo posted:Even Coulson's SHIELD is running around making major decisions about the fate of humanity all on their own with no insight from anyone. What gave them the right? Who do they answer to? When they make mistakes they get to, what, say "Our bad" to each other and go on to claim the authority to make them in the future too? What "major decision that asffect all of humanity" has Coulson's team ever made? That's literally never happened. Unless you think they were unjustified in trying to stop Hydra from using the oblisk.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:31
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They stopped Lorelei from taking over. Maybe Earth wanted to get taken over! Did Coulson even consider that?!
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Dec 19, 2014 20:47
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JT Smiley posted:What "major decision that asffect all of humanity" has Coulson's team ever made? That's literally never happened. Unless you think they were unjustified in trying to stop Hydra from using the oblisk. Preventing the activation of superpower-causing latent DNA in the human genome is a major decision that affects all of humanity. This is true whether or not the decision to do so was justified, which is an entirely separate consideration.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:49
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Sir Kodiak posted:Preventing the activation of superpower-causing latent DNA in the human genome is a major decision that affects all of humanity. This is true whether or not the decision to do so was justified, which is an entirely separate consideration. No one in SHIELD had any idea about what the obelisk would do when brought to the temple. All they knew was that Hydra wanted to bring it there as a result of their interest in WMDs. That is a perfectly valid reason for them to try and stop it right there. The only ones saying anything about what might happen were Calvin and Raina, and both their judgment and credibility is questionable.
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Dec 19, 2014 21:21
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Also, Coulson offered to work with the US Government but they are pretty insistent on arresting SHIELD so his options were to be arrested and let HYDRA get the Obelisk, or deal with it themselves.
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Dec 19, 2014 21:24
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Okay? The question was what major decision they had made. Arguing that a major decision was made correctly doesn't change the magnitude of that decision.
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Dec 19, 2014 21:29
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It was more that they didn't have a choice. It's not like they made the decision to deal with HYDRA and the Obelisk on their own because they wanted to be fascist or dicks or something. They literally had no choice and they even reached out for help and failed.
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Dec 19, 2014 21:30
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Slashrat posted:No one in SHIELD had any idea about what the obelisk would do when brought to the temple. All they knew was that Hydra wanted to bring it there as a result of their interest in WMDs. ToastyPotato posted:Also, Coulson offered to work with the US Government but they are pretty insistent on arresting SHIELD so his options were to be arrested and let HYDRA get the Obelisk, or deal with it themselves. HYDRA trying to get the mysterious alien WMD? That's not just a random thing that is happening, that's a direct result of old SHIELD loving up and putting the world in danger. Coulson's team stopping HYDRA there is just a matter of stepping up and saying "We let this happen, it's our moral duty to fix it."
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Dec 19, 2014 21:53
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Sir Kodiak posted:Okay? The question was what major decision they had made. Arguing that a major decision was made correctly doesn't change the magnitude of that decision. We're not arguing that they made the right choice in the decision you describe. We're arguing that the decision you describe didn't happen. At no point did they make, or could have made, a decision on whether to cause or prevent manifestion of superpowers in random people across the world, BECAUSE they did not know, and had no reason to think, that it was something that might happen as a result of anything they choose to do or not do. They did make a decision to stop Hydra from acquiring and using a supposed WMD upon the world, which is something they had good cause to expect, and that was a decision they had every right to make as likely targets of that same WMD. Slashrat fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 21:58
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