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Elmo Oxygen posted:It's not about comparing prices of different games. It's about calling D&D's price a "barrier to entry" when the price of the entry level product is literally zero dollars. The existence of a free demo doesn't mean that the price of the full game is no barrier to entry.
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Dec 19, 2014 02:35
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AlphaDog posted:The existence of a free demo doesn't mean that the price of the full game is no barrier to entry. True, but the demo is a full playable game by itself. That said it's not very well presented as a demo- it's not really geared to newbies, with no art, not much flavor, it's more like the source code.
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Dec 19, 2014 02:49
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Maxwell Lord posted:True, but the demo is a full playable game by itself. It feels like a really awkward attempt to substitute for 3.X having had d20srd.org and d20pfsrd.com around for years and years by now.
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Dec 19, 2014 03:45
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FMguru posted:Who, exactly, is the target audience for this $150 slab of mediocrity? Mike Mearls.
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Dec 19, 2014 04:51
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Has anyone else noticed in HotDQ, that episodes 2 through 5 basically lead the heroes in a giant circle across the Sword Coast? I don't know why this is the thing that bothers me most about HotDQ when there's so much wrong with it, but it is.
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Dec 19, 2014 04:54
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Elmo Oxygen posted:It's not about comparing prices of different games. It's about calling D&D's price a "barrier to entry" when the price of the entry level product is literally zero dollars. The entry level product isn't that $20 box labeled STARTER SET. It's all your 3x books, five years of pent-up frustrations, and EN World.
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Dec 19, 2014 05:02
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Generally the D&D Attack Wing stuff features more expensive boxes of the dragon minis that released with 5E. My store marked them down by a lot because essentially all the extras you get out of an Attack Wing box are some tiles and (I think) a stat card. they're made by the exact same company, and you're focusing more on the dnd ones because they put a bunch of consistently larger and more dynamic minis in the set, most of the pathfinder minis are the exact same garbage as the dnd ones
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Dec 19, 2014 05:19
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If the DM is good, the game will be good. And with D&D, if you don't have a DM, you don't have a game. The number of DMs is the bottleneck limiting how fast D&D can grow. Being a good DM is hard, understandably; in addition to creativity and the ability to be a good host, you need solid, broad knowledge of the game. Which D&D products were designed to teach the game? (The video games. Video games are the greatest teaching tool ever invented, completely on accident. Video games grew the market for D&D, but then they stopped making them.) It's hard to design a product for newcomers because it's imagine what it's like to not know something once you've learned it well enough to make something like it. But it's also hard to design a product for experts, because experts are very particular and it takes an even greater expertise to synthesizes the common elements of their wishes. In both cases, the designer must make something that the target audience doesn't know they want; newcomers obviously don't know enough about it to even guess at their tastes, and experts can just make what they think they want for themselves. So here's the big question with the obvious answer: who is 5e for? The answer to the riddle is found in the other difference between products for newcomers and products for experts: competition. You attract newcomers and grow your market by competing with entirely different phyla of product, completely unrelated pastimes and hobbies, like for instance video games, gardening, and having a life. Experts, on the other hand, need to be won over from similar products offered by competitors within your field. D&D is already the biggest fish in the pond. Who's there to steal market share from? Hold that thought. But here's what I just can't figure out. The story goes that Wizards of the Coast noticed the a major trend: all these superhero movies and fantasy TV shows and monster novels are growing the market for nerdy and nerd-peripheral media, so the time is right for a venerable and iconic dork-brand to come out with a new edition, draw in these geek-curious new customers and show them why RPGs are good enough to be worth getting shoved in a locker, and ride this rising tide all the way to the bank. Faced with this mandate, what does that baboon Mearls do? He makes a game designed to steal customers from Pathfinder.
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Dec 19, 2014 07:39
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Babylon Astronaut posted:I'm not illiterate, but I could not read the 2e AD&D books. The 3e books made me take a long break from D&D and nearly ended RPGs for me. My theory is that after Mentzer basic was released the grog backlash ended the days of having the book explain how to play the game to you. A quick google search will get you hundreds of hits saying that Mentzer "talked down to them." All the core books since then have been reference books. I do not believe people can learn the game solely from reading the core material. That said, NEXT is on the simple end of D&D games even if I consider it a medium-to-high complexity RPG. Look at Mentzer basic, an 8 year old can read and understand exactly how to play the game an hour. Thing isn't even 100 pages. I thought it was weird that despite having played the Black Isle and Neverwinter Nights CRPGs and reading lots of Dragonlance books as a teen and listening to the Crit Juice podcast and reading grognards.txt, I never really got D&D as a TRPG. It always sounded like this vaguely distant thing with a bunch of arcane rules and that's why you needed a computer game to enjoy them. It wasn't until I stumbled onto this: The GURPS Megathread posted:Almost everything in the game uses the same dice roll. You roll 3d6 against some number; lower is better. You roll low, you succeed. You roll high, you fail. You roll an 18, you fail in a particularly interesting way. Probably more interesting for everyone else than you, but that can't be helped. Bongo Bill posted:The answer to the riddle is found in the other difference between products for newcomers and products for experts: competition. You attract newcomers and grow your market by competing with entirely different phyla of product, completely unrelated pastimes and hobbies, like for instance video games, gardening, and having a life. Experts, on the other hand, need to be won over from similar products offered by competitors within your field. I can't help but shake the feeling that D&D is too much of a 500-pound elephant within the genre to simply be just the one game. Like, okay, 4E was focused a lot on making the tactical combat really good, but it's somewhat understandable that people would be turned off by it if that's not what they want to play but it's the only new thing that's labeled as D&D (setting aside the fact that Paizo fanned the flames of people thinking that's not what they want to play).
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Dec 19, 2014 07:52
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Bongo Bill posted:But here's what I just can't figure out. The story goes that Wizards of the Coast noticed the a major trend: all these superhero movies and fantasy TV shows and monster novels are growing the market for nerdy and nerd-peripheral media, so the time is right for a venerable and iconic dork-brand to come out with a new edition, draw in these geek-curious new customers and show them why RPGs are good enough to be worth getting shoved in a locker, and ride this rising tide all the way to the bank. I think this succinctly explains the problem with the 5e development process. But then, consider this: the rules market to grogs, but the uninitiated have no investment in things like Wizard supremacy or Saving Throws. In theory you could write the rules to appeal to grogs and then market the game to appeal to the masses but I feel like they still haven't really figured out how to market DnD. Which is funny because videogames pretty much have worked every time and it's not really a mystery. Dear WotC. Make a videogame.
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Dec 19, 2014 08:21
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Mendrian posted:Someone make another game like Neverwinter Nights.
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Dec 19, 2014 09:33
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Mendrian posted:I think this succinctly explains the problem with the 5e development process. But then, consider this: the rules market to grogs, but the uninitiated have no investment in things like Wizard supremacy or Saving Throws. In theory you could write the rules to appeal to grogs and then market the game to appeal to the masses but I feel like they still haven't really figured out how to market DnD. Which is funny because videogames pretty much have worked every time and it's not really a mystery.
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Dec 19, 2014 09:40
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Jake Solomon using the XCOM:EU/EW engine to make a 4E video game would be a match made in heaven. (on that thought, poo poo, does goon-made OpenXCOM support forced movement? Maybe someone can do a total conversion ...)
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Dec 19, 2014 09:47
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Mendrian posted:I think this succinctly explains the problem with the 5e development process. But then, consider this: the rules market to grogs, but the uninitiated have no investment in things like Wizard supremacy or Saving Throws. In theory you could write the rules to appeal to grogs and then market the game to appeal to the masses but I feel like they still haven't really figured out how to market DnD. Which is funny because videogames pretty much have worked every time and it's not really a mystery. I'm not a professional RPG designer or marketeer, but I strongly suspect that the prevailing attitude at D&D Headquarters is that D&D's marketing is, essentially, being D&D. To a much more substantial majority of people who wind up playing RPGs than those who get really deeply into the hobby and go learning about different systems and have really nerdy arguments over resolution mechanics on the internet, D&D is roleplaying games. They're interchangeable, one and the same. Your buddy Steve has no idea what the gently caress a Fiasco is, but if you say "hey, you wanna try playing some D&D?" he at least probably has an inkling of what that is gained via cultural osmosis if nothing else. tl;dr The D&D team is pretty much coasting on the brand name, which still carries a not-insubstantial amount of weight within the hobby, but I'm highly, highly doubtful that we're going to see a new D&D Renaissance complete with Baldur's Gate-esque video games or cartoons or whatever other "grow the brand" ideas people have. There'll always be Drizzt novels, but that's about it.
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Dec 19, 2014 09:59
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The D&D brand is in a really bad place right now; it's simply not big enough to draw in any of the major video game studios, but is seen as too big and valuable to pass off to any given indie studio. D&D needs to grow it's brand, but it has no way to DO it because it let itself fall into obsolescence. All the methods it COULD use to grow it's brand, it won't or can't, because that would piss off their current target audience. D&D is coasting off it's brand name, but it's a brand name not a single human being outside of the hobby gives a poo poo about.
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Dec 19, 2014 11:19
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Only if it doesn't have those lovely radial menus. What the gently caress was with that?
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Dec 19, 2014 11:29
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Mendrian posted:I think this succinctly explains the problem with the 5e development process. But then, consider this: the rules market to grogs, but the uninitiated have no investment in things like Wizard supremacy or Saving Throws. In theory you could write the rules to appeal to grogs and then market the game to appeal to the masses but I feel like they still haven't really figured out how to market DnD. Which is funny because videogames pretty much have worked every time and it's not really a mystery.
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Dec 19, 2014 15:33
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4th was an obvious choice for a turn based strategy, but the closest they ever seemed to come to that was a facebook game.
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Dec 19, 2014 15:37
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Power Player posted:Make a 4th Ed video game instead, please. This please.
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Dec 19, 2014 15:38
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You guys do know that Neverwinter exists right? It's a 4e free to play mmo set in Neverwinter. It's not the most popular game on the market, but it's a solid game now and has a decent player base.
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Dec 19, 2014 15:59
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Elblanco posted:You guys do know that Neverwinter exists right? It's a 4e free to play mmo set in Neverwinter. It's not the most popular game on the market, but it's a solid game now and has a decent player base.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:10
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Elblanco posted:You guys do know that Neverwinter exists right? It's a 4e free to play mmo set in Neverwinter. It's not the most popular game on the market, but it's a solid game now and has a decent player base. It has basically nothing to do with 4e.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:13
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Power Player posted:It is also not a turn-based strategy game. Like, the BG games were basically straight ports of the 3.0 rules. Why can't we get a game that is more or less a port of the 4.0/Essentials rules? I thought only IWD2 was a port of 3.0. The rest of them were 2e.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:13
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djw175 posted:I thought only IWD2 was a port of 3.0. The rest of them were 2e.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:15
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djw175 posted:I thought only IWD2 was a port of 3.0. The rest of them were 2e.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:16
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Elblanco posted:You guys do know that Neverwinter exists right? It's a 4e free to play mmo set in Neverwinter. It's not the most popular game on the market, but it's a solid game now and has a decent player base. Except it doesn't have anything to do with 4e other than superficial power names. Theres no mechanical similarity which is mostly the opposite of what I would want in a 4e game.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:19
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ProfessorCirno posted:The D&D brand is in a really bad place right now; it's simply not big enough to draw in any of the major video game studios, but is seen as too big and valuable to pass off to any given indie studio. Actually the D&D movie rights are currently being argued about. If Hasbro gets the rights back they could do a movie and that could help a lot.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:44
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gradenko_2000 posted:Jake Solomon using the XCOM:EU/EW engine to make a 4E video game would be a match made in heaven. Jesus Christ. Now that I'm thinking about it I'm suddenly realizing how well the core actions of 4e - Move, Standard, Minor - fit extraordinarily well into XCOM:EU/EW (since the game is basically run as Move/Standard, with Standard taking up your entire turn but also giving you the flexibility to move once, then standard, or just move twice). That might actually be a fairly awesome idea, to tell the truth.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:51
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Yeah, you even have once-per-encounter powers like the Rocket Launcher.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:08
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Movement abilities, auras, effects, limited use objects. Just needs a more developed melee system.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:11
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GOONS- It's me, the guy who played 3.5e and Pathfinder throughout the entire lifespan of 4e, then switched to FATE. If I want to dial back to D&D once the FATE campaign has run its course, should I buy into 5e or just invest in like the full line of 4e Essentials books? The FATE campaign is going okay, but I think I'm not really doing the system justice. I get weird GM AP, and I'm not super great at parsing out things into in-game actions. On the other hand, I'm pretty good at running D&D-style encounters with crunchy movement and pedantic auditing of cover and lighting conditions. So I kinda want to go back.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:15
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LuiCypher posted:Jesus Christ. Now that I'm thinking about it I'm suddenly realizing how well the core actions of 4e - Move, Standard, Minor - fit extraordinarily well into XCOM:EU/EW (since the game is basically run as Move/Standard, with Standard taking up your entire turn but also giving you the flexibility to move once, then standard, or just move twice). XCOM actually has a few minor actions, too -- activating Ghost Armor and activating Run and Gun are the two that spring to mind. But you need to do them before you use your last action.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:18
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Pudding, everyone here will say 4e. With a varying number of caveats. I'm sure you can get a big bundle of 4e books at deep discount, as well as various pirated online support options. The latter, in my mind, is the biggest problem with 4e. Its a chore to run without some kind of database.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:22
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deadly_pudding posted:GOONS- I wouldn't get the essentials books, they're not the best ones - they were kinda Mearls' first attempt to backpedal towards 3e by stripping as much complexity from martial classes as possible while adding stuff to magical ones. (EG: The Essentials fighter and rogue replacements have no daily powers, and the Essentials wizard replacement is exactly the same as the core one, but with extra class features) If I was starting 4e and wanted books instead of electronic media, I would get the PHB, the DMG, and the Monster Vault (avoid the Monster Manual and Monster Manual 2, the monsters in there have lots of HP and don't do much damage, so fights take a long time without feeling threatening - the Monster Manual 3 is where they patched the maths to be a lot better).
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Dec 19, 2014 17:22
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FMguru posted:Who, exactly, is the target audience for this $150 slab of mediocrity? Solid Jake posted:Mike Mearls. Echoing this sentiment. Every major choice in the core rules is a reflection of the things that Mike Mearls likes, with elements he didn't care about being sacrificed on the Altar of Grog. Speaking about Magic: In 4E, magic is omnipresent and everywhere, especially in itemization for the players. Wealth by level is a necessity for the tight math of the system, and while you don't have to be completely decked out in magic items past the Big Three (Armor, Neck, Weapon(s)), plenty of combos only work with specific itemization. A high level 4E character can expect to have a dozen different magic items. In NEXT, you can only have 3 attuned items. This makes magic "rarer" - for those who can't just cast spells. Magical effects are harder to come by unless you are a Wizard. Expectations of what kind of items you are going to get also differ. In 4E, the wishlist system and robust wealth-by-level system means players have a much stronger control over magic items than in previous editions. A lot of DMs complained about this sense of entitlement and worried that the wonder had gone out of magic items. Now we are returning to a forced-rarity situation -it doesn't make any of the items, though, inherently more wondrous or magical. Just rarer. So far, aside from the artifacts none are truly character defining or exceptionally interesting. And the Artifacts are all spell effects and stuff to convey how they are powerful; they let you act like a powerful spellcaster. There are personalities and detriments and drawbacks and boons, but they are flavorful rather than defining the power of the item. That is a pretty big sea-change. I don't think it accomplished what was desired, because everything is still "As per the blank name spell." As long as magic is limited by what spell effects can produce, honestly, it will never feel truly wondrous or cool to me.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:35
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The Dark Sun and Eberron stuff was some of the best stuff they put out for 4e. I think if you aren't going to do one or the other, you're doing it wrong.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:35
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For all the complaining about player entitlement in magic item wish-lists, I never had a player who ever made one. I would just toss a flaming longsword into an adventure and think, "Yeah, that'll be a cool reward for the party fighter".
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Dec 19, 2014 17:40
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I remember people complaining how 4e NPCs do not work like PCs creation-wise. It always sounded silly to me - who the hell wants to go through character creation for every single npc?
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Dec 19, 2014 17:43
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deadly_pudding posted:If I want to dial back to D&D once the FATE campaign has run its course, should I buy into 5e or just invest in like the full line of 4e Essentials books? If tactical combat is your thing, there really aren't any games that compare to 4e. It's hands down the best there is for dynamic, crunchy, gridded combat. If you go that route, I'd actually suggest just picking up a Rules Compendium and an Insider sub. You end up with all the rules for the entire line for very little investment. Then if you end up liking the game you can pick up any books you might like. The two Monster Vaults are solid choices since while you do already have the rules on Insider, you also get an easy table reference and the neat monster pogs. If the you don't think you or your group would get a kick out of the tactical combat or the "MtG deck construction" feel to character creation (not literally of course, but a big part of the fun of 4e - and 3e for that matter - character building is finding cool ability synergies), and you'd prefer a return to a more 3e style game yet still wanted something new then 5e could be for you.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:44
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Gort posted:For all the complaining about player entitlement in magic item wish-lists, I never had a player who ever made one. I would just toss a flaming longsword into an adventure and think, "Yeah, that'll be a cool reward for the party fighter". If I ran 4e again, I would just introduce built in math fix bonuses, limit magic items to about 3 per player, and not have magic items give bonuses - powers only.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:47
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